Is faith a good way to believe?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Belindi
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Belindi » January 10th, 2018, 11:40 am

3uGH7D4MLj wrote:
January 9th, 2018, 9:45 pm
Belindi wrote:
December 30th, 2017, 7:35 am
If I had the full and passionate belief which the myth requires it would either be because I needed solace, or because the myth would be all that was left to inspire me to keep going. Pragmatic reasons for allowing my emotions to steer my beliefs.

Transcendent radical ethics requires a myth more suited to modern people. I'd like to see that happening. The old myth of Christ , although it can be interpreted as an allegory, is not the genre of story that can be popularised, largely because of the insistence of religious people that the history is the same as the myth.
That's the problem, and truth is such a petty requirement to put on myth, full of archetypes and symbolism, ambiguity and beauty. Isn't myth bigger than truth? It's a kind of super truth, not merely truth in a journalistic sense.

Is it possible for a person with a materialist worldview, say, a scientist, to be a devoted follower of the myth of Jesus, or any other spiritual path? Can you imagine having such a change in outlook? There are people who do just this, in spite of the problems that you cite. I think that mythology was always intended to have this kind of role, but we've lost the knack of seeing myth's function and power. mmm?
I am sorry you were disappointed with my reply 3uGH7D4MLJ so I will write another reply paying more attention to your actual questions.

I think it's possible for a scientist to be a devoted follower of the myth of Christ (not the myth of Jesus) only if the scientist is able and willing to interpret the myth as allegory. I think that any sort of substance monist ,(materialist, idealist, or dual aspect monist) can use myths and other symbolist media such as symbolist art or poetry for explaining the human condition .
I agree that myth is bigger than rational and empirical truths in that myth can not only explain but it can also guide and embrace the soul.

We need tertiary education free for all so that all people can apply the lessons in the Humanities to their lives. I believe that science should be taught at universities against a background of the arts and history of ideas. It is very important that we can all sort out bad myths from righteous myths. For this reason history of ideas should also figure in the scientist's education.

I hope I have answered you fully enough, and that you will respond.

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3uGH7D4MLj
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by 3uGH7D4MLj » January 19th, 2018, 12:09 am

Yes, well, now I have to go look up monism. Thanks for giving me some of my badly expressed points. But the thought just struck me, that one can join the catholic church because one likes the music. The worldview doesn't have to be that important. One can just as easily join for the love of Christ. It is possible for a modern person to entertain two different, even mutually excluding conceptual frameworks at once. So a rational materialist can attend, take the communion, and try to partake in Christ's pain, encourage his kids to model their thoughts on self sacrifice and humility.

And enjoy the advantages of the community, etc., without necessarily buying into the savior/afterlife business. I even think there is a kind of deep pleasure from taking some rapture and passion from the story if you could take it that far, like falling in love.

Simone Weil is in my mind when I consider these things and I think a religion of radical ethics, transcendent radical ethics, could be possible, and it could partake of the passion of Christ. After all, human rights is really the only issue. Hm, I may be describing the Unitarians.
fair to say

Belindi
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Belindi » January 19th, 2018, 7:39 am

I have thought of joining the RC Church because of the music and other benefits . I have held back because I'd have to get up early, and also I suspected that the RC homilies may be as platitudinous as the other religious sects. I'd do better with the Latin mass as I could not understand it.

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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by 3uGH7D4MLj » January 19th, 2018, 12:10 pm

If I was to become a Catholic I would immediately seek out a Latin mass, absolutely.
fair to say

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LuckyR
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by LuckyR » January 19th, 2018, 2:42 pm

3uGH7D4MLj wrote:
January 19th, 2018, 12:10 pm
If I was to become a Catholic I would immediately seek out a Latin mass, absolutely.
Makes total sense since it is, essentially theatre.

Sometime during the 1980s an Anglo-Catholic priest of the church said to me exactly that with regard to his Anglo-Catholic church service.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Belindi » January 20th, 2018, 6:30 am

I have a horrible feeling that I might possibly have deleted one of 3uGH7D4MLj's posts in error. I got into a muddle copying and pasting. Sorry, 3uGH.I recall that 3uGH's post was to the effect that he or she would like a service that allows one to concentrate on own thoughts and feelings.



I think I have been told that the Russian Orthodox Church service is about being with your own thoughts and feelings very much so. The holy ikons are about expressing feelings not about knowledge and beliefs.

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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by 3uGH7D4MLj » January 20th, 2018, 11:08 am

LuckyR wrote:
January 19th, 2018, 2:42 pm
Makes total sense since it is, essentially theatre.

Sometime during the 1980s an Anglo-Catholic priest of the church said to me exactly that with regard to his Anglo-Catholic church service.
What do you mean by that? That it isn't "true"? The stories of the church are literature which became myth, and mythology can have power beyond the truth.

Karen Armstrong is good on this point, that our expectation of journalistic truth is so strong that myth has no function in our society. Myth is simply not true, and so is worthless. This is a powerful message which a lot of us in the west have grown up with. I'm trying to change my thinking.
fair to say

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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Belindi » January 20th, 2018, 1:05 pm

Actually it was I who reported what the Anglo-Catholic priest said to me personally. I had just informed him that a local Humanist had said so, and the priest was agreeing with the Humanist.

Karen Armstrong is excellent. I like "journalistic truth"! Nonetheless we all need to decide which are good myths and which bad. Some other myths are of historic or anthropological interest only.

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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Fooloso4 » January 20th, 2018, 1:41 pm

3uGH7D4MLj:
Karen Armstrong is good on this point, that our expectation of journalistic truth is so strong that myth has no function in our society. Myth is simply not true, and so is worthless.
I do not think this is Armstrong’s position. Myth has always had a function in society, and still does. We misunderstand myths when we think in terms of the dichotomy truth or fact and fiction, but not all truths are factual truth or propositional truths. There are truths that may not be evident in the facts. As with other forms of art, myths show us a way of regarding or seeing something, they can inspire.

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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by 3uGH7D4MLj » January 20th, 2018, 5:11 pm

Fooloso4 wrote:
January 20th, 2018, 1:41 pm
3uGH7D4MLj:
Karen Armstrong is good on this point, that our expectation of journalistic truth is so strong that myth has no function in our society. Myth is simply not true, and so is worthless.
I do not think this is Armstrong’s position. Myth has always had a function in society, and still does. We misunderstand myths when we think in terms of the dichotomy truth or fact and fiction, but not all truths are factual truth or propositional truths. There are truths that may not be evident in the facts. As with other forms of art, myths show us a way of regarding or seeing something, they can inspire.
There may be a misunderstanding, I was a little too brief. Armstrong says that the sacred stories were never intended to be history or truth and that it is a mistake to treat them as such.

I got the idea from reading her that our society is out of touch with the function and uses of myth. We expect journalistic truth from myth, which isn't its function at all. The easiest example of this is the current definition of the word, which is simply "a false belief."
fair to say

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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Fooloso4 » January 20th, 2018, 6:37 pm

3uGH7D4MLj:
There may be a misunderstanding, I was a little too brief. Armstrong says that the sacred stories were never intended to be history or truth and that it is a mistake to treat them as such.

I got the idea from reading her that our society is out of touch with the function and uses of myth. We expect journalistic truth from myth, which isn't its function at all. The easiest example of this is the current definition of the word, which is simply "a false belief."
This sounds more like what I remember from reading Armstrong.

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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by 3uGH7D4MLj » January 21st, 2018, 12:18 am

Yah, my statement earlier was too strong.
fair to say

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