Philosophical heckling

[Renee]

Not that I do but were I giving a speech and a fundamentalist was heckling me the right thing to do would be to give them the platform instead. I do not think that every one that disagrees with me is automatically ignorant or hypocritical or bigoted. Free
speech is for everyone not just those whose voice I like the sound of. So I listen to all opinion across the spectrum. Even if you
are ignorant or hypocritical or bigoted you still have a right to be heard the same as anyone else. No one should be denied this

So you agree that in the middle of a religious sermon a secular person should be able to stand up, go to the pulpit, take the stand, and give a speech while the priest, or minister, is standing aside, patiently waiting for the atheist to finish his point in the middle of the liturgy or mass or worship.

In my experience this somehow does not happen. Maybe you, Surreptitious57, can help it to make happen.

[Surreptitious57]

I am only saying what would be the right thing to do if it happened to me. And your example is not equivalent because although churches are public places they are specifically for theists. So any atheist going there to heckle would be completely out of order

[Fooloso4]

Renee:

I had been to secular Humanist meetings which had been constantly interrupted by fundamentalist religionists heckling the speakers.

There are several groups around that believe in a confrontational form of religious practice. One that has gained a foothold in some universities in the U.S. is the Christian apologetics led by William Lane Craig. Like the sophists of ancient Greece he teaches how to win arguments. They show up here once in awhile and are easy to spot because they all use the same arguments and tactics. Here is a group led by a guy who calls himself “General” James Green. He calls for militant action against satan, but I do not know what form this action takes. The Salvation Army they ain’t:

http://www.aggressivechristianity.net/a ... litant.htm

Of course there is always the KKK but see too the wiki article entitled Christian terrorism for other groups and activities.

How come it does not happen in reverse?

For the same reason Christianity is (was?) no longer like Islam. Under the guidance of the Enlightenment philosophers Christianity was tamed through secular reason and the value of tolerance.


It is not just Fox News and the war on Christmas. Many Christians, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, have been persuaded to perceive themselves as the victims of persecution.

[Sy Borg]

And your example is not equivalent because although churches are public places they are specifically for theists. So any atheist going there to heckle would be completely out of order

Isn't a humanist meeting for humanists? This is a good example of how we innocently and automatically confer greater status and value to theists than secularists, as though we believe them and their opinions to be more valuable and important.

[Surreptitious57]

I value opinions that are based upon reason or logic rather than on who is imparting them. I do not accord greater status to theists but I do try to treat everyone equally. My own biases notwithstanding. It is not perfect of course but I find that over time I become more open to alternative viewpoints. Not necessarily agreeing with them. But just acknowledging that they exist alongside my own

[Dark Matter]

And your example is not equivalent because although churches are public places they are specifically for theists. So any atheist going there to heckle would be completely out of order

Isn't a humanist meeting for humanists? This is a good example of how we innocently and automatically confer greater status and value to theists than secularists, as though we believe them and their opinions to be more valuable and important.

Why?

[LuckyR]

I had been to secular Humanist meetings which had been constantly interrupted by fundamentalist religionists heckling the speakers.

How come it does not happen in reverse? Secular thinkers going to church, and interrupting the liturgy with objections, or pointing out self-contradictions in bible quotes at fundamentalist evangelical Sunday congregations?

Because we would be ferociously abused and violently assaulted by adherents to "the religion of love".

Theists believe that they are in touch with the sacred and thus they believe their opinions are of value while those of secularists are simply nothing. Thus they feel justified in trampling over others, as they have done throughout history. Ganging up to destroy others is highly successful in terms of group selection; secularists have never been able to compete with theists and we remain under theistic control today.

We do not live in, and have never lived in, a secular society; theism faded somewhat but remains easily the dominant force in society. With about 80% of elected politicians in the US being religious, theists have continued to control world affairs for decades. Whether it's Confucianism, Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, Hinduism or Taoism, religion maintains control over public policy and socially. So theists heckling in a secular gathering would broadly be considered to simply be reasonable dissent, while atheists heckling in churches would be considered to be disgustingly disrespectful for failing to respect their worship.

This is ultimately about perceived value as a human being. Consider the reason why theists would not broadly be criticised for disrespect for their heckling and you will see how the game is played. To many theists, secularists are barely even human. To them we are nothing - dirt to be blown away at the time of judgement. I don't think secular society appreciates the extent to which they are dehumanised and objectified by theistic cabals in power.

The essence of theism is that the world is divided into Believers and Nonbelievers. An inherent Us vs Them scenario. Naturally, by definition all theists are Us, so they feel very justified in casting everyone else (in this example atheists) as members of Them and thus their treatment as second class citizens flows from that. One of the worst side effects of theism to my eye.

[Dark Matter]

The essence of theism is that the world is divided into Believers and Nonbelievers. An inherent Us vs Them scenario. Naturally, by definition all theists are Us, so they feel very justified in casting everyone else (in this example atheists) as members of Them and thus their treatment as second class citizens flows from that. One of the worst side effects of theism to my eye.

Er...what do you think you're doing here?

[Sy Borg]

(Nested quote removed.)

Isn't a humanist meeting for humanists? This is a good example of how we innocently and automatically confer greater status and value to theists than secularists, as though we believe them and their opinions to be more valuable and important.

Why?

An imbalance of respect and "sacredness". The concerns of theists are treated as critically important and sacred while those of secularists are treated as nothing; the subject matter and passion with which the humanists feel about the ideas were disregarded by the heckling theists of the OP.

[Renee]

Er...what do you think you're doing here?

I think I know what you are doing here... but I'd like to hear it in your own words.

[LuckyR]

The essence of theism is that the world is divided into Believers and Nonbelievers. An inherent Us vs Them scenario. Naturally, by definition all theists are Us, so they feel very justified in casting everyone else (in this example atheists) as members of Them and thus their treatment as second class citizens flows from that. One of the worst side effects of theism to my eye.

Er...what do you think you're doing here?

Uummm... pointing out that historically atheists feel that Believers are missing out a superior worldview while theists look at Nonbelievers as BEING inferior.

[Dark Matter]

(Nested quote removed.)

Er...what do you think you're doing here?

Uummm... pointing out that historically atheists feel that Believers are missing out a superior worldview while theists look at Nonbelievers as BEING inferior.

Nooo. You're creating an "us" vs. "them" scenario.

[Burning ghost]

If you reverse the positions here and read back the whole thread you may see this is little more than an arguing for the sake of arguing.

As far as I know most religious texts talk about empathy and self-reflection. The Us and Them mentality is used in political circles to shape idealologies.

Some people are crazy, some people are not. A crazy person may or may not be theist,atheist or anti-theist. Love is often regarded as a form of madness.

[Dark Matter]

What I see are a bunch of "victicrats" whining about how tough the real world can be.and continually looking for someone to blame...just like Obama.

[Sy Borg]

What I see are people placing themselves on pedestals and casting judgement on other contributors from on high. Remember, you have the option of addressing the topic.

What I see are a bunch of "victicrats" whining about how tough the real world can be.and continually looking for someone to blame...just like Obama.

I guess then the way to avoid being a victim is to go to religious gatherings during services and heckle the speakers. However, I suspect that heckling humanists would be far safer than heckling a church service. The latter would see one threatened and run out of town.

The religious have been playing the "poor us" game re: so-called secular society for as long as I have been alive at least, even though they have been unambiguously been running the world.