Is faith a good way to believe?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Fooloso4
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Fooloso4 »

Nick_A:
Plato spoke of remembrance and Einstein spoke of intuition. Both are the results of awakening to reality hidden by the literal mind.
We have been through this before, more than once. I provided specific and sufficient textual evidence that you have misunderstood what Einstein said about intuition and what Plato said about remembrance. And yet here we are once again you repeating the same unsubstantiated claims.

Apparently you think that your comments about the literal mind give you the freedom to simply ignore what Einstein and Plato actually said. Of course this makes it easy to pretend that they are all essentially saying the same thing.

And it gives you another opportunity to once again rant about secularism, the Great Beast, education, indoctrination, experts, etc.

Dark Matter:
Not only is your constant hair-splitting boring, but so are your non sequiturs and sophistry.
So then why do you bother reading my posts?
Dark Matter
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Dark Matter »

Fooloso4 wrote: So then why do you bother reading my posts?
I seldom do, but once in a while I have to remind myself why you're such a bore.

-- Updated March 16th, 2017, 11:26 pm to add the following --

Your spin on things are quite imaginative.
Nick_A
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Nick_A »

Fooloso4 wrote:Nick_A:
Plato spoke of remembrance and Einstein spoke of intuition. Both are the results of awakening to reality hidden by the literal mind.
We have been through this before, more than once. I provided specific and sufficient textual evidence that you have misunderstood what Einstein said about intuition and what Plato said about remembrance. And yet here we are once again you repeating the same unsubstantiated claims.

Apparently you think that your comments about the literal mind give you the freedom to simply ignore what Einstein and Plato actually said. Of course this makes it easy to pretend that they are all essentially saying the same thing.

And it gives you another opportunity to once again rant about secularism, the Great Beast, education, indoctrination, experts, etc.

F4 you don't see how silly you appear. You contend that remembrance is a noble lie. You probably think that intuition is an accident appearing as the universe does by accident. You may want to believe this but I can live without your faith in accidents.

Dark Matter:
Not only is your constant hair-splitting boring, but so are your non sequiturs and sophistry.
So then why do you bother reading my posts?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Dark Matter
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Dark Matter »

I seldom do for the simple reason you argue for the sake of arguing.

-- Updated March 17th, 2017, 1:10 am to add the following --

Nick:
F4 does not know what faith is, nor does he want to know. His cup is already full.

-- Updated March 17th, 2017, 1:00 pm to add the following --

Faith is an act of ultimate concern, not mere belief. It is an act of the entire self as a unified whole and therefore does not exclude the power of reason.

Now, it has been argued that an “ultimate concern” entails belief and therefore faith is about belief, but this is mere sophistry. Genuine faith also has an element negation. The idea representing the ultimate concern is not symbolic of a fixed commodity. This is why it can be said, “It matters little what idea of the Father you may entertain as long as you are spiritually acquainted with the ideal of his infinite and eternal nature.” (UB) The ideal evolves with man's comprehension of the cosmos, but the symbols are relatively constant.

Rather than refer once again to Lucy, which by itself effectively debunks any sophist attempt to discredit faith and man's innate desire to reach beyond himself, here is something from the Wingmaker's website:
My Central Message

I convey this message to you whom I have stirred with the sound of my voice. These words are my signature. You may bring your doubt, your fear, your faith, or your courage; it matters not, for you will be touched by the rhythm of my voice. It moves through you like a beam of light that sweeps – if only for a moment – the darkness aside.

I dwell in a frequency of light in which finite beings cannot uncover me. If you search for me, you will fail. I am not found or discovered. I am only realized in oneness, unity, and wholeness. It is the very same oneness that you feel when you are interconnected with all of life, for I am this and this alone. I am all of life. If you must search for me, then practice the feeling of wholeness and unity.

In my deepest light I created you from my desire to understand my universe. You are my emissaries. You are free to journey the universe of universes as particles from my infinite womb with destinies that you alone will write. I do not prescribe your journey or your journey’s aim. I only accompany you. I do not pull you this way or that, nor do I punish you when you stray from my heart. This I do as an outcome of my belief in you.

You are the heirs of my light, which gave you form. It is my voice that awakened you to individuality, but it will be your will that awakens you to our unity. It is your desire to know me as your self that brings you to my presence so perfectly hidden from your world. I am behind everything that you see, hear, touch, taste, smell, feel, and believe.

I live for your discovery of me. It is the highest expression of my love for you, and while you search for my shadows in the stories of your world, I, the indelible, invisible light, grow increasingly visible. Imagine the furthest point in space – beneath a black portal, cast in some distant galaxy, and then multiply this distance by the highest numeric value you know. Congratulations, you have measured an atom of my body.

Do you realize how I am unfathomable? I am not what you can know, or see, or understand. I am outside comprehension. My vastness makes me invisible and unavoidable. There is nowhere you can be without me. My absence does not exist. It is this very nature that makes me unique. I am First Cause and Last Effect connected in an undivided chain.

There is no supplication that stirs me. No prayer that invites me further into your world unless it is attended with the feeling of unity and wholeness. There is no temple or sacred object that touches me. They do not, nor have they ever brought you closer to my outstretched hand. My presence in your world is unalterable for I am the sanctuary of both the cosmos and the one soul inside you.

I could awaken each of you in this very moment to our unity, but there is a larger design – a more comprehensive vision – that places you in the boundaries of time and the spatial dimensions of separateness. This design requires a progression into my wholeness that reacquaints you with our unity through the experience of separation. Your awakening, while slow and sometimes painful, is assured, and this you must trust above all else.

I am the ancestral father of all creation. I am a personality that lives inside each of you as a vibration that emanates from all parts of your existence. I reside in this dimension as your beacon. If you follow this vibration, if you place it at the core of your journey, you will contact my personality that lives beneath the particles of your existence.

I am not to be feared or held in indifference. My presence is immediate, tangible, and real. You are now in my presence. Hear my words. You are in my presence. You are within me more than I am within you. You are the veneer of my mind and heart, and yet you think yourself the product of an ape. You are so much more than you realize.

Our union was, is, and will be forevermore. You are my blessed offspring with whom I am intricately connected in means that you cannot understand and therefore appreciate. You must suspend your belief and disbelief in what you cannot sense, in exchange for your knowing that I am real and live within you. This is my central message to all my offspring. Hear it well, for in it you may find the place in which I dwell.
I realize that to the carnal mind this is nonsense and easily targeted by secular minds. That doesn't matter. It represents something realized, not merely something believed, conceived or imagined. Faith participates in the realization that, ultimately, I am that which is in all things.
Nick_A
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Nick_A »

DM


Nick:
F4 does not know what faith is, nor does he want to know. His cup is already full.

-- Updated March 17th, 2017, 1:00 pm to add the following --

Faith is an act of ultimate concern, not mere belief. It is an act of the entire self as a unified whole and therefore does not exclude the power of reason.

Now, it has been argued that an “ultimate concern” entails belief and therefore faith is about belief, but this is mere sophistry. Genuine faith also has an element negation. The idea representing the ultimate concern is not symbolic of a fixed commodity. This is why it can be said, “It matters little what idea of the Father you may entertain as long as you are spiritually acquainted with the ideal of his infinite and eternal nature.” (UB) The ideal evolves with man's comprehension of the cosmos, but the symbols are relatively constant.
You obviously agree with me that there is a level of reality far beyond what our literal mind can comprehend but at the same time devolves into a level of reality our senses do comprehend. Plato’s divided line separates planes of existence.

I have two basic questions. Do you recognize the difference between “I am the light” and “let there be light?” as expressed in Genesis 1?

My second questions concerns the concept of the elite. As you know anyone aware of levels of reality that can be felt by faith is considered an elitist by the secular mind. In other words if the senses cannot document it, it doesn’t exist. The Bible speaks of the elect. Secularists insist we are all the same and a suggestion of hierarchy is insulting. Why IYO is this so? We can agree that there are intellectual levels of understanding as in math for example producing a hierarchy of understanding. Yet for some reason the idea that the mind remains closed until for some reason it opens is an affront to the “educated” mind. What IYO is the cause of this lack of humility which stimulates IMO unnatural denial?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Dark Matter
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Dark Matter »

Nick_A wrote: You obviously agree with me that there is a level of reality far beyond what our literal mind can comprehend but at the same time devolves into a level of reality our senses do comprehend. Plato’s divided line separates planes of existence.
I do.
I have two basic questions. Do you recognize the difference between “I am the light” and “let there be light?” as expressed in Genesis 1?
Yes, but my understanding might be different than yours. The latter symbolizes the primal differentiation of the One; i.e., the division between light (spirit) and the dark (matter). The UB puts it this way:
God, as the First Source and Center, is primal in relation to total reality — unqualifiedly. The First Source and Center is infinite as well as eternal and is therefore limited or conditioned only by volition.
and
This is the primal concept of original reality: The Father initiates and maintains Reality. The primal differentials of reality are the deified and the undeified.
“I am the light” symbolizes total personality-identification with the light.
My second questions concerns the concept of the elite. As you know anyone aware of levels of reality that can be felt by faith is considered an elitist by the secular mind. In other words if the senses cannot document it, it doesn’t exist. The Bible speaks of the elect. Secularists insist we are all the same and a suggestion of hierarchy is insulting. Why IYO is this so? We can agree that there are intellectual levels of understanding as in math for example producing a hierarchy of understanding. Yet for some reason the idea that the mind remains closed until for some reason it opens is an affront to the “educated” mind. What IYO is the cause of this lack of humility which stimulates IMO unnatural denial?
I think a lot of it is fostered by a misconstrued understanding of the idea that all men are created equal. Secularism grabbed hold of it, made it religious ideal, and use it to perpetrate the greatest fraud on man by man that can be imagined: egalitarianism. True, we are all equal in spirit-potential, but that does not translate into all-around equality.

Personally, I'm not sure that it's a lack of humility stimulating an unnatural denial in man. I think it's more likely as it is indolence and/or cowardice. Insight is a muscle that needs to be exercised, and it's much easier to criticize from the sidelines via the intellect than to participate in Being with the whole self.
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Felix
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Felix »

Ozymandias: As I have grown to understand from my life and experience, faith is the suspension of critical thought, to be replaced by a trust in/ hope for the truth of something.
I don't see faith as any more antithetical to critical thought than is love. Why do you think it is?
Ozymandias: Also, in my experience I have found that faith is not necessary for belief in God.
I find it ironic that you proceed to contradict that statement by listing common arguments against the existence of God - the prevalence of evil, etc. I suppose that means that faith is only unnecessary if one's belief in God is unreasonable?
Ozymandias: It's great when you have not the time or energy to find actual explanations for hard theological questions, but by taking the time to work out the hard questions....
Your argument seems to be that, through reason alone, one can find conclusive evidence for the existence of God and irrefutable answers to all the hard theological questions, and therefore faith is unnecessary and irrelevant?

It doesn't sound like you understand what faith truly is: it is suprarational, not rational/irrational, and belief or disbelief in a God or Gods is actually extraneous to it.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Dark Matter
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Dark Matter »

Felix wrote: It doesn't sound like you understand what faith truly is: it is suprarational, not rational/irrational, and belief or disbelief in a God or Gods is actually extraneous to it.
Well said. Unfortunately, superstition and propaganda has many people absolutely and dogmatically convinced that faith is a suspension of reason and belief in an unsubstantiated idea, which, as you know, idolatry: mistaking the finger pointing to the moon for the moon itself.
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Rr6
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Rr6 »

Faith = placebo effect and it has been shown to be effective 10% of time in some lab studies.

Faith can be based upon--- stem from ---rational or irrational concepts.

r6
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-1-
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by -1- »

Fooloso4 wrote:Nick_A:
Plato spoke of remembrance and Einstein spoke of intuition. Both are the results of awakening to reality hidden by the literal mind.
We have been through this before, more than once. I provided specific and sufficient textual evidence that you have misunderstood what Einstein said about intuition and what Plato said about remembrance. And yet here we are once again you repeating the same unsubstantiated claims.

Apparently you think that your comments about the literal mind give you the freedom to simply ignore what Einstein and Plato actually said. Of course this makes it easy to pretend that they are all essentially saying the same thing.

And it gives you another opportunity to once again rant about secularism, the Great Beast, education, indoctrination, experts, etc.
And then you proposed, F4, that my insistence on deciding things by logic is stupid.

Look at your argument now. It had been perfectly logical, reasonable, and the only reason you can't enforce it is that logic is not the deciding force de rigeur on this site. People can perfectly well ignore logic, as the example shows. Here you are upset about it. On my thread you perfected the way of trying to prove to not use logic as a presiding instrument.

So which is it, O F4? You can't play for both teams. You can't decry logic and at the same time demand that when you use logical arguments, others heed to it.

Swim and stew in the same lukewarm water you keep creating, F4.

------
Don't get me wrong, I am on the side of logic. I am just befuddled at your hypocritical ways: when you do demand that people heed to logic, it's a righteous demand, when I demand it, you try to prove it that it's a silly demand.

You are two-faced about this, and you know it better than I do.
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Felix
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Felix »

Rr6: Faith = placebo effect and it has been shown to be effective 10% of time in some lab studies.
That's a different subject but the efficacy rate of placebos has been shown to be much higher than that - 20% or higher. In fact just the other day a drug company's stock (Amgen) dropped because their expensive new cholesterol lowering drug couldn't outperform the common placebo efficacy rate of 20%.
Rr6: Faith can be based upon -- stem from -- rational or irrational concepts.
My point was that the real thing is not based on mental beliefs at all (as is the placebo effect) but has an experiential basis.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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Rr6
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Rr6 »

Rr6: Faith = placebo effect and it has been shown to be effective 10% of time in some lab studies.
Felix---That's a different subject but the efficacy rate of placebos has been shown to be much higher than that - 20% or higher. In fact just the other day a drug company's stock (Amgen) dropped because their expensive new cholesterol lowering drug couldn't outperform the common placebo efficacy rate of 20%.
When you have some rational, logical common sense to complement your belief, please share. I have no doubt that different lab studies results vary.

Faith = belief = placebo effect. Simple not complex. imho
Rr6: Faith can be based upon -- stem from -- rational or irrational concepts.

My point was that the real thing is not based on mental beliefs at all (as is the placebo effect) but has an experiential basis.
"real thing"? Felix, when you have some rational, logical, common sense to complement your belief/faith/placebo effect, please share.

r6
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Fooloso4
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Fooloso4 »

-1-:
And then you proposed, F4, that my proposal and my insistence on deciding things by logic and using reason is stupid.
I will repeat what I said in response to you posting this in another thread:

You misunderstood me. I think we should all strive to be use reason, present and defend our arguments logically, and point out to others when their arguments are not logical or reasonable. That, however, is as far as we can take it. We should not appeal to the forum rules and insist that something be done when we do not think someone else is being logical or reasonable. People can and do disagree as to what is reasonable and logical. I also pointed out that there are various logical systems and pointed out some problems with the claim that logic is not subjective.
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Cmlala17
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Cmlala17 »

On the Moral and Legal Status of Abortion Mary Anne Warren

Mary Anne Warren argues that abortion is not morally wrong because fetuses are not persons, and it is not wrong to kill non-persons. But in her article she responds to an objection that her view problematically implies that killing babies is morally permissible as well. How does she respond to this objection? Do you agree or disagree?

The question which we must answer in order to produce a satisfactory solution to the problem of the moral status of abortion is this: How are we to define the moral community, the set of beings with full and equal moral rights, such that we can decide whether a human fetus is a member of this community or not? What sort of entity, exactly, has the inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Jefferson attributed these rights to all men, and it may or may not be fair to suggest that he intended to attribute them only to men. Perhaps he ought to have attributed them to all human beings. If so, then we arrive, first, at [John] Noonan's problem of defining what makes a being human, and, second, at the equally vital question which Noonan does not consider, namely, What reason is there for identifying the moral community with the set of all human beings, in whatever way we have chosen to define that term?
1. ON THE DEFINITION OF "HUMAN"
One reason why this vital second question is so frequently overlooked in the debate over the moral status of abortion is that the term `human' has two distinct, but not often distinguished, senses. This fact results in a slide of meaning, which serves to conceal the fallaciousness of the traditional argument that since (1) it is wrong to kill innocent human beings, and (2) fetuses are innocent human beings, then (3) it is wrong to kill fetuses. For if `human' is used in the same sense in both (1) and (2) then, whichever of the two senses is meant, one of these premises is question-begging. And if it is used in two different senses then of course the conclusion doesn't follow.
Thus, (1) is a self-evident moral truth,' and avoids begging the question about abortion, only if `human being' is used to mean something like `a full-fledged member of the moral community.' (It may or may not also be meant to refer exclusively to members of the species Homo sapiens.) We may call this the moral sense of `human.' It is not to be confused with what we call the genetic
sense, i.e., the sense in which any member of the species is a human being, and no member of any other species could be. If (1) is acceptable only if the moral sense is intended, (2) is non-question-begging only if what is intended is the genetic sense.
In "Deciding Who is Human," Noonan argues for the classification of fetuses with human beings by pointing to the presence of the full genetic code, and the potential capacity for rational thought.' It is clear that what he needs to show, for his version of the traditional argument to be valid, is that fetuses are human in the moral sense, the sense in which it is analytically true that all human beings have full moral rights. But, in the absence of any argument showing that whatever is genetically human is also morally human, and he gives none, nothing more than genetic humanity can be demonstrated by the presence of the human genetic code. And, as we will see, the potential capacity for rational thought can at most show that an entity has the potential for becoming human in the moral sense.
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Felix
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Felix »

Rr[quote][/quote]
6: I have no doubt that different lab studies results vary.

What is it you think the placebo effect is? It is a psychological response and cannot be the subject of "lab studies."

I could agree that faith also has a psychological basis but that wouldn't be saying much because it's a very broad term that can encompass a wide range of mental/emotional perception and responses.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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