Why are people so against the Mormons?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Lark_Truth
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Re: Why are people so against the Mormons?

Post by Lark_Truth »

Eduk wrote:So I guess there are a number of issues.
1. As people have already pointed out they personally find the religious claims made to be unbelievable. This is a common complaint of everyone who isn't in whatever religion is being discussed. Personally I find the religious claims of LDS to be identical to Christianity or any religion. So it's in no way unique or particularly objectionable. Secularism basically deals with the problem, from both sides, and hopefully allows us all to live together in relative harmony.
2. To my mind the real problems with LDS, or any religion, are not so much the beliefs but the behaviours. When religion turns into a cult you have a real and genuine problem. Now I only know LDS through what I have read online and through some podcasts who have interviewed people who have left LDS. Those people certainly described cults. Now you can maybe say ok there are some LDS cults, in the same way there are some Christian cults, but you could argue it's the minority and not the majority. Personally I don't have any facts and figures to hand tp be sure one way or the other.

Lark Truth I assume you are in the LDS church? Can I ask you a question? If you today decided that you no longer believed in the teachings of the church and you wanted to leave. How would your friends/family and fellow church members react?
Well Eduk, yes I am a Mormon. True blue and it is what I have faith in in. I'll stop there before I get preaching. First off, The LDS Church is not a cult. A cult is a religion that worships a specific person and their teachings. Like in Ancient Rome, there was the cult of the Emperor who claimed to be a god along with the rest of the Roman pantheon. We don't worship Joseph Smith Jr., we just honor him as the one who was the first prophet and leader of our church. We really talk about God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost more often and focus on Them rather than Joseph Smith. If there are Mormon cults, then they are not members of the original LDS church, but members of break-off sects such as the RLDS church. I have heard of some who believe that the descendants of Joseph Smith Jr. were supposed to be the ones to lead the LDS church and broke away because of that. If you want more facts, Eduk, then I advise you visit Mormon.org to check out the LDS church for yourself. I don't advise you to do an internet search on Mormons to learn about them because you will get a lot of anti-mormon websites that are really negative towards the Church.
As to the question you asked me how my family and fellow church members would react if I left the LDS Church, they would probably ask my reasons as to why I would do that. I personally haven't met anyone who has deliberately left the church, so I really don't know how to answer a question like that. I would imagine that my family would be really sad, though.
Anyways, check out Mormon.org. Great site!
Truth is Power. Reason is Wisdom. Intelligence is Experience. Hope is Bright!
Eduk
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Re: Why are people so against the Mormons?

Post by Eduk »

Well we define cult differently. I would say that it's pretty hard to draw a line and say x is not a cult and y is a cult. I think there are a number of factors which lead me to labelling something as a cult or as a religion. And I'm sure there are religions/cults which sit right in the middle of wherever I attempt to draw the line :)
So for example I don't think a cult has to worship a specific human. Although cults do have leaders, you could say the Pope was the leader of Catholics for example (not saying Catholics belong to a cult by the way). I imagine you have leaders? From the Mormons I have heard talking about their experiences they have what I would call village elders? (priests?) who basically tell everyone else what they can and can't do. For example this person wasn't allowed a phone, but the leaders were. I assume this does not apply to your situation though? But certainly it does apply to some Mormons, whether that is a tiny minority or not I really don't know.
One common characteristic of a cult is an us Vs them attitude. Obviously this can be applied to you (I'm not saying this means you are in a cult though) as your very question shows that. But to be fair you are asking the question so that, to some extent, proves you are at least not 100% in a cult. Someone who was 100% in a cult would not be asking, as anything we had to say would be the words of the devil/(insert baddie of your choice here).
Rather than read Mormon.org I would be much more interested in your personal feelings and experiences.
The reason I asked what would happen if you denounced your faith was because in a cult you would be ostracised. You would be forced to leave. Your family would not recognise you. Your friends would not recognise you (they would believe you possessed). The community as a whole may attempt to coerce you to stay, and I don't mean with arguments I mean with threats. Either towards you or your family, blackmail basically. Again this is the behaviour in at least some Mormon communities. Likewise in communities of Orthodox Jews you would expect very similar behaviour.
So would you be allowed to stay in your community? I am again assuming you live in an LDS community? I've never lived in one :) So I imagine a large gated area which only member of the church and the occasional tradesman can enter. But I have no idea if you live like that, or in a normal house mixed up with everyone else. Again one property of a cult is isolation and living in gated communities.

-- Updated January 31st, 2017, 12:28 pm to add the following --

Oh and just to be clear I'm not convinced that LDS as a whole is a cult (after reading up a bit). I think it's close but not quite there. I think you probably are free to leave the church and your parents probably would still talk to you, although it might take months or years. Certainly it wouldn't be easy. But then you could apply that logic to many scenarios, a lot of beliefs are cult like.

I guess from my perspective I don't see a huge amount of anti-mormonism, any more than I see anti anything else. There's always a group somewhere who is against you :)

As you said at the start Mormons are wonderful people. I at least agree they are people the same as everyone else. Some good some bad. I generally see more good in people than bad, but that's my romantic outlook on life. I personally like the goals of secularism. I don't want you to walk down the street and be persecuted for your beliefs. I would like people who do persecute you to be dealt with by the law. Of course I expect that to work both ways, I don't expect you to persecute me either :)
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Fooloso4
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Re: Why are people so against the Mormons?

Post by Fooloso4 »

-0+:
There may be a variety of reasons why people are against any X.
Right, that is my point. To single out Mormonism is to miss the larger dynamic of “the other”.

I take it thought that the intend of the OP was to discuss allegations and possible misunderstandings. Mormon apologetics. And in that case the topic title might have been formulated better.
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Re: Why are people so against the Mormons?

Post by -0+ »

Lark_Truth wrote:
Eduk wrote:So I guess there are a number of issues.
If you want more facts, Eduk, then I advise you visit Mormon.org to check out the LDS church for yourself. I don't advise you to do an internet search on Mormons to learn about them because you will get a lot of anti-mormon websites that are really negative towards the Church [...] Anyways, check out Mormon.org. Great site!
Anyone who is interested to know the full story may be better advised to check out all sides of the story, even though some sides of the story may include false information.

The subject of this discussion is not "What is the LDS church all about?". It is "Why are people so against the Mormons?"

To understand why some people are so against the Mormons, it will help to understand those who are against the Mormons and to study their websites.

To advise visiting mormon.org and not to do an internet search that may show a lot of anti-mormon websites is very revealing. This raises doubts about the sincerity of the opening question. How will turning a blind eye to the people in question help to answer the question about them? Is there any genuine interest to understand why people are so against the Mormons, or is this discussion mainly a ruse to promote a religious website?

It also appears that at least one person is anti (or at least not pro) anti-mormon websites, and that anti sentiments may be mutual (X is against Y and Y is against X). We can turn the question around: Why are people so against anti-mormon websites? If we ask this question, how reasonable would it be to advise not to listen to anyone who is against these websites?

It may also help to understand the nature of for and against, pro and anti, positive and negative, superior and inferior, good and bad, right and wrong, etc ... Each element depends on the existence of its opposite for its own existence.

In order for something to be superior, something else has to be inferior in comparison. John can't raise himself on a pedestal without lowering everyone else relative to him.

For and against tend to go together. It is possible to be neither for nor against, but if John is exclusively for X then John is against not-X, and someone else is likely to be against X.

If John simply believes that church X is true then this need not imply anything about the truth of other churches. But if John believes that X is the only true church then it follows that he must also believe all other churches are not true. John is therefore against all other churches to the extent that he has implicitly rejected them as not true. The more strongly he is exclusively for church X, the more strongly he will be against other churches.

Perhaps pro and anti sentiments need to exist in equal amounts, like matter and anti-matter, and it is not possible to generate pro sentiments without generating an equal amount of anti sentiments?

Why are some people so against Americans?

If the same applies here, then the more strongly some Americans are pro America and perceive or want America to be superior, the more strongly they will be anti other countries, and people in other countries are more likely to reciprocate by being anti American.
Dark Matter
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Re: Why are people so against the Mormons?

Post by Dark Matter »

Fooloso4 wrote:Lark_Truth:
So why are people so against the Mormons?
In what way does this question differ from the question of why are people so against any X? Is it a question about religion? If so, then how does it differ from the question of why are people so against the Jews? Why are people so against the Catholics? Why are people so against the Muslims? Or is it a matter of group identity? Why are people so against the Blacks? Why are people so against the French? Why are people so against the LGBT? Why are people so against the Republicans? Why are people so against the liberals?
You know the answer to that, but saying it is "against the rules."

-- Updated February 1st, 2017, 6:22 pm to add the following --

Political correctness should not trump reality — especially in a philosophy forum. So I'll say it anyway: Bigotry is part of the human condition.
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Atreyu
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Re: Why are people so against the Mormons?

Post by Atreyu »

Many people are "against" the Mormons because the belief system of the Mormons is so nonsensical, and people in general are "against" large organizations of people who have apparently crazy views.
Eduk
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Re: Why are people so against the Mormons?

Post by Eduk »

Many people are "against" the Mormons because the belief system of the Mormons is so nonsensical, and people in general are "against" large organizations of people who have apparently crazy views.
That applies to more or less everyone on the planet.
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Dark Matter
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Re: Why are people so against the Mormons?

Post by Dark Matter »

Atreyu wrote:Many people are "against" the Mormons because the belief system of the Mormons is so nonsensical, and people in general are "against" large organizations of people who have apparently crazy views.
Just like I said: bigotry is part of the human condition.
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Re: Why are people so against the Mormons?

Post by -0+ »

Dark Matter wrote:Political correctness should not trump reality — especially in a philosophy forum. So I'll say it anyway: Bigotry is part of the human condition.
Oxford defines 'bigotry' as "intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself".

Intolerance may accompany opposition but not necessarily. Some people tolerate other people they oppose more than others.

In a philosophy forum it is possible to strongly oppose other people who hold different opinions from oneself and yet tolerate or even encourage them by asking them questions or debating with them.

If John is often intolerant towards others who hold different opinions from himself - often enough to be called a bigot - but he is against some people who hold different opinions more than others, then bigotry wouldn't explain that. There must be some other explanation.
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Re: Why are people so against the Mormons?

Post by Dark Matter »

-0+ wrote:
Dark Matter wrote:Political correctness should not trump reality — especially in a philosophy forum. So I'll say it anyway: Bigotry is part of the human condition.
Oxford defines 'bigotry' as "intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself".

Intolerance may accompany opposition but not necessarily. Some people tolerate other people they oppose more than others.

In a philosophy forum it is possible to strongly oppose other people who hold different opinions from oneself and yet tolerate or even encourage them by asking them questions or debating with them.

If John is often intolerant towards others who hold different opinions from himself - often enough to be called a bigot - but he is against some people who hold different opinions more than others, then bigotry wouldn't explain that. There must be some other explanation.
Semantics: a distinction without a difference.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Why are people so against the Mormons?

Post by Sy Borg »

Is it be bigotry to consider a cargo cult's beliefs to be nonsensical? Or are we simply aware that the beliefs are nonsensical. Mormonism also has many ideas that stretch credulity, and beyond.
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Re: Why are people so against the Mormons?

Post by Dark Matter »

Who's the bigot: the bakery that refused to make a cake for a “gay” wedding or the people that put it out of business? Is profiling that has measurable success or “extreme vetting” bigotry or common sense? Is calling someone's religion “iron age superstition” bigotry or a simple expression of disagreement? Is opposition to illegal immigration bigotry or a desire to protect the state? Is my calling your beliefs narrow-minded bigotry, or simply being aware of your nonsensical beliefs that stretch credulity and beyond?

-- Updated February 3rd, 2017, 3:23 am to add the following --

I've said it before and I'll say it again: there are no true beliefs.

-- Updated February 3rd, 2017, 3:28 am to add the following --
"There is no trustworthy standard by which we can separate the “real” from the “unreal” aspects of phenomena. Such standards as exist are conventional: and correspond to convenience, not to truth. It is no argument to say that most men see the world in much the same way, and that this “way” is the true standard of reality: though for practical purposes we have agreed that sanity consists in sharing the hallucinations of our neighbours." -- Evelyn Underhill

-- Updated February 3rd, 2017, 4:21 am to add the following --

More to the point, it was asked, “Is it be bigotry to consider a cargo cult's beliefs to be nonsensical?” Nonsensical is defined as incongruous and inviting ridicule, so, yes. It is very bigoted. It expresses a self-assumed superiority that is both cruel and intolerant, as well as a complete failure to take into account an alien culture.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Why are people so against the Mormons?

Post by Sy Borg »

Dark Matter wrote:Who's the bigot: the bakery that refused to make a cake for a “gay” wedding or the people that put it out of business?
The bakery. Clearly.
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Re: Why are people so against the Mormons?

Post by Dark Matter »

Greta wrote:
Dark Matter wrote:Who's the bigot: the bakery that refused to make a cake for a “gay” wedding or the people that put it out of business?
The bakery. Clearly.
A bigoted remark, clearly.
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Re: Why are people so against the Mormons?

Post by Eduk »

I've said it before and I'll say it again: there are no true beliefs.
Are some beliefs more true than others though? There is of course the obvious question of asking is it true that there are no true beliefs (how would you prove it). For example do you believe that it's true that there are no true beliefs?

Dark Matter

Also you are mis-defining bigot. Simply disagreeing with a social group is not in and of itself bigotry. To be bigoted your own beliefs causing the disagreement need to be themselves narrow, superstitious or hypocritical etc. Basically if you disagree with someone and your own beliefs are unreasonable then you could be said to be bigoted. If you disagree with someone but your beliefs are reasonable then you aren't bigoted. Bigoted is a negative term, by your definition you could say every single human on the planet is a bigot.
Also the level of disagreement and the resultant actions must be taken into account. For example if I say I don't agree with Mormon beliefs but we live in a secular society and I will protect their rights to have freedom of belief (while those beliefs in turn allow other people freedom of belief, ie secularism works both ways) then that isn't bigoted. If I said I don't believe in Mormon beliefs therefore I will make Mormonism illegal and imprison anyone I catch practicing Mormonism, then that would be bigoted.
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