Evil's War against Religions
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Re: Evil's War against Religions
On what basis do you say there are "six value clusters"? Is this something that has been discovered to be true by observation? To be honest it sounds like one of those made up things, like the "seven signs of ageing" in Oil of Olay commercials. I guess I can just about see how there might be a distinction to be made between theoretical and practical - values that we would aspire to in an ideal world and values that we actually use in the real world - but I don't really know what you mean by the others. And I've no idea what you're referring to with the word "malignant". Do you have particular people in mind?
The concept of the six value clusters is found in some psychology textbooks and in some nursing textbooks also. I find that it is useful as an analytic tool. I cannot say whether it is based on observation or discovered meaning or whether it is a whole cloth creation out of nothing. Consider the differences between sociality values and power values. The former are people who want to get along with other people; the latter are people who want to dominate others (the bullies) and at worst they become sadists. Polarization between those two types results in sadomasochistic attachments between people.
I would refer to malignancy as the process in which people are treated MERELY as means to an end rather than as ends in themselves.
Values and their opposite dis-values are not necessarily thought through, but sprout from beliefs. For instance if someone believes in the greenhouse effect as being detrimental to the earth's environment and human life, they would likely value alternate forms of energy and dis-value the over use of oil.
-- Updated March 29th, 2017, 12:35 pm to add the following --
I believe that there is one thing that can be said about the devil, the malignancy, the demonic structure, the bad, the dark star, or whatever you would call it or him and that is that it or he is power tropic; as the course of flowing water is determined by gravity, so is the course of the demonic is determined by it's lust for power at the expense of anything else. It's motivation is likely both offense and defensive.
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Re: Evil's War against Religions
Which thought is extremely scary? That any being may be capable of changing its own plans? That any being may be its own greatest enemy?Lark_Truth wrote: That is an extremely scary thought.
We deal with thoughts and ideas here. What makes a thought extremely scary?
It may be possible to stop what a being is planning but how can anyone know it is successfully doing this without knowing what the being is actually planning? One might believe the being is planning one thing when in fact it is planning the opposite. Part of its plan could be to use reverse psychology. For example, any being who would like us to discuss the characteristics of God might declare: this is not a thread for discussing the the characteristics of God; it is for discussing devices of the devil. This might prompt some people to disobediently discuss characteristics of God here without realising they are fulfilling the being's true plan.Lark_Truth wrote:If we don't know who or what the devil is, how he works, and what he is capable of, then would it still be possible to stop this great enemy whom we are ignorant of?
It may not be possible to stop the devil from doing certain things, but it may be possible to stop viewing him as a great enemy. It may also be possible to stop fearing him. Does anyone ever choose to be afraid or does fear arise when something else isn't chosen?
It may not be possible to stop others from feeding false information but it may be possible to stop swallowing it.Lark_Truth wrote:Is it possible to stop an enemy who is feeding you false information?
Any being, real or imaginary, can be fought by opposing it. If the being is real, it may or may not fight back. If it is imaginary there is a good chance it will fight back. If there is any desire to fight then internal conflict can often be arranged.Lark_Truth wrote:How can we fight him?
Fighting is one option. Love is another option that can be considered.
Jesus said love your enemy. Is it possible to love your enemy and continue to view that being as your enemy?
Jesus also said the first great commandment is to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. If this commandment is obeyed, can there be any room left in one's mind for fearful or hostile thoughts?
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Re: Evil's War against Religions
Ignorance of ignorance could indeed be the problem as you say it is Fooloso4. That could very be one of the vile devices that the devil uses to lead men astray from Salvation.
I would think that Satan is very aware of what he is doing and is doing it intentionally, but it could very well be that he is so full of himself (and ignorant) that he works against himself and others. I can definitely see that. Yes . . .
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Re: Evil's War against Religions
There is truth in humor.Oh ha ha ha, it is to laugh, F4, very funny.
Or it could be that it is the condition by which men lead themselves and others astray and call a vile device of the devil.Ignorance of ignorance could indeed be the problem as you say it is Fooloso4. That could very be one of the vile devices that the devil uses to lead men astray from Salvation.
I am more concerned with what human beings do that they are not aware of when they tell such stories and look to something other than themselves as the source of the problem.I would think that Satan is very aware of what he is doing and is doing it intentionally
but it could very well be that he is so full of himself (and ignorant) that he works against himself and others. I can definitely see that.
Or it could very well be that we are so full of ourselves (and ignorant) that we work against ourselves and others. You definitely can not see that as long as you imagine the enemy is a devil that is not of us.
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Re: Evil's War against Religions
But could there be a devil who starts men onto paths of becoming devils themselves?
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Re: Evil's War against Religions
Man’s invention of the devil starts men onto devilish paths.But could there be a devil who starts men onto paths of becoming devils themselves?
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Re: Evil's War against Religions
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Re: Evil's War against Religions
Human beings, generally speaking, do things for reasons that if we know those human beings well enough we can discover. Fictitious characters only do what their authors want them to do. The only way to find out what a fictitious character will do and why he will do it is to ask the author.
To consider a wholly destructive act, such as for example a suicide bombing or the deliberate driving of a car through a crowd of pedestrians, and to say "the devil made them do it" is, in my opinion, a great wrong. It abdicates responsibility for finding out the real non-fictitious reasons why they acted as they did and to have a chance of preventing such acts in the future. It may be very hard to find those reasons. And if we do find them, it may explain the act but it won't excuse it or stop it from having happened. But that doesn't mean we should take the easy way out and retreat into comforting stories.
-- Updated Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:06 pm to add the following --
Gamnot:
We cannot see gravity either, but we still find it useful to postulate that there is such a thing as gravity because we have found it to be a useful concept in predicting the behaviour of things that we can see. We regard gravity as an underlying mechanism because it is predictively useful (useful for predicting things).If there is a devil we cannot see him, but we can see demonic structuring.
Could we say the same of the devil hypothesis? Is there anything predictively useful about it?
-- Updated Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:27 pm to add the following --
Gamnot:
You seem to see "power values" in particular as negative and I can of course see why. If a structure is put in place purely to enhance the personal power over other people of the person who builds that structure, to the detriment of those other people, then I think we can probably all agree that is not a good thing.Demonic or malignant structures are exceptionally authoritarian without any good reason.
But I still think that the most productive way to deal with this problem of human behaviour, as with all other problems of human behaviour, is to try to look for reasons why some people seem to lust after power for its own sake. Not just to say there are no reasons. Or that they're possessed by some other being (and therefore shift the problem on to trying to work out the motives of that other being, with the added difficulty that you're now dealing with a being that cannot be investigated because it doesn't objectively exist.)
I think we can use knowledge of human nature, evolution, psychology, the upbringing of the person in question, the environmental forces that shaped that person throughout their life so far, and various things like that to at least have a stab at working out why they behave as they do.
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Re: Evil's War against Religions
I agree with Steve's explanation of how we might rationalise our sins and faults. Steve's is a criticism of how the Christian Devil devolves our responsibility upon a superhuman force.To invent a character called the devil and propose that this character is what makes humans do destructive things is to give up trying to find a real reason for those things and therefore to give up trying to prevent them from happening in future.
But the humanistic Devil is the opposite personification. The humanistic Devil is a personification of whatever it is that makes humans explore the world as humans and thus disobey the priests' authority. The humanistic view of the Devil is the perspective on the snake in the Garden of Eden that the snake was put there intentionally by the good God so that humans might progress beyond the safety of the Garden. I like this version of the Devil and support him, and I regard him as not the opposite of good but as a force for good.
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Re: Evil's War against Religions
-- Updated March 31st, 2017, 9:57 am to add the following --
You do have a point there, Belindi, a very good point. Satan being used to test the human race to determine their worth for salvation.
Would he have his own agenda or does he have to follow God's?
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Re: Evil's War against Religions
The Christian doctrine does, I understand, account for the goodness of the humanist Satan who is the guiding spirit of human achievement and aspiration. God gave man freedom to go off on his own and make the best of the world without God. God subsequently saw how difficult it was for man to be so free and unguided. God therefore made covenants with man, and finally sent Jesus Christ to show man how to live so as to keep the covenants with God.Lark_Truth wrote:Poor devil, being used against himself.
-- Updated March 31st, 2017, 9:57 am to add the following --
You do have a point there, Belindi, a very good point. Satan being used to test the human race to determine their worth for salvation.
Would he have his own agenda or does he have to follow God's?
I place no value on a version of God as a tester whose function is to decide which man is good and which man is bad. If there is a God then He is a lot more spacious than that.
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Re: Evil's War against Religions
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Re: Evil's War against Religions
It depends what the people who invented the concept of Satan wanted him to follow. It's not really possible for somebody who didn't write the story to answer questions about the characters in the story without referring to the author(s), unless those characters appear to be realistic depictions of human beings that we can recognize from everyday life. In that case we can assume that the author meant those characters to be realistic in other ways too that were not included in the text of the story.Does Satan follow his own agenda or does he have to follow God's?
I have no idea what colour underwear Gandalf the Wizard wore because J R R Tolkien didn't include that information in the text. I have no idea what motivate Satan because he is not a character that I can relate to or see in everyday life. I cannot look around me at real life satans to get some ideas. But I can probably have a guess at some of the unwritten characteristics of fictional characters who are meant to be depictions of realistic people.
-- Updated Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:58 am to add the following --
Having said that, Belindi seemed to suggest earlier that the devil can be seen as a personification, or amalgamation, of certain human characteristics. Perhaps an abstract representation of all that we consider to be negative about human psychology? If viewed like that, perhaps we can to some extent predict the devil's motives by looking at the motives and behaviours of human beings?
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Re: Evil's War against Religions
I have actually answered that God permitted man to go it alone, therefore the Humanist Satan follows his own agenda. Since the humanist Satan is the personification of man's independent, sceptical, and free quest for truth and goodness, Satan follows his own agenda.Lark_Truth wrote:You're probably right there. But I don't think that you have answered by question: Does Satan follow his own agenda or does he have to follow God's?
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Re: Evil's War against Religions
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