The Paradoxes of Paradise -- is Heaven really Heaven?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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MHopcroft1963
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The Paradoxes of Paradise -- is Heaven really Heaven?

Post by MHopcroft1963 »

Oddly enough, it was something I saw on Steven Universe that made me want to post again.

In this particular episode, Steven had to rescue his father from a "zoo" in space where humans were kept. (The details would make no sense if you're not familiar with the series, and aren't all that relevant to the question). When he reaches the zoo, he discoevers that there are many humans there and they live a life of near-perpetual bliss. They are so well-cared-for, in fact, that they don't even know pain as a concept. They spend all their time feeling good and cannot comprehend the idea of not feeling good until the protagonist's father mucks up the works and they are introduced to the pain of not being able to have something they want. That causes the zookeepers to rush in and try to salvage the situation, allowing the captive father and son to escape.

In the zoo, everything you could ever think you would need or want is provided. Fruit literally sprouts from the trees on demand so you can eat it, and that fruit supplies everything your body needs. You lack for nothing except freedom, because the surest way to prevent you from escaping is to prevent you from wanting to escape in the first place.

And now I am reminded of how this compares to the Biblical story of Eden and its analogues in other faiths. Eden is just that sort of a place. Everything is provided for you as long as you obey. You are endlessly happy. Being kicked out into the world and having to work for your livelihood is the consequence of disobedience. Yet what would happen is you were, in fact, perfectly obedient and stuck to the rules? Would you revel in endless bliss, or would you become stagnant? In the Genesis account, Man had to disobey for anything else to happen.

Were they happy in Eden? And, since Heaven is cited as being an awful lot like Eden, would humans be happy in a similar Heaven? Or are these prisons of a sort, just like the space zoo, where your needs are met but your will and individuality are denied?
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Re: The Paradoxes of Paradise -- is Heaven really Heaven?

Post by LuckyR »

MHopcroft1963 wrote:Oddly enough, it was something I saw on Steven Universe that made me want to post again.

In this particular episode, Steven had to rescue his father from a "zoo" in space where humans were kept. (The details would make no sense if you're not familiar with the series, and aren't all that relevant to the question). When he reaches the zoo, he discoevers that there are many humans there and they live a life of near-perpetual bliss. They are so well-cared-for, in fact, that they don't even know pain as a concept. They spend all their time feeling good and cannot comprehend the idea of not feeling good until the protagonist's father mucks up the works and they are introduced to the pain of not being able to have something they want. That causes the zookeepers to rush in and try to salvage the situation, allowing the captive father and son to escape.

In the zoo, everything you could ever think you would need or want is provided. Fruit literally sprouts from the trees on demand so you can eat it, and that fruit supplies everything your body needs. You lack for nothing except freedom, because the surest way to prevent you from escaping is to prevent you from wanting to escape in the first place.

And now I am reminded of how this compares to the Biblical story of Eden and its analogues in other faiths. Eden is just that sort of a place. Everything is provided for you as long as you obey. You are endlessly happy. Being kicked out into the world and having to work for your livelihood is the consequence of disobedience. Yet what would happen is you were, in fact, perfectly obedient and stuck to the rules? Would you revel in endless bliss, or would you become stagnant? In the Genesis account, Man had to disobey for anything else to happen.

Were they happy in Eden? And, since Heaven is cited as being an awful lot like Eden, would humans be happy in a similar Heaven? Or are these prisons of a sort, just like the space zoo, where your needs are met but your will and individuality are denied?
That all depends on what your ability is to have a theoretical philosophical thought process (not unlike this thread and my answer). If you have no inkling that there is another way of being beyond your own experience then you would not be in Paradise World, you would be in Standard World. Since you don't know of anything different (fruit that has to slowly grow on trees, only once a year, are not 100% nutritious and cost some money) this "bliss" isn't bliss to you, it is average and routine. Thus you are likely to be bored. This boredom will approach humongous proportions if you are able to conceive the idea of a world where there is work, sweat, pain and adversity but also learning, triumph, and achievement.
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Re: The Paradoxes of Paradise -- is Heaven really Heaven?

Post by Eduk »

Heaven is normally described in terms which convey no practical meaning or offer any details or knowledge. Human's do not know what eternal happiness is or how to describe what types of things would lead to eternal happiness. So the best you can hope for is to say that it is defined as eternally happy.
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MHopcroft1963
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Re: The Paradoxes of Paradise -- is Heaven really Heaven?

Post by MHopcroft1963 »

Eduk wrote:Heaven is normally described in terms which convey no practical meaning or offer any details or knowledge. Human's do not know what eternal happiness is or how to describe what types of things would lead to eternal happiness. So the best you can hope for is to say that it is defined as eternally happy.
Whether "eternal happiness" is even conceivable depends on how you define happiness, and that is a very individual thing. For many of us, for example, we define happiness as accomplishing goals rather than everlasting pleasure. An afterlife where there is nothing left to achieve would be horrible for such a person.

And suppose if you will a heaven of eternal pleasant sensation but limited or no true cognition or individuality. While you would enjoy it, because you have no way not to, it might well pale in comparison to a life where you are a person who can think their own thoughts as opposed to simply feeling blissful.
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Re: The Paradoxes of Paradise -- is Heaven really Heaven?

Post by Dolphin42 »

And now I am reminded of how this compares to the Biblical story of Eden and its analogues in other faiths.
It also remind me a bit of the novel Brave New World by Aldous Huxley. I remember studying it at school in contrast to George Orwell's 1984. Both are worlds in which the population is controlled, but by using polar opposite methods.

Another random thing which springs to mind: the writer of books about hill walking, Alfred Wainwright. He compared the pleasure of long arduous walks in the hills to the pleasure of smashing your head against a brick wall. It makes you appreciate it when it stops. You need contrasts in life.
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Re: The Paradoxes of Paradise -- is Heaven really Heaven?

Post by Eduk »

Out of interest MHopcroft1963 what conclusions do you draw from this apparently self contradictory definition of heaven?
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Re: The Paradoxes of Paradise -- is Heaven really Heaven?

Post by Present awareness »

In the story of Adam and Eve, they had no knowledge of good or evil and therefore did not know that to disobey and eat the apple of knowledge, was either considered to be good or evil. Knowledge creates a division between the knower and the known. It is the division itself, which removes the knower from paradise.
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MHopcroft1963
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Re: The Paradoxes of Paradise -- is Heaven really Heaven?

Post by MHopcroft1963 »

Eduk wrote:Out of interest MHopcroft1963 what conclusions do you draw from this apparently self contradictory definition of heaven?
For one thing, I hope for an afterlife where I can think, create and do -- unlikely though that sounds.

There's no real conclusion, as obviously we have no reliable accounts of what would happen if our minds were preserved after death in some form. And of course, if you hold to atheism the point is moot, because then nothing would exist after the death of the physical brain -- a prospect I find even more frightening.

We are talking about what Shakespeare referred to as "The Undiscovered Country". We can only speculate on what lies there. Philosophy can inform that speculation, but that's really all we can do.

The principal question is "Is everlasting bliss truly blissful?" and my conclusion is that, at least for me, it is not. Case in point: last year I injured my shoulder so badly that in my ER visit I was given morphine to dull the pain. Now a lot of people find considerable relief in opiates when they are in pain. Some people take them when they aren't in severe pain just because they like how it feels. But that wasn't my experience. For me, the effects of morphine were unpleasant and even vaguely terrifying. What others see as a pleasant state of bliss and limited negative sensation, I intensely disliked. I suspect this is how I would react to the prospect of "everlasting bliss" if the thought included the utter lack of ability to act.

-- Updated January 13th, 2017, 12:45 pm to add the following --
Present awareness wrote:In the story of Adam and Eve, they had no knowledge of good or evil and therefore did not know that to disobey and eat the apple of knowledge, was either considered to be good or evil. Knowledge creates a division between the knower and the known. It is the division itself, which removes the knower from paradise.
If I can get into the theological, in this view of the account Adam had to fall in order for human beings to exist as full persons. The alternative was an immortal existence with no possibility of creativity or accomplishment -- or indeed of any real pleasure or enjoyment. Adam and Eve would have simply existed forever with no chance of doing anything else than wander around a massive orchard picking fruit without really understanding why. Without that capacity, and without the desire to understand, humans wouldn't be recognizable as humans. Which is why Eden as a metaphor for Heaven is questionable.

Now I'm not suggesting that there was an actual Eden or that the account of Adam and Eve isn't a metaphor for something more basic in human nature. I'm not willing to take it quite that far. The writers of Genesis did not think too deeply on these questions, leaving that for later scholars.
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Re: The Paradoxes of Paradise -- is Heaven really Heaven?

Post by Eduk »

For one thing, I hope for an afterlife where I can think, create and do -- unlikely though that sounds.
Maybe this biases you?
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MHopcroft1963
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Re: The Paradoxes of Paradise -- is Heaven really Heaven?

Post by MHopcroft1963 »

Eduk wrote:
For one thing, I hope for an afterlife where I can think, create and do -- unlikely though that sounds.
Maybe this biases you?
Probably. It means for me that I have an answer I want, but that is not the necessarily the same thing as the answer I get. Many philosophers have set out to prove a thesis and end up proving something completely different that may even have been the opposite of the result they wanted. They took their original premise (in this case, an afterlife of eternal bliss) and found they could not make it stand up to logic. That's the difference between a philosopher and someone who just believes -- the believer, if he doesn;t get the answer he wants, is likely to "cheat" by changing the questions so that the result he wanted looks justified.

Does a university whose structure is intended to protect a particular faith worldview even want to have a Philosophy Department where people learn to ask questions?
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Re: The Paradoxes of Paradise -- is Heaven really Heaven?

Post by Sy Borg »

If your life is near-ideal for too long, then you become vulnerable, weak, out-of-shape, too soft to endure even the gentle blows of life. Regular mild suffering is essential to stay in shape, and if you don't inflict it on yourself then you can be sure life will do it for you.
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Re: The Paradoxes of Paradise -- is Heaven really Heaven?

Post by Eluhorem »

It also all depends on how we define happiness. In my experience, happiness isn't equal to comfort, or pleasure, but is a result of living a fulfilling life, working through challenges for a cause I deem worthy. Heaven as it's traditionally conceived seems something like a heroin trip, like just a bath of pleasure, but lacking the components that make human life fulfilling or meaningful.
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Re: The Paradoxes of Paradise -- is Heaven really Heaven?

Post by Present awareness »

The definition of any word, carries the meaning that we assign to it. So heaven is simply heaven. The question should perhaps be, "is the definition of heaven, accurate"? The answer would probably be "yes" because that's how heaven is defined. If we ask whether a state of everlasting bliss is possible, the answer would be "if there is, it would be heaven".
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