Can the God be a "Conscious Earth"?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Re: Can the God be a "Conscious Earth"?

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Prothero wrote:Why stop with a "conscious earth"? Why not a "conscious universe"? Or why not attribute primitive forms of "mind" to every event and interaction (a form of panpsychism)? God then becomes the sum of all of the experience and sentience of the world, of all those interactions and relationships.
What we appear to have is reality on a number of levels going through stages of development towards ever greater connectivity and connectedness. For now I won't speak about the possibility of metaphysical connections between entities that we are yet to codify, just the apparent state of play.

For a while I've been intrigued by the relative differences of organisation in organisms - from eusocial colonies like ants to sponges, which are like a cross between a colony and an organism, to simple organisms with nerve nets like echinoderms and jellyfish, to animals with full nervous systems, to colonies of animals. In an organism with a fully integrated nervous system, if one part is damaged then that affects the whole organism. So, if we humans cut off a digit like the top of the pinky, the rest of the body responds. By contrast, if a starfish loses an arm, that's basically the unlucky arm's problem (and it will regrow); the other arms just keep trucking on :)

It's pretty clear that the Earth doesn't have that level of organisation, connectivity and mutual interdependence that an organism does. If, say, I am killed tomorrow, that would make no difference at all to most of the Earth - zip :) Still, given the different ways that reality can be divided, it's not always easy to understand many of our own connections, let alone those of other entities. No doubt we all miss a lot of cause and effect that's going on, maybe some subtle connections intuited but not understood. Whatever, the notion of a conscious Gaia strikes me as at least being premature. Maybe eventually, if humans don't err too badly, the Earth will form an integrated brain of sorts, but that seems to be a long way off.

As for the universe, the situation is more difficult still because most galaxies are speeding away from each other at a great rate. This leaves each galaxy to essentially become a universe/world unto itself, each akin to a spore flung by their parent ferns to the wind. What might a "mature" galaxy be like if full of life that have been spacefaring for a billion years or more? Probabilities would seem to favour that eventually some life or its robotic emissaries somewhere in galaxies will conquer interstellar travel. This will open the way to increased integration as each instance of intelligent life painstakingly expands its sphere of contact and influence. Some civilisations won't make it, either due to untimely cosmic collisions or tragedies of the commons. Still, in the big picture life seems always to find a way.

-- Updated 15 Jun 2017, 02:26 to add the following --

On the other side of the coin, I once had a peak experience where I felt an extraordinary sense of unconditional love and understanding, pretty well just like reports by gurus, mystics and patients who survived clinical death. I can't help wondering where that comes from. At the time I certainly felt like a much larger consciousness than I have encountered in "real life" was there. Much smarter, more aware, understanding, etc, and I was filled with bliss (no doubt dopamine was in full swing at this stage). The "larger conciousness" felt less a part of me than I a very small, somewhat disconnected, part of it.

Obviously, as a result, I've wondered about "other side" - maybe it's the spirits of ancestors as the old tribal people believed? Or maybe they are part of a greater spiritual web? It would be great to think so but it might also just be dopamine opening up good things in people's psyches that are locked away in their usual mental states. I don't know, so I remain open to but not entirely unconvinced about all of the above.
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Re: Can the God be a "Conscious Earth"?

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I'd agree in that, for as much as people like to talk about karma or some supervised learning program, I see no evidence for it. Life looks a lot closer to the kinds of things the Coen brother were making fun of in No Country For Old Men. It does seem like if you do the right things you may find a significant amount of buffering against certain kinds of things, I do think there may be more human group dynamic there than we can necessarily wrap our minds around, just that I tend to think it's something more like social visibility or visibility/invisibility to societal predators rather than anything morally related.
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Re: Can the God be a "Conscious Earth"?

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Papus79 wrote:I'd agree in that, for as much as people like to talk about karma or some supervised learning program, I see no evidence for it. Life looks a lot closer to the kinds of things the Coen brother were making fun of in No Country For Old Men. It does seem like if you do the right things you may find a significant amount of buffering against certain kinds of things, I do think there may be more human group dynamic there than we can necessarily wrap our minds around, just that I tend to think it's something more like social visibility or visibility/invisibility to societal predators rather than anything morally related.
Yes, Anton aka entropy could drop by at any moment :)

It's not guaranteed but in a population, those who do those things that buffer the blows of life, eg. temperance, exercise, saving, goodwill, Machiavellianism etc will be more likely to pass those qualities on via genetic or cultural transmission to others.

I think it's perfectly possible that the Earth is manipulating humans as much as humans are manipulating the planet. While we have seven billion people alive today, how many of them are happy with their lot? Many are tormented by the pressures brought on them by others, by privation and inequity, unfairness, abuse, neglect, disease, dysfunction, etc. Do we really want to live crammed up together, struggling through heavy traffic and pollution to increasingly pressurised and insecure jobs? Most would rather a gentler way of living but the most fierce competitors ensure that we are all driven hard, sometimes beyond our capacity to cope. I'm not seeing much control over our shared destiny rather than power struggles, winners and losers. Maybe we haven't grown up yet and will eventually emerge from the "bearpit"?
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Re: Can the God be a "Conscious Earth"?

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I think it'll just be fascinating to see how things work when our technology makes us obsolete in the workplace. On one hand some would welcome the relief, at the same time the full weight of dominance hierarchy, rank order by abuse, etc. would have to find a new path or it would easily go right off the rails. I'd guess that's where competitive sports and other achievements would have to make up the difference.

I've occasionally toyed with the idea that if we do generate AI and it gets any autonomy of its own we might also find ourselves rather quickly under something like a benevolent dictatorship where our own creations would be training us culturally, practicing eugenics so that only those who could be more like them would have a sperm meet an egg (probably no longer directly); it seems like an obvious shoe to have drop once one rogue/derelict mad scientist creates an AI with Isaac Asimov's laws for robots and tells it go off some place it'll never be found and make an army.

All of that's pretty far-flung from the original topic but, to your point about the earth manipulating us as much as we manipulate it - it would be impossible for that not to be the case. We're in a causal chain that bounces all over the place. Soil, terrain, and water flow have a lot to do with what food is where, what places are habitable or not, and from looking at some of how de-desertification like the project in China that John Liu made the movie about - it seems we're still a ways off from fully understanding how dense vegetation and biomes not only seem to draw moisture but yield river systems. Even if the earth didn't have one iota of consciousness it would be an incredibly intimate actor regardless because nearly all of our activities touch or interact with it's native forces and products in one way or another.
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Re: Can the God be a "Conscious Earth"?

Post by Atreyu »

I agree with the OP's general idea, and also the reply which said 'why stop with the Earth. Why not a conscious Universe?' The only logical explanation for a real 'God' would be to assert that the Universe is actually a conscious entity, a living organism. That is a 'God' that might actually exist, not one that would die to pay off man's sins, the requirement of payment being His own demand in the first place...
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Re: Can the God be a "Conscious Earth"?

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Earthellism recently scientifically and by pure math has discovered the proof of the location and nature of our God. After watching the movie Deep Impact about the extinction level comet and the potential end of the human species the math now adds up to prove who, where and what our God is. We have been long over due for many asteroids that should have easily hit our earth but did not. Even the 6 mile asteroid that caused the impact winter that killed off the dinosaurs and let us evolve into existence was in some ways divine intervention. It is now clear to earthellism that our God exists in the skies above us in the atmosphere or higher or even in our solar system near earth. Our God protects us from extinction from asteroids for now and controls the events in our solar system that provides the best chance for love of each other and of God to survive.
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Re: Can the God be a "Conscious Earth"?

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Papus79 wrote:I think it'll just be fascinating to see how things work when our technology makes us obsolete in the workplace. On one hand some would welcome the relief, at the same time the full weight of dominance hierarchy, rank order by abuse, etc. would have to find a new path or it would easily go right off the rails. I'd guess that's where competitive sports and other achievements would have to make up the difference.

I've occasionally toyed with the idea that if we do generate AI and it gets any autonomy of its own we might also find ourselves rather quickly under something like a benevolent dictatorship where our own creations would be training us culturally, practicing eugenics so that only those who could be more like them would have a sperm meet an egg (probably no longer directly); it seems like an obvious shoe to have drop once one rogue/derelict mad scientist creates an AI with Isaac Asimov's laws for robots and tells it go off some place it'll never be found and make an army.

All of that's pretty far-flung from the original topic but, to your point about the earth manipulating us as much as we manipulate it - it would be impossible for that not to be the case. We're in a causal chain that bounces all over the place. Soil, terrain, and water flow have a lot to do with what food is where, what places are habitable or not, and from looking at some of how de-desertification like the project in China that John Liu made the movie about - it seems we're still a ways off from fully understanding how dense vegetation and biomes not only seem to draw moisture but yield river systems. Even if the earth didn't have one iota of consciousness it would be an incredibly intimate actor regardless because nearly all of our activities touch or interact with it's native forces and products in one way or another.
Yes, but I suspect that the manipulation goes deeper again, to the point of triggering Zeitgeists. Not strategic manipulation, of course, rather the automatic kind that our body performs on its various systems, organs and cell groups to achieve stable body temperature, hormone levels, stomach acidity etc. Reality tends towards balance and homeostasis,

AI is not as tangential in this picture as it may seem. One way of looking at humans is that we are the Earth's most articulate and eloquent parts. We seem likely to be superseded in that regard. Thus, the biosphere as a whole is smarter, more aware of the complex knock-on causes and effects that impact on us.

AI has the potential (albeit not nearly as soon as some futurists suggest) of being the next great emergence after abiogenesis, multicellularity and humanity. People think of it as an outsider takeover in the same way as we assume that humans came to dominate the animal kingdom. Rather, it was an "inside job". Simply, a small percentage of animals became so empowered that they came to dominate most parts of the Earth at their scale (just as bacteria and ants did at their scales). As far as I can tell, cooperation and (horribly!) conformity are key to a species' success. In every domain - that of microbes, insects and large animals - the dominant species tend to be colonial rather than intrepid individuals or small group members.

A fair way into the future I think it likely that a certain percentage of AI-enhanced people will come to dominate the rest of humanity just as humans dominate other species. I expect that in terms of morality and understanding of reality, "cyborgs" will be more advanced than other people, just as we humans are more intelligent than other animals, like chess players who can see many moves ahead and thus can easily avoid pitfalls that ensnare the less aware.

Then again, if the human experience is any guide, any hyper-advanced eusocial AI-enhanced eusocial cyborgs will have far more complex issues to grapple with than we humans. Poor blighters :lol:

Life on earth has not only always struggled to survive, it's struggled to thrive, to spread its influence. Life's existential stance is basically, "I am a functional entity and I am compelled to spread that capacity as far as I can". Hence breeding. Hence exploration. Hence desire for power and status. Hence politics. Hence science and philosophy. Hence the space program - the Earth's life en masse trying to maximise its opportunities and minimise its suffering. So the "spirit of the Earth" (probably the cosmos) appears to be to grow - at least in this stage of the Earth's development.
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Re: Can the God be a "Conscious Earth"?

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While I think cyborg human-AI merges could go their own distance I do think the full-AI's, and I'm thinking of this particularly in light of something you said here, will lack a distinctly harsh disadvantage that the human-AI's will be strapped with. That is to say the observation that the human-AI's will have just as many complex emotional challenges as we do, accelerated to god and goddess-like levels of functioning and complexity, which will mean that AI's can populate faster than rabbits - really at whatever speed they can manufacture themselves, while cyborg-AI's will have all of the problems that we have as an intelligent species even driven to a worse extent and consequently - assuming super-genius - they'll for the most part have great luck at having about as many children as Nicola Tesla did. That leads me to think we'll be seeing a lot of the problems that Ernst Mayr talked about, ie. biological/evolutionary success being directly inverse-proportionate to intelligence and, who knows, this could be the ramping-down of the human species not by mass murder but by a known sense of futility and ultimately far less child-bearing.
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Re: Can the God be a "Conscious Earth"?

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All locality is as consciously aware as the observer is. Consciouness cannot be added to or taken away from by a brain or anything else in physics because it Consciouness is a constant in all Reference frames in the same way as c the speed of light is.
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Re: Can the God be a "Conscious Earth"?

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kk23wong wrote:I wonder nobody ever point out that the existence of the God is actually a "Conscious Earth", a life form of a higher level.

Is it possible? It is open to discussions.
This is a short, easy, straightforward question, and I am not going to pontificate like all yous guys and ladies and laddies have.

The question is, is it possible that God is actually a Conscious Earth.

The answer is, yes, it is possible.

------------

It is possible because it is 1. Not impossible, and 2. because if god is almighty, he can be anything he wants to be.

However, I find it highly improbable. So much so, that I dare to go out on a limb and say it is not true that god is conscious Earth. But still, it is possible.
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Re: Can the God be a "Conscious Earth"?

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Papus79 wrote:While I think cyborg human-AI merges could go their own distance I do think the full-AI's, and I'm thinking of this particularly in light of something you said here, will lack a distinctly harsh disadvantage that the human-AI's will be strapped with. That is to say the observation that the human-AI's will have just as many complex emotional challenges as we do, accelerated to god and goddess-like levels of functioning and complexity, which will mean that AI's can populate faster than rabbits - really at whatever speed they can manufacture themselves, while cyborg-AI's will have all of the problems that we have as an intelligent species even driven to a worse extent and consequently - assuming super-genius - they'll for the most part have great luck at having about as many children as Nicola Tesla did. That leads me to think we'll be seeing a lot of the problems that Ernst Mayr talked about, ie. biological/evolutionary success being directly inverse-proportionate to intelligence and, who knows, this could be the ramping-down of the human species not by mass murder but by a known sense of futility and ultimately far less child-bearing.
Sorry for the delay. Organisation is not my strong suit, or any kind of suit for me :)

I agree. The blend of biology and geology seems especially potent, capable of each domain's advantages.
-1- wrote:This is a short, easy, straightforward question, and I am not going to pontificate like all yous guys and ladies and laddies have.
Most of us have topics that bring out the pontificator in us.
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Re: Can the God be a "Conscious Earth"?

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Greta wrote: Most of us have topics that bring out the pontificator in us.
True. Also, or or else, the pontificator in us is brought out by topics. Any topic.

In every person there is a pontificator that tries to come out and all it needs is a topic to bait it.

A pontificator sits quietly, in motionless silence, in his lair, until a topic flies by in close proximity. Then the pontificator gets galvanized. He pounces at the topic like a cheetah! and pontificates it until the topic begs for merci.
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Re: Can the God be a "Conscious Earth"?

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I'll tell you what I find weird, that people think it's far fetched that humans are effectively acting as the Earth's reproductive system.

It's as though the idea that the Earth is alive in some way is far-fetched. Meanwhile the notion that out of Newton's lifeless billiard ball universe a completely new phenomena with nothing much to do with what came before arose. Yet our language betrays us, with cosmologists routinely referring to stars that are alive or dead, or planets that are geologically active or dead.

How different are emotions and the weather? One occurs in our heads, the other on the Earth's surface. Each has deeper overall trends based on the state of their internals and containing systems but, on an everyday level, surface activity tends to dictate what happens. So, in some parts of the world at any given time, the weather will be fierce and damaging and ditto in some parts of humanity, and so forth. Some areas are protected, others exposed. I could go on but not self conscious about pontification :)
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Re: Can the God be a "Conscious Earth"?

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I think people still tend to be suckers for appearance and anything that's difficult to digest they tend to either say 'Woah! Head asplode!' and forget they heard it five minutes later, or they'll act as though it's either dubious or just plain irrelevant. On one hand I don't think many of us have looked at the world in such a way to have the idea of emergent conscious systems all the way up to the planetary level, on the other it still seems like they tend to think that people who've had encounters with spiritual forces or what seem like electromagnetic lifeforms are just crazy - partly for what the faces of popular science would suggest and partly because evidence of the kind that they'd want to satisfy what they see as an extraordinary claim hasn't been forthcoming (or at least it tends to be in statistics and its really tough to tell, without knowing all of the results intimately, whether one side is reading tea leaves as the other side claims or whether one side is just spewing their account of their own philosophic commitments as the other side sometimes claims).

We live in a world also where there are some goofy agreements that certain topics no one can know anything on. Those agreements made sense when we had no hope of being able to study and research our way out of the dark and people were getting out of hand just on claims of one person or another that they had a divine revelation of some type and it was all 'this' way - the way it was conveyed to them. I think some of that may be heading toward obsolescence in this century if not the next. We're still in a spot where our understanding of particles and fields is far better than our understanding of consciousness, what actually caries consciousness, or what its ultimate qualities are in a 1:1 manner but for the last couple decades it seems like the research has been ramping up and it's quite likely that there'll be a lot less of the 'Well, no one really knows - everyone has to figure that out for themselves'. While that may allow for a wide variety of belief it also turns the relativism up and we're seeing that relativism is corrosive to culture. At some given point, on particular patterns, we can at least say that we know one thing or another clearly and with that there's a lot that often needs to go either into the discard heap of history or find itself remolded in conformity with current understanding. Doubtful that we'll know everything that this is all about or the grand cosmology of it all anytime soon but quite often there are falsifiable claims that either get edified or struck down according to excavated fact. I'm verify much for that process and we need to keep that endeavor moving.
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Re: Can the God be a "Conscious Earth"?

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"Head aspolde" :lol:
Papus79 wrote:We're still in a spot where our understanding of particles and fields is far better than our understanding of consciousness, what actually caries consciousness, or what its ultimate qualities are in a 1:1 manner but for the last couple decades it seems like the research has been ramping up and it's quite likely that there'll be a lot less of the 'Well, no one really knows - everyone has to figure that out for themselves'. While that may allow for a wide variety of belief it also turns the relativism up and we're seeing that relativism is corrosive to culture. At some given point, on particular patterns, we can at least say that we know one thing or another clearly and with that there's a lot that often needs to go either into the discard heap of history or find itself remolded in conformity with current understanding.
Well said!

I love science but it does has its idiot side, which largely pertains to consciousness, and foolishness stemming from 19th century materialism. Thus, when Jane Goodall reported her chimp findings her work was airily dismissed because only humans have personalities or emotions [sic]. Consider the blinkered obtuseness needed to maintain such a view, contrary to every single scrap of evidence available both then or now! While materialism was a reactionary response to reign in competing claims bring with a refusal to believe anything without evidence, it seems that people of the day were still influenced by theism's laser anthropocentric focus.

Even today there is a widely held view that humans are not actually a legitimate part of the planet, rather a cancer or a parasite. The notion that the Earth might simply metamorphose occasionally doesn't seem to register. Why not? It's done it a few times before, most notably The Great Oxygenation Event, "starring" blue-green algae, who managed to kill off about 90% of all the other microbes at the time, without which sentient life may never have evolved.

Is there a clear functional difference between humans in the biosphere and imaginal discs in the bodies of metamorphosing insects? In each instance the active agents (ie. humans or imaginal discs) essentially liquefy their surroundings and rebuild it into something capable of reproduction. Plants sometimes do a similar thing before they die. I have a swan's neck agave plant at home that is in is, erm, swansong, sprouting a glorious stem of flowers in a final bid for reproduction before snuffing it. The leaves below have already wilted considerably. I had a Gymea lily do a similar thing a couple of years ago, dying after a final glorious blooming.

The Earth is near the end of its life. After billions of years, given the projected effects of even a 10C rise in global temperatures, it seems that the Earth's surface will be largely inhospitable to life in a matter of millions of years or less thanks to our ageing sun. The situation is this: either humans send Earth's "stuff", along with the resources it needs, to other worlds to continue developing or the entire journey of Earth, and all of the potentials it contains, will be gone.

However, these plants did what previous successfully reproducing generations have done. Seemingly, the Earth has no such background, rather it reflects the activities of its inhabitants. That would be an absolute tragedy for life, having come this far and having made and corrected countless mistakes, to have to simply start again from scratch. Ugh. How cruel!

While we humans remain pretty primitive and amoral, we have improved and developed enormously in many important areas over our descendants of thousands of years ago, not to mention earlier life forms. While humans have well earned the growing self-flagellation, the negativity is overplayed. The idea of the "noble savage" or that the world would be better off without humans wildly underestimate just how much less brutal humans are today than before, simply by specialising and effectively outsourcing our savagery to a small minority of warriors. This has allowed for extraordinary gentrification, which we take for granted. Yet, if humans lived like those in the past or like other animals, life would be exceptionally short, hard and dangerous, especially in our current numbers.

// end pontification :)
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