Philosophical heckling

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Renee
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Philosophical heckling

Post by Renee »

I had been to secular Humanist meetings which had been constantly interrupted by fundamentalist religionists heckling the speakers.

How come it does not happen in reverse? Secular thinkers going to church, and interrupting the liturgy with objections, or pointing out self-contradictions in bible quotes at fundamentalist evangelical Sunday congregations?

Fair is fair. If the seculars can't have peace from the religious right, it ought to be also the other way.
Ignorance is power.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Philosophical heckling

Post by Burning ghost »

Maybe they just have better things to do with their time? No point in heckling the hecklers or we become just like them.

Does it say something in the bible about turning the other cheek?
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Dark Matter
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Re: Philosophical heckling

Post by Dark Matter »

Cool. it's called "karma."
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Sy Borg
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Re: Philosophical heckling

Post by Sy Borg »

Renee wrote:I had been to secular Humanist meetings which had been constantly interrupted by fundamentalist religionists heckling the speakers.

How come it does not happen in reverse? Secular thinkers going to church, and interrupting the liturgy with objections, or pointing out self-contradictions in bible quotes at fundamentalist evangelical Sunday congregations?
Because we would be ferociously abused and violently assaulted by adherents to "the religion of love".

Theists believe that they are in touch with the sacred and thus they believe their opinions are of value while those of secularists are simply nothing. Thus they feel justified in trampling over others, as they have done throughout history. Ganging up to destroy others is highly successful in terms of group selection; secularists have never been able to compete with theists and we remain under theistic control today.

We do not live in, and have never lived in, a secular society; theism faded somewhat but remains easily the dominant force in society. With about 80% of elected politicians in the US being religious, theists have continued to control world affairs for decades. Whether it's Confucianism, Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, Hinduism or Taoism, religion maintains control over public policy and socially. So theists heckling in a secular gathering would broadly be considered to simply be reasonable dissent, while atheists heckling in churches would be considered to be disgustingly disrespectful for failing to respect their worship.

This is ultimately about perceived value as a human being. Consider the reason why theists would not broadly be criticised for disrespect for their heckling and you will see how the game is played. To many theists, secularists are barely even human. To them we are nothing - dirt to be blown away at the time of judgement. I don't think secular society appreciates the extent to which they are dehumanised and objectified by theistic cabals in power.
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Renee
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Re: Philosophical heckling

Post by Renee »

Thank you, Greta, my thoughts exactly.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Philosophical heckling

Post by Sy Borg »

Thing is, if secularists demand the same respect for their gatherings, then they are accused of forming their own "atheist religion".

What I find most remarkable is that few other groups are as combative and warlike as adherents of the Abrahamic "religions of love", a term sounding increasingly Orwellian in context.
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Re: Philosophical heckling

Post by Dark Matter »

The demonization of theists and self-pity seems to be a fad among secularists nowadays. Pathetic. Their time would be better spent looking at themselves in a mirror rather than calling anyone with a different view ignorant, hypocritical, sexist, intolerant, xenophobic, homophobic, Islamophobic, racist and bigoted.

They use media to demonize and mock the religious and use the courts to destroy their businesses. What the hell do they expect? A pat on the head?
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Sy Borg
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Re: Philosophical heckling

Post by Sy Borg »

There you have an excellent example from the "religion of love". Zero respect. To DM we are just dirt. This is why he cannot see how his "tribe" invaded another's space - even though atheists don't respond in kind (yet). Why the imbalance? Because to many theists, like Dark Matter, atheists are not quite human, inferior beings.

So it's no concern to such theists that a humanist group might want to share their ideas and fellowship without gratuitous interference from antagonists. Why worry about the concerns of atheist scum, right? Secularists have always been hated and controlled by forceful theists and the situation remains the same today, despite the fact that most believers are probably benign.

The situation is changing very slowly, but actual secular (as opposed to faux secular) societies would seem at least a century away. Until then, theists will continue to be able to largely control and harass secularists while strategically claiming the opposite.
Dark Matter
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Re: Philosophical heckling

Post by Dark Matter »

Aw, the poor atheist. :cry:
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Burning ghost
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Re: Philosophical heckling

Post by Burning ghost »

Dark Matter wrote:Cool. it's called "karma."
Not in Buddhism.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Philosophical heckling

Post by Sy Borg »

Dark Matter wrote:Aw, the poor atheist. :cry:
More venom from the religion of love :lol:
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Burning ghost
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Re: Philosophical heckling

Post by Burning ghost »

There is a difference between antitheists and atheists.
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Renee
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Re: Philosophical heckling

Post by Renee »

Burning ghost wrote:There is a difference between antitheists and atheists.
This is very true. Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin, Matyas Rakosi were anti-theists; Socrates was (or can be argued that he was) an atheist.

I wonder if there are terms for those Christians who are opposed to other Christian faiths to the same strength as (respectively) anti-theists and atheists. For instance, Baptists will never accept other Christian faiths as true or as viable even; and in the age of protestantism actual wars were fought between protestant armies and RC armies. That's serious enough to be called an anti-theist I'd say. Anti-theist of the gods of competing Christian strains of faith.

Not only were wars started, but heretics were burnt at the stake by Christians because the alleged and then convicted heretics' Christian gods were regarded as false idols. Burning heretics is a form of anti-theism, I'd say, and nobody was an atheist involved in these events (which rampantly occurred in an era of Christian and world history).

So yes, burning ghost, I agree with you, anti-theism and atheism are quite different concepts. One simply believes there is no god or gods (atheism); anti-theists actively pursue the reversal of faith in others, from one god to another god, or from one or more gods to no gods.

I also agree that it is important to recognize that this difference exists.
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Surreptitious57
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Re: Philosophical heckling

Post by Surreptitious57 »

Not that I do but were I giving a speech and a fundamentalist was heckling me the right thing to do would be to give them the platform instead. I do not think that every one that disagrees with me is automatically ignorant or hypocritical or bigoted. Free
speech is for everyone not just those whose voice I like the sound of. So I listen to all opinion across the spectrum. Even if you
are ignorant or hypocritical or bigoted you still have a right to be heard the same as anyone else. No one should be denied this
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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Burning ghost
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Re: Philosophical heckling

Post by Burning ghost »

I am a "theist" in one sense (semantically complex and possibly misleading for me to say that given the personal way I view the concept "god"). I am also an "atheist" in another sense. And I am also an "antitheist" in another sense.

No matter what you say someone will oppose you. You can refute what they say, argue and try and convert them, or you can simply try and understand and see if you can find a fresh perspective. Regardless of what you choose to do you always fall prey to each of these because you are merely human with mere human judgementality.

That is my judgement anyway! Take it as a pat on the back or a kick up the **** ... your choice not mine ;)
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