The almighty god vs omnipotence vs free will

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Renee
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The almighty god vs omnipotence vs free will

Post by Renee »

The almighty god vs omnipotence vs free will

There are two distinct aspects of the god in Abrahamic religions, which i wish to focus on: being almighty, and being omnipotent.

"Potential" in English means "able to do", "has the ability to do, but does not necessarily need to employ or act out this ability".

"Almighty" on the other hand, means "Has the might of all", that is, all-powerful, not only in potential, but in action as well.

Therefore an almighty god is necessarily omnipotent, but an omnipotent god is not necessarily almighty.

In fact, being almighty, by a god or by anything else, already and inherently presupposes the unit's omnipotence.

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So we can discard omnipotence, and focus on almight.

Almight means being the power of all. The power behind all. So every breath I take, i don't take, but god takes it for me (goes the theory, or the explanation). Every move I make, I don't make, but god makes, because he has the power of all. Every move of every person, every heavenly body, every machine, every animal, every atom, and every sub-atomic particle or waveform, every cat both alive and dead, is powered by god (the almighty god).

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Is will a power? The human free will, in the sense of Abrahamic religions? We do talk about will-power. That's semantics. I do believe that will is a form of power: I will, therefore I do. I choose not to do, my will is not employed. Or the will to make the choice is there, and I will to not do something, which takes less power than to do something, but still, it takes SOME power.

In this sense will is also an extension of god's power and action.

Therefore my will is not mine; it is a will powered by god.

Therefore I ought not to be made liable for my actions; for to decide to do something, or not, is powered by god, the almighty god; and the action itself is powered by god.

Therefore all sins, all good deeds, all ills, all nice things, that happen in the world, are done by god and by his will.

This makes free will impossible; and it takes criminal and spiritual liability away from people and vindicates them of their sins or crimes. With or without being Christians. This is by divine doctrine of the scriptures of Abrahamic religions.

Divine doctrine also states that Adam and Eve sinned; they committed the original sin; and they did that out of their free will.

The strong insistence on the existence of free will, and the logical impossibility of free will concurrent with the doctrine of an almighty god, nullifies the credibility of the scriptures. Because you can have one, or the other, but not both.

This line of reasoning is independent of faith, of atheism, of Abrahamic religions. It is purely based on reason, logic, and lingual meaning.
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Re: The almighty god vs omnipotence vs free will

Post by LuckyR »

No a bad exercise in the exploration of concrete words and ideas... though on a topic that is the opposite of concrete. Therefore you may be (and in my opinion are highly likely to be) overthinking the issue.

Let me explain. What is the best (and/or most common) answer to a 4 year old, to the question: where do babies come from? Almost always it would not include words like sperm and uterus. Basically in the interests of communication, the wording is dumbed down to the level of the audience. Well if a god is all that (and why wouldn't they be? They're gods, after all), the Iron Age audience is way, way less able to handle complex godly concepts than a 4 year old human is relative to an adult Modern age human, right? Therefore I wouldn't put too much stead in the exact definitions of Iron Age wording, just as a 4 year old shouldn't look in a medical dictionary for "wing wang".
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Re: The almighty god vs omnipotence vs free will

Post by Dark Matter »

I think the words you are looking for are `omnipotent` and `omnificent.`
RuleOnu
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Re: The almighty god vs omnipotence vs free will

Post by RuleOnu »

Renee,

Unfortunately, because of your liberties with terms you make several assertion fallacies.

First, "almighty" and "omnipotent" are synonymous, meaning they are defined the same, no distinctions between the two.
Almighty-having complete power; omnipotent.
Omnipotent-(of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything, almighty.
"Almighty" is also a name for God in Christian dialogue.

There are several ways of looking at "potential". For instance, in physics, potential is; the quantity determining the energy of mass in a gravitational field or of charge in an electric field. But, in everyday English, potential means; having or showing the capacity to become or develop into something in the future. (Potential sorta looses it's potential in a pre space-time state).

No, free will, in any context, means the capacity to exercise ones own will, free of force. From a philosophical perspective, free will, has to do with "moral responsibility". From a theistic perspective, specifically Christianity, free will can be taken to mean the ability to accept, or reject, God.

If we consider that God actualized, ("actualized" meaning, made a reality of) a world specifically for free will agents then God is not the cause of what happens, although God knows what will happen (omniscience), since free will is the cause.

Consider this as an analogy: In a baseball game, a pitcher, throws a ball which a batter strikes. Does the ball hit the bat, or does the bat hit the ball? In either case, the result is an audible "thunck". Now, what caused the "thunck", the pitcher throwing the ball, the batter swinging the bat, the ball striking the bat or the bat striking the ball? How about the guy who invented baseball? Pressure and displacement? Air?
Don't we all know what happens when a batter connects with a pitched ball?

This is termed, "causality". Which is the relationship between cause and effect.

The effect of God actualizing a world specifically for free will agents resulted in the world we experience today, in order for its reasoning agents to have free will.

In order for free will agents to exist, the world God made a reality of, can only logically exist as we experience the world existing.

If God is omnipotent, almighty, He can create a world in which free will agents are autonomous, free to accept or reject His existence and Will.
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Re: The almighty god vs omnipotence vs free will

Post by LuckyR »

RuleOnu wrote:Renee,

Unfortunately, because of your liberties with terms you make several assertion fallacies.

First, "almighty" and "omnipotent" are synonymous, meaning they are defined the same, no distinctions between the two.
Almighty-having complete power; omnipotent.
Omnipotent-(of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything, almighty.
"Almighty" is also a name for God in Christian dialogue.

There are several ways of looking at "potential". For instance, in physics, potential is; the quantity determining the energy of mass in a gravitational field or of charge in an electric field. But, in everyday English, potential means; having or showing the capacity to become or develop into something in the future. (Potential sorta looses it's potential in a pre space-time state).

No, free will, in any context, means the capacity to exercise ones own will, free of force. From a philosophical perspective, free will, has to do with "moral responsibility". From a theistic perspective, specifically Christianity, free will can be taken to mean the ability to accept, or reject, God.

If we consider that God actualized, ("actualized" meaning, made a reality of) a world specifically for free will agents then God is not the cause of what happens, although God knows what will happen (omniscience), since free will is the cause.

Consider this as an analogy: In a baseball game, a pitcher, throws a ball which a batter strikes. Does the ball hit the bat, or does the bat hit the ball? In either case, the result is an audible "thunck". Now, what caused the "thunck", the pitcher throwing the ball, the batter swinging the bat, the ball striking the bat or the bat striking the ball? How about the guy who invented baseball? Pressure and displacement? Air?
Don't we all know what happens when a batter connects with a pitched ball?

This is termed, "causality". Which is the relationship between cause and effect.

The effect of God actualizing a world specifically for free will agents resulted in the world we experience today, in order for its reasoning agents to have free will.

In order for free will agents to exist, the world God made a reality of, can only logically exist as we experience the world existing.

If God is omnipotent, almighty, He can create a world in which free will agents are autonomous, free to accept or reject His existence and Will.
Of course an omnipotent god can do whatever (since that is the very definition of omnipotent, after all) they want. What is more important and that I have never heard a logical answer to is: why would an omnipotent god bother to do such a thing? Illogical...
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Re: The almighty god vs omnipotence vs free will

Post by RuleOnu »

LuckyR,
Of course an omnipotent god can do whatever (since that is the very definition of omnipotent, after all) they want. What is more important and that I have never heard a logical answer to is: why would an omnipotent god bother to do such a thing? Illogical...
Just because you never heard a logical answer for your bemusement doesn't mean there isn't one.

Maybe God isn't a nihilist!

I don't know from what perspective there's answer for you since several theist religions and ideologies offer one. From the Christian perspective God created the world for His Glory. I'm not going to get into that here since researching that perspective can be easily researched on the Internet. But, I'm going to try and answer your question through secular, or atheist, reasoning, just to make things interesting.

First, I'd like to submit that asking your question is like asking, "why mow lawns", "why have pets", "why go on vacation", "why go into a village to care for its inhabitants infected with ebola"?

We have two possibilities,
1. The universe has a purely naturalistic cause for its existence.
2. The universe has a supernatural cause for its existence.

If the universe has a purely naturalistic cause, it's existence is just a product of some unknown physics and has no purpose.
If the universe has a supernatural cause, then that cause is puposeful.
Therefore the universe must have a reason for existing.
(Would you agree up to this point?)

If a "god" exists, and created the universe, then that "god" must have reasons outside of himself for creating the universe since this "god" would posses maximal properties and characteristics. Maximal here means greater than the conscious reasoning agents existing in this entities creation. For instance, If this "god" is happy and joyful, this entity would be maximally happy and joyful. Such a maximal entity would have no desires, needs or wants.

At this point you may argue that this creator "god" may just as well be maximally evil and cruel, but this would go against the definition of a "god" who is "worthy of worship". The fact that Human Beings are free to worship such a "god", or not, negates the "evil god" argument. Further if this "god" is just, this entity would be maximally just. This "god" would have attributes nearing perfection. If maximally just and unjust, and free to choose, such a "god" would choose the attribute closest to perfection.
Remember, such a creator "god" would be have maximal attributes and characteristic, which means all this entities wants and desires are fulfulled.
If this "god" is maximally evil and demands worship from its conscious reasoning agents then this entity is not maximal, since this entity has desires and wants. If this "god" is not maximal this entity would be left to contemplate "maxicality" and be as deficient and flawed as Humanity. In that humanity is left to contemplate his own existence, which means incomplete knowledge. A creator "god", worthy of worship would have maximal knowledge, (omniscience).

I think I've established the attributes and character of a creator "god", worthy of contemplation and worship.
Such a creator "god" is maximal, nearing perfection.
This "gods" perfection negates this entities need for wants and desires.

Since we can contemplate the existence of a creator "god" and this entities necessary attributes and character we can reason this "gods" possible rationales for creating a universe and its conscious reasoning agents.

"God created the universe to share his perfect love with beings made in His image"
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Re: The almighty god vs omnipotence vs free will

Post by LuckyR »

RuleOnu wrote:LuckyR,
Of course an omnipotent god can do whatever (since that is the very definition of omnipotent, after all) they want. What is more important and that I have never heard a logical answer to is: why would an omnipotent god bother to do such a thing? Illogical...
Just because you never heard a logical answer for your bemusement doesn't mean there isn't one.

Maybe God isn't a nihilist!

I don't know from what perspective there's answer for you since several theist religions and ideologies offer one. From the Christian perspective God created the world for His Glory. I'm not going to get into that here since researching that perspective can be easily researched on the Internet. But, I'm going to try and answer your question through secular, or atheist, reasoning, just to make things interesting.

First, I'd like to submit that asking your question is like asking, "why mow lawns", "why have pets", "why go on vacation", "why go into a village to care for its inhabitants infected with ebola"?

We have two possibilities,
1. The universe has a purely naturalistic cause for its existence.
2. The universe has a supernatural cause for its existence.

If the universe has a purely naturalistic cause, it's existence is just a product of some unknown physics and has no purpose.
If the universe has a supernatural cause, then that cause is puposeful.
Therefore the universe must have a reason for existing.
(Would you agree up to this point?)

If a "god" exists, and created the universe, then that "god" must have reasons outside of himself for creating the universe since this "god" would posses maximal properties and characteristics. Maximal here means greater than the conscious reasoning agents existing in this entities creation. For instance, If this "god" is happy and joyful, this entity would be maximally happy and joyful. Such a maximal entity would have no desires, needs or wants.

At this point you may argue that this creator "god" may just as well be maximally evil and cruel, but this would go against the definition of a "god" who is "worthy of worship". The fact that Human Beings are free to worship such a "god", or not, negates the "evil god" argument. Further if this "god" is just, this entity would be maximally just. This "god" would have attributes nearing perfection. If maximally just and unjust, and free to choose, such a "god" would choose the attribute closest to perfection.
Remember, such a creator "god" would be have maximal attributes and characteristic, which means all this entities wants and desires are fulfulled.
If this "god" is maximally evil and demands worship from its conscious reasoning agents then this entity is not maximal, since this entity has desires and wants. If this "god" is not maximal this entity would be left to contemplate "maxicality" and be as deficient and flawed as Humanity. In that humanity is left to contemplate his own existence, which means incomplete knowledge. A creator "god", worthy of worship would have maximal knowledge, (omniscience).

I think I've established the attributes and character of a creator "god", worthy of contemplation and worship.
Such a creator "god" is maximal, nearing perfection.
This "gods" perfection negates this entities need for wants and desires.

Since we can contemplate the existence of a creator "god" and this entities necessary attributes and character we can reason this "gods" possible rationales for creating a universe and its conscious reasoning agents.

"God created the universe to share his perfect love with beings made in His image"
Sure they do. But religious "reasons" that invoke the religion itself are circular arguments not logic based explanations. Of course it is typically asking too much of a dogma to reach beyond dogmatic conversation, but there you have it: no logical explanation.

"Mow lawns?" You flatter yourself in the analogy department. Let me be more plain so you can stop wasting time on inappropriate analogies. Many modern religions believe in an omniscient god (yours perhaps?) that imply an infinite intellect. Of course humans, supposedly god's chosen, don't have a zero intellect. Question for you: what do you think is the relative intellectual capacity of an omniscient god compared to a human? Or to put it a different way, god compared to a human (intellectually) is like a human compared to what? A dog? A slug? A daffodil? A bacterium? A rock? Well many have posted that since an omniscient god has infinite intellect that a finite intellect (human) compared to that would mean the relative intellectual comparison for a human would be to zero intellect (a rock or an atom, say). Well, if this relationship is accurate (and I am not saying it is accurate since I believe omnipotence and omniscience are myths) then the chance that such a being would care about the day to day activities of humans would about the level of the average human would have for the day to day situation of a rock (or atom), logically. Thus my original (as yet unanswered) question.
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Re: The almighty god vs omnipotence vs free will

Post by RuleOnu »

LuckyR said,
Sure they do. But religious "reasons" that invoke the religion itself are circular arguments not logic based explanations. Of course it is typically asking too much of a dogma to reach beyond dogmatic conversation, but there you have it: no logical explanation.

"Mow lawns?" You flatter yourself in the analogy department. Let me be more plain so you can stop wasting time on inappropriate analogies. Many modern religions believe in an omniscient god (yours perhaps?) that imply an infinite intellect. Of course humans, supposedly god's chosen, don't have a zero intellect. Question for you: what do you think is the relative intellectual capacity of an omniscient god compared to a human? Or to put it a different way, god compared to a human (intellectually) is like a human compared to what? A dog? A slug? A daffodil? A bacterium? A rock? Well many have posted that since an omniscient god has infinite intellect that a finite intellect (human) compared to that would mean the relative intellectual comparison for a human would be to zero intellect (a rock or an atom, say). Well, if this relationship is accurate (and I am not saying it is accurate since I believe omnipotence and omniscience are myths) then the chance that such a being would care about the day to day activities of humans would about the level of the average human would have for the day to day situation of a rock (or atom), logically. Thus my original (as yet unanswered) question.
First, I did not evoke any religion.
I approached the problem from a secular position, using the proposition that "if" a "god" exists, and created the world, such an entity would do so based on the parameters of attributes and character I described such a being would necessarily have. I made every attempt to provide an argument as to why a "god" would create this universe without using any "religious dogma" or language, but based on reasonable and rational qualities such a creator "god" would posses "if" such a creator "god" exists.

At no time do you refute or contest any of the propositions in my argument. Instead you've moved the goalposts.

I'm sorry the analogies were lost on you. "Mowing a lawn" is relevant insofar as there is no logical reason to mow a lawn other than aesthetics. Aesthetics cannot be addressed scientifically, just like the existence of God can't.

It seems you didn't read my commemt, since I argued a "god" would have "maximal" attributes and characteristics, and not "omni.." anything, except omniscience.

Herein "maximal" would mean those attributes and characteristics which make a "god", a "god". In much the same way as a championship sports team would have maximal abilities and characteristics to win a championship. Or, that you have maximal abilities and characteristics that make you, you and able to comment here.

As I argued, a creator "god" would have "maximal" intellect to be a creator "god", as would Human Beings have maximal intellect to be Human Beings.
Question for you: what do you think is the relative intellectual capacity of an omniscient god compared to a human?

I don't believe intellect or intelligence can be quantified. In fact, there are at 61 diffevent definitions for intelligence. As I propose, a "god" and those conscious agents part of that entities creation are maximally intelligent to function as what they are.
I believe omnipotence and omniscience are myths) then the chance that such a being would care about the day to day activities of humans would about the level of the average human would have for the day to day situation of a rock (or atom), logically. Thus my original (as yet unanswered) question.
I would agree to some extent in that describing "omnipotence and omniscience" as myths, particularly omniscience is inaccurate. Once again I describe the attributes and characteristics of a "god" as "maximal" since I contend that "infinite" qualities can be qualified, while maximal qualities would be inherent and observable.
A creator "god" would be "omniscient" in much the same way as an architect who would posses all the knowledge necessary regarding a project he creates. An architect takes into consideration any foreseeable conditions which can arise using according to varying conditions, such as earthquake or fire.

When's the last time you created something you didn't care about?
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Re: The almighty god vs omnipotence vs free will

Post by LuckyR »

RuleOnu wrote:LuckyR said,
Sure they do. But religious "reasons" that invoke the religion itself are circular arguments not logic based explanations. Of course it is typically asking too much of a dogma to reach beyond dogmatic conversation, but there you have it: no logical explanation.

"Mow lawns?" You flatter yourself in the analogy department. Let me be more plain so you can stop wasting time on inappropriate analogies. Many modern religions believe in an omniscient god (yours perhaps?) that imply an infinite intellect. Of course humans, supposedly god's chosen, don't have a zero intellect. Question for you: what do you think is the relative intellectual capacity of an omniscient god compared to a human? Or to put it a different way, god compared to a human (intellectually) is like a human compared to what? A dog? A slug? A daffodil? A bacterium? A rock? Well many have posted that since an omniscient god has infinite intellect that a finite intellect (human) compared to that would mean the relative intellectual comparison for a human would be to zero intellect (a rock or an atom, say). Well, if this relationship is accurate (and I am not saying it is accurate since I believe omnipotence and omniscience are myths) then the chance that such a being would care about the day to day activities of humans would about the level of the average human would have for the day to day situation of a rock (or atom), logically. Thus my original (as yet unanswered) question.
First, I did not evoke any religion.
I approached the problem from a secular position, using the proposition that "if" a "god" exists, and created the world, such an entity would do so based on the parameters of attributes and character I described such a being would necessarily have. I made every attempt to provide an argument as to why a "god" would create this universe without using any "religious dogma" or language, but based on reasonable and rational qualities such a creator "god" would posses "if" such a creator "god" exists.

At no time do you refute or contest any of the propositions in my argument. Instead you've moved the goalposts.

I'm sorry the analogies were lost on you. "Mowing a lawn" is relevant insofar as there is no logical reason to mow a lawn other than aesthetics. Aesthetics cannot be addressed scientifically, just like the existence of God can't.

It seems you didn't read my commemt, since I argued a "god" would have "maximal" attributes and characteristics, and not "omni.." anything, except omniscience.

Herein "maximal" would mean those attributes and characteristics which make a "god", a "god". In much the same way as a championship sports team would have maximal abilities and characteristics to win a championship. Or, that you have maximal abilities and characteristics that make you, you and able to comment here.

As I argued, a creator "god" would have "maximal" intellect to be a creator "god", as would Human Beings have maximal intellect to be Human Beings.
Question for you: what do you think is the relative intellectual capacity of an omniscient god compared to a human?

I don't believe intellect or intelligence can be quantified. In fact, there are at 61 diffevent definitions for intelligence. As I propose, a "god" and those conscious agents part of that entities creation are maximally intelligent to function as what they are.
I believe omnipotence and omniscience are myths) then the chance that such a being would care about the day to day activities of humans would about the level of the average human would have for the day to day situation of a rock (or atom), logically. Thus my original (as yet unanswered) question.
I would agree to some extent in that describing "omnipotence and omniscience" as myths, particularly omniscience is inaccurate. Once again I describe the attributes and characteristics of a "god" as "maximal" since I contend that "infinite" qualities can be qualified, while maximal qualities would be inherent and observable.
A creator "god" would be "omniscient" in much the same way as an architect who would posses all the knowledge necessary regarding a project he creates. An architect takes into consideration any foreseeable conditions which can arise using according to varying conditions, such as earthquake or fire.

When's the last time you created something you didn't care about?
We are not communicating very well.

First, to most ears "From the Christian perspective God created the world for His Glory" is invoking religion.

Although you, as an individual don't believe in omniscience (as I don't) my Original question, isn't about you as an individual, it is addressing the greater religious community, the majority of whom do. But you can still answer my relative intellect question substituting maximal for infinite/omniscient. Still waiting. I get that you are using the "intellect can't be measured" dodge, but that's all it is. You have heard of IQ points, right?

Lastly, my question is NOT why would a "maximally" intelligent being create us then not care about us? Rather, why would a maximally/infinitely (depending on the audience) intelligent being choose to create such a lowly system to manage/care about?
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Re: The almighty god vs omnipotence vs free will

Post by RuleOnu »

First, to most ears "From the Christian perspective God created the world for His Glory" is invoking religion.
This is what I stated and proposed;
From the Christian perspective God created the world for His Glory. I'm not going to get into that here since researching that perspective can be easily researched on the Internet. But, I'm going to try and answer your question through secular, or atheist, reasoning, just to make things interesting.

You are taking me out of context, and proposed in bold!
Although you, as an individual don't believe in omniscience (as I don't) my Original question,...
I didn't say that, but this;
"A creator "god" would be "omniscient" in much the same way as an architect who would posses all the knowledge necessary regarding a project he creates. An architect takes into consideration any foreseeable conditions which can arise "according to varying possible"(edited) conditions, such as earthquake or fire."
isn't about you as an individual, it is addressing the greater religious community, the majority of whom do. But you can still answer my relative intellect question substituting maximal for infinite/omniscient. Still waiting. I get that you are using the "intellect can't be measured" dodge, but that's all it is. You have heard of IQ points, right?
The efficacy of "Intelligence Quotient" tests is disputed here,
http://www.aboutintelligence.co.uk/what ... gence.html
"The true sign of intelligence is imagination." Einstein.
"I know that I am intelligent, because I know that I know nothing." Socrates.

I further suggest you research the work of Dr. Howard Gardner and his "Multiple Intelligence Theory".
Lastly, my question is NOT why would a "maximally" intelligent being create us then not care about us? Rather, why would a maximally/infinitely (depending on the audience) intelligent being choose to create such a lowly system to manage/care about?
Can you provide proof and or evidence of "such a lowly system to manage/care about? Or, is that just your opinion? I find the universe highly ordered, beautiful, wondrous and amazing. Human beings even more so.

Interesting that you state this is not about me, but feel well qualified to have your own unsubstantiated opinions.
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Re: The almighty god vs omnipotence vs free will

Post by -1- »

RuleOnu wrote to renee, that an omnipotent god can create anything, including a human with a free will.

That is perfectly right.

God is also omniscient. So he knows what a man with a free will is going to think, do, decide, feel, know, misunderstand.

In this sense man's free will is not free at all. The omipotent god will know ahead of time the man's decision. Therefore the man is BOUND to that decision form day 1 of creation.

Therefore free will does not exist, or else god is not omniscient.

But god is omniscient.

Therefore free will does not exist.

Therefore the argument that renee proposed, is proved, which is,
renee wrote:This makes free will impossible; and it takes criminal and spiritual liability away from people and vindicates them of their sins or crimes. With or without being Christians. This is by divine doctrine of the scriptures of Abrahamic religions.

Divine doctrine also states that Adam and Eve sinned; they committed the original sin; and they did that out of their free will.

The strong insistence on the existence of free will, and the logical impossibility of free will concurrent with the doctrine of an almighty (and I must add omniscient) god, nullifies the credibility of the scriptures. Because you can have one, or the other, but not both.
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Re: The almighty god vs omnipotence vs free will

Post by LuckyR »

RuleOnu wrote:
First, to most ears "From the Christian perspective God created the world for His Glory" is invoking religion.
This is what I stated and proposed;
From the Christian perspective God created the world for His Glory. I'm not going to get into that here since researching that perspective can be easily researched on the Internet. But, I'm going to try and answer your question through secular, or atheist, reasoning, just to make things interesting.

You are taking me out of context, and proposed in bold!
Although you, as an individual don't believe in omniscience (as I don't) my Original question,...
I didn't say that, but this;
"A creator "god" would be "omniscient" in much the same way as an architect who would posses all the knowledge necessary regarding a project he creates. An architect takes into consideration any foreseeable conditions which can arise "according to varying possible"(edited) conditions, such as earthquake or fire."
isn't about you as an individual, it is addressing the greater religious community, the majority of whom do. But you can still answer my relative intellect question substituting maximal for infinite/omniscient. Still waiting. I get that you are using the "intellect can't be measured" dodge, but that's all it is. You have heard of IQ points, right?
The efficacy of "Intelligence Quotient" tests is disputed here,
http://www.aboutintelligence.co.uk/what ... gence.html
"The true sign of intelligence is imagination." Einstein.
"I know that I am intelligent, because I know that I know nothing." Socrates.

I further suggest you research the work of Dr. Howard Gardner and his "Multiple Intelligence Theory".
Lastly, my question is NOT why would a "maximally" intelligent being create us then not care about us? Rather, why would a maximally/infinitely (depending on the audience) intelligent being choose to create such a lowly system to manage/care about?
Can you provide proof and or evidence of "such a lowly system to manage/care about? Or, is that just your opinion? I find the universe highly ordered, beautiful, wondrous and amazing. Human beings even more so.

Interesting that you state this is not about me, but feel well qualified to have your own unsubstantiated opinions.
I am not alone with having unsubstantiated opinions... said the pot to the kettle. None of this thread is provable, merely more or less logical. Everyone knows that there are plenty of areas where the most logical answer ends up not being the correct one, so none of us pretend that our more (or less for that matter) logical ideas are therefore true. We are dealing with unprovables here.

I see that you are continuing to dodge my question. To be honest you are right to do so since answering it would be step one on the road to pointing out the logical flaw (admittedly not a fatal flaw) with the omnipotent/omniscient (or maximal for that matter) god concept. So dodge away.

-- Updated April 14th, 2017, 4:51 pm to add the following --
-1- wrote:RuleOnu wrote to renee, that an omnipotent god can create anything, including a human with a free will.

That is perfectly right.

God is also omniscient. So he knows what a man with a free will is going to think, do, decide, feel, know, misunderstand.

In this sense man's free will is not free at all. The omipotent god will know ahead of time the man's decision. Therefore the man is BOUND to that decision form day 1 of creation.

Therefore free will does not exist, or else god is not omniscient.

But god is omniscient.

Therefore free will does not exist.

Therefore the argument that renee proposed, is proved, which is,
renee wrote:This makes free will impossible; and it takes criminal and spiritual liability away from people and vindicates them of their sins or crimes. With or without being Christians. This is by divine doctrine of the scriptures of Abrahamic religions.

Divine doctrine also states that Adam and Eve sinned; they committed the original sin; and they did that out of their free will.

The strong insistence on the existence of free will, and the logical impossibility of free will concurrent with the doctrine of an almighty (and I must add omniscient) god, nullifies the credibility of the scriptures. Because you can have one, or the other, but not both.
Sorry but the only thing you have proven is that omniscience and omnipotence are myths, that exist only in the human mind.
"As usual... it depends."
RuleOnu
Posts: 31
Joined: April 5th, 2017, 11:56 am

Re: The almighty god vs omnipotence vs free will

Post by RuleOnu »

I'm not trying to prove anything!

I'm making an argument using conditional propositions and inductive and deductive arguments.

Arguments and propositions you have not, or rather, cannot, similarly refute using the same philosophical methods.

I'm sorry, but philosphy is an acedemic discipline. Perfectly fine to have opinions, but, in philosphy there are rules and principles like the application of conditional propositions, inductive or deductive arguments, modal logic, syllogisms and valid conclusions based on those properties, whether they are right or wrong.

Rejection is not a refutation or argument.

Based on my arguments I stand by the only rational conclusions I offered to your questions as a result.
"If a "god" exists, given the maximal attributes and characteristics necessary for a "god" to be worthy of contemplation and worship, then the One True God actualized the world to share His perfect Love with Man He created in His image."
Fooloso4
Posts: 3601
Joined: February 28th, 2014, 4:50 pm

Re: The almighty god vs omnipotence vs free will

Post by Fooloso4 »

RuleOnu:
I approached the problem from a secular position, using the proposition that "if" a "god" exists, and created the world, such an entity would do so based on the parameters of attributes and character I described such a being would necessarily have.
A creator God only need be capable of creating the world. Your “parameters” are man-made attributes not necessary characteristics.
Herein "maximal" would mean those attributes and characteristics which make a "god", a "god". In much the same way as a championship sports team would have maximal abilities and characteristics to win a championship. Or, that you have maximal abilities and characteristics that make you, you and able to comment here.
The championship team has sufficient abilities not maximal abilities. Their abilities may be superseded next season by a team with greater abilities. We have no way of determining whether their abilities cannot be exceeded, and so, we cannot ascribe maximal abilities to them.

We cannot ascribe maximal abilities to a creator God based on his ability to create the world. It may be this God has only the minimal ability required to create a world. If there are other Gods them may have created better worlds based on their greater abilities.
I don't believe intellect or intelligence can be quantified. In fact, there are at 61 diffevent definitions for intelligence. As I propose, a "god" and those conscious agents part of that entities creation are maximally intelligent to function as what they are.
One might also say that “nature” is intelligent, that it is self-sufficient and does not require a transcendent being or power or creator God. The advantage, of course, is that we do not have to deal with hypotheticals like “if nature exists”.
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Atreyu
Posts: 1737
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Re: The almighty god vs omnipotence vs free will

Post by Atreyu »

I agree with you that the idea of a "free will" is false, but would only like to comment on a particular part of your post.
Divine doctrine also states that Adam and Eve sinned; they committed the original sin; and they did that out of their free will.
I don't believe that the original sin was an act of "free will". Adam and Eve merely succumbed to an outside force, metaphorically called 'the Serpent'. They didn't really decide or choose to "do" what they did. The act of the Serpent was to deceive Eve, to mesmerize her, hypnotize her, which IMO makes her unaccountable for what happened. Adam in turn was deceived by Eve, making him also unaccountable.

There is no "free will" or "choice" for someone who is deluded, hypnotized, or mesmerized, and this reality is even encoded in our laws with the so called "insanity defense"....
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