Doesn't read that way to me. Many tribal peoples believed that the dead would be returned to the spirit world, presumably to live on as spirits.LuckyR wrote:Uummm... I was specifically refering to tribal elders/ancestors.Greta wrote: (Nested quote removed.)
Have you forgotten about the spirits of tribal ancestors?
Immortality as a reward in religion
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Re: Immortality as a reward in religion
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Re: Immortality as a reward in religion
You said that the original meaning of the idea of immortality is lost in transmission. Are religions not that transmission? Are not the generally religious the receivers of an accepted transmission bar what is supposedly "lost"? You yourself has stated that 'we' (presumably, by 'we', you mean followers of religion) think we understand, but in fact "actually" do not "at all". What has become the "transmission" you spoke of is the 'language' I have alluded to. The language consistent with the imagery associated with downtown beliefs of heaven or hell.Quotidian wrote:Got any citations?
-- Updated August 7th, 2016, 2:28 am to add the following --
My point is I think, effectively, we are arguing the same point. Religion is surely what it, is rather than what genuine inquirers think that it could or should be if particular teachings were properly understood. It is not as if the pope, for example, will be explaining the supposedly "lost" items of what he transmits.
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Re: Immortality as a reward in religion
So I'm saying that I don't think that is a fair description of what is actually intended by (for example) the New Testament. Do you think it is?To exist forever, seeing either people and civilisations to wither and die or to be forced to endure them indefinitely is to me quite horrifying. ...Why do you think is this state of existence offered as a reward in so many instances? What features would a human mind have to possess to even withstand it and not go insane over the time?
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Re: Immortality as a reward in religion
No, it is a very simplistic interpretation. It looks like an even simpler interpretation than general downtown religion interpretations as conventionally transmitted.Quotidian wrote:When I said 'citations', what I mean was, can you cite any Biblical texts that say that 'eternal life' means anything like this expression in the original post:
So I'm saying that I don't think that is a fair description of what is actually intended by (for example) the New Testament. Do you think it is?To exist forever, seeing either people and civilisations to wither and die or to be forced to endure them indefinitely is to me quite horrifying. ...Why do you think is this state of existence offered as a reward in so many instances? What features would a human mind have to possess to even withstand it and not go insane over the time?
" Revelation 22:1-5 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever."
Still complete babble, but I can't reconcile this example with the original post of this topic.
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Re: Immortality as a reward in religion
By way of comparison, there are some references to 'the deathless' in the early Buddhist texts (known as the Pali Canon). For example this sutta (thread) reports a conversation between the Buddha and one of the monks, Sariputta, about 'the deathless'. The thrust of the conversation is that the goal of the Buddhist discipline is 'the deathless'.
There are a few comparable discussions elsewhere in the texts. Again, interpretation of the meaning is challenging, but it plainly doesn't mean not dying physically, as the historical Buddha died (and unlike in Christianity, was not said to have 'risen').
-- Updated August 7th, 2016, 2:12 am to add the following --
Sorry [url=http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html] this is the link parsed correctly, I am not able to edit the above post.
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Re: Immortality as a reward in religion
My second point was that science too promises human immortality, to be achieved through the conquest and control of nature, which is at least as otherworldly and potentially destructive a proposition as the religious one - we have seen what it is doing to our environment.NewAsc: The question I would like to pose is why do you think immortality is so tantalising and in one way or another almost omnipresent aspect of religion.
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Re: Immortality as a reward in religion
Even if humans behaved more wisely they could never have avoided sustainability issues. It's always been a matter of when, not if. Based on the doomsday scenarios worried about by seemingly every known generation of humans, the sustainability problem appears to have long been instinctively understood.Felix wrote:My second point was that science too promises human immortality, to be achieved through the conquest and control of nature, which is at least as otherworldly and potentially destructive a proposition as the religious one - we have seen what it is doing to our environment.
This sense of doom very much plays into interest in immortality. Humans are problem solvers and belief in the afterlife is one solution for the problem of death.
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Re: Immortality as a reward in religion
No doubt. I am not trying to explain every circumstance, rather the psychological convenience of having a pacification tool of theoretical delayed reward to compensate for inequitable distribution of resources in the here and now.Greta wrote:Doesn't read that way to me. Many tribal peoples believed that the dead would be returned to the spirit world, presumably to live on as spirits.LuckyR wrote: (Nested quote removed.)
Uummm... I was specifically refering to tribal elders/ancestors.
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Re: Immortality as a reward in religion
In as much as science is merely an extension of the ego and also as a consequence of population growth (of egos). Man has always sought to control nature even if just to eat and be warm so as not to die of hunger or cold. It is 'scientific' to learn the habits of a prey in order to calculate (science) how to take down that prey.Felix wrote:grunth, I was only saying that the NewAsc's opening statement, "many religions promise immortality as a reward to its worshippers," is incorrect. It is not immortality itself that is promised, that's a given religion tenet, it is how one will spend one's immortal existence if one meets the particular conditions the religion has set forth, whether one will spend it in a heaven or hell, reincarnate or attain nirvana, etc.
The statement "immortality as a reward to its worshipers", to me, already covers what type of immortality it will be because of the definition "worshipers". They are worshiping the god and/or messengers of that religion, are they not? By doing so are they not already on the 'right' side therefore expect to be on the 'right' side presumably 'up there' somewhere?
My second point was that science too promises human immortality, to be achieved through the conquest and control of nature, which is at least as otherworldly and potentially destructive a proposition as the religious one - we have seen what it is doing to our environment.
-- Updated August 8th, 2016, 5:12 pm to add the following --
The statement "immortality as a reward to its worshipers", to me, already covers what type of immortality it will be because of the definition "worshipers". They are worshiping the god and/or messengers of that religion, are they not? By doing so are they not already on the 'right' side therefore expect to be on the 'right' side presumably 'up there' somewhere?Felix wrote:grunth, I was only saying that the NewAsc's opening statement, "many religions promise immortality as a reward to its worshippers," is incorrect. It is not immortality itself that is promised, that's a given religion tenet, it is how one will spend one's immortal existence if one meets the particular conditions the religion has set forth, whether one will spend it in a heaven or hell, reincarnate or attain nirvana, etc.
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Re: Immortality as a reward in religion
I hadn't thought about restorative justice. Yes, definitely another attraction of afterlives. My focus was entirely on the fear of annihilation aspect; Freud would have had something to say about that!LuckyR wrote:No doubt. I am not trying to explain every circumstance, rather the psychological convenience of having a pacification tool of theoretical delayed reward to compensate for inequitable distribution of resources in the here and now.Greta wrote: (Nested quote removed.)
Doesn't read that way to me. Many tribal peoples believed that the dead would be returned to the spirit world, presumably to live on as spirits.
My attitude about death is very much one of "No no, wait! I haven't got my act together yet!". Of course, if one does have their act together it'd be a bugger to snuff it soon afterwards. Maybe having a good run with one's head in an optimal place would leave one more content about the idea of death? A mindset that can be content with the idea of "enough", that is not insatiable, would seem to be one that can more readily accept death.
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Re: Immortality as a reward in religion
I'm going to troll you to say I agree with that.Greta wrote:
I hadn't thought about restorative justice. Yes, definitely another attraction of afterlives. My focus was entirely on the fear of annihilation aspect; Freud would have had something to say about that!
My attitude about death is very much one of "No no, wait! I haven't got my act together yet!". Of course, if one does have their act together it'd be a bugger to snuff it soon afterwards. Maybe having a good run with one's head in an optimal place would leave one more content about the idea of death? A mindset that can be content with the idea of "enough", that is not insatiable, would seem to be one that can more readily accept death.
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Re: Immortality as a reward in religion
It had to happen eventually, Grunt. Weight of numbers :)Grunth wrote:I'm going to troll you to say I agree with that.
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Re: Immortality as a reward in religion
Spose. I'm sure I can find a way to live with it.Greta wrote:It had to happen eventually, Grunt. Weight of numbersGrunth wrote:I'm going to troll you to say I agree with that.
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Re: Immortality as a reward in religion
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Re: Immortality as a reward in religion
The answer is that we are programmed by evolution to fear death (so that we won't try to fly off a cliff). It isn't a rational thing, it's emotional. There's something very comforting about that idea that we won't have to experience an end to our existence. Religions are popular because they offer the possibility of lessening several fears - that of being alone in a random universe, without anyone watching out for us, and the fear of death.NewAsc wrote: The question I would like to pose is why do you think immortality is so tantalising and in one way or another almost omnipresent aspect of religion.
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