Is faith a good way to believe?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Rr6
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Rr6 » March 19th, 2017, 9:48 pm

Felix---Rr6...What is it you think the placebo effect is?
Ive laid that clearly already. Faith/belief/placebo effect.
It is a psychological response and cannot be the subject of "lab studies."
Previously you said placebo effect was 20% in studies not you refute lab studies. You contradict yourself ergo lacking rational, logical common sense. imho
I could agree that faith also has a psychological basis but that wouldn't be saying much because it's a very broad term that can encompass a wide range of mental/emotional perception and responses.
Yeah, psycho/mental/mind/intellect etc are all pretty much the same thing. Faith/belief/placebo effect are direct resultants or associations to those previous synonyms. Simple not complex. imho

r6
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Belindi
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Belindi » March 20th, 2017, 6:28 am

Faith is a good way to believe only if faith is preceded by knowledge and sceptical criticism.

An individual may reason that they will , for sufficient ethical and practical reasons, be better as a person of faith.

We need to address the question above firstly by which particular faith we are thinking of, and then listing what we know about it and its advantages and disadvantages.

There are those who will argue that mystical knowledge is knowledge and a man can possibly know whether or not some object of faith is true or not. This is an unreasonable claim in the year 2017 and needs outstandingly thorough evidence to back it up before we can take it seriously. Because the claim of mystical knowledge has never been substantiated the claim of mystical knowledge harms the cause of a reasonable faith. In this perilous day and age we all need a reasonable faith.

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Rr6
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Rr6 » March 20th, 2017, 7:36 am

Faith/trust also synonyms ex we have faith/trust that the auto approaching us will not cross the center line and collide with us, even tho we know that such events do happen sometimes to some people.

Complacency is placebo effect, or resultant thereof.

Faith/trust/belief/placebo effect/complacency and in some cases healing. Healing occurs perhaps because of less systemic tension occurring i.e. more relaxed = greater chance of healing.

We have faith/belief/trust that 85% of any conflicts that come our way can be resolved via communication.

Circumstances alter cases and some humans may find themselves in environmental circumstances where their faith/trust/beliefs are more challenged, so we make adjustments as we acclimate to our new environmental circumstances/situations/conditions.

r6
Rr6 wrote:
Felix---Rr6...What is it you think the placebo effect is?
Ive laid that clearly already. Faith/belief/placebo effect.
It is a psychological response and cannot be the subject of "lab studies."
Previously you said placebo effect was 20% in studies not you refute lab studies. You contradict yourself ergo lacking rational, logical common sense. imho
I could agree that faith also has a psychological basis but that wouldn't be saying much because it's a very broad term that can encompass a wide range of mental/emotional perception and responses.
Yeah, psycho/mental/mind/intellect etc are all pretty much the same thing. Faith/belief/placebo effect are direct resultants or associations to those previous synonyms. Simple not complex. imho

r6
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Newme
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Newme » November 24th, 2017, 11:25 pm

Steve3007 wrote: Newme:
To pretend you are not having faith in anything - that you don't have limited, subjective beliefs is foolish.
I don't see why you see "not having faith in anything" and "not having limited subjective beliefs" as synonymous. I doubt whether there are very many people who think their beliefs are based on limitless and entirely objective knowledge. I'm sure there are some people who consider themselves to have godlike omniscience, but not many. But lacking knowledge does not automatically mean that faith has to take its place, does it? Isn't it possible to simply accept that we don't know lots of stuff without having to invoke the concept of faith?
Faith is to trust without proof. Nothing of the future is guaranteed. You don’t have proof that you will get to your destination when you get in your car and have faith you will get where you want to go. Etc.

“All have faith but not all are conscious of having faith.”

The more interesting question is, “How best to focus faith?”

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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Belindi » November 25th, 2017, 6:33 am

Newme wrote:
Steve3007 wrote: Newme:

(Nested quote removed.)


I don't see why you see "not having faith in anything" and "not having limited subjective beliefs" as synonymous. I doubt whether there are very many people who think their beliefs are based on limitless and entirely objective knowledge. I'm sure there are some people who consider themselves to have godlike omniscience, but not many. But lacking knowledge does not automatically mean that faith has to take its place, does it? Isn't it possible to simply accept that we don't know lots of stuff without having to invoke the concept of faith?
Faith is to trust without proof. Nothing of the future is guaranteed. You don’t have proof that you will get to your destination when you get in your car and have faith you will get where you want to go. Etc.

“All have faith but not all are conscious of having faith.”

The more interesting question is, “How best to focus faith?”
I don't agree that how to focus faith is interesting. Faith is best left unfocused , as faith unfocused is what prevents despair. Faith focused deteriorates into a fruitless search for certainty like what Steve decries.

-- Updated November 25th, 2017, 6:37 am to add the following --
Belindi wrote:
Newme wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

Faith is to trust without proof. Nothing of the future is guaranteed. You don’t have proof that you will get to your destination when you get in your car and have faith you will get where you want to go. Etc.

“All have faith but not all are conscious of having faith.”

The more interesting question is, “How best to focus faith?”
I don't agree that how to focus faith is interesting. Faith is best left unfocused , as faith unfocused is what prevents despair. Faith focused deteriorates into a fruitless search for certainty like what Steve decries.
Faith focused becomes religious creeds which are themselves idolatrous. We can see from current events how credal institutions such as political parties, and religions, are false idols which lead people into inhumanity and imprudence.

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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Spectrum » November 25th, 2017, 11:57 pm

Re Kant, I will present 'faith' in the following perspective;
  • Faith
    1. belief that is not based on proof:
    2. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
    3. strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

    -Google Dictionary &
    -http://www.dictionary.com/browse/faith
The relation between belief, truth and faith is as follows;

1. Opinion - lack subjectivity and objectivity = 99% faith
2. Beliefs - sufficient subjectivity, personal conviction, lack objectivity = 90% faith
3. Knowledge [truth] - sufficient subjectivity and objectivity = 1-5% faith.

In the above case, even scientific truths has some degree of faith, e.g. 1-5%.
Most lay people who did not perform the proof will have 90% faith in scientific theories.

Is faith a good way to believe?
Depend on the degrees of psychological desperation, low desperation = lower degree of faith, higher desperation = higher degree of faith.

When one is under pressure with high psychological desperation and urgency, one will have to sacrifice objective for personal subjectivity & conviction, thus rely heavily on faith.
This is what happened with theists who are caught within a psychological turbulence and whirlpool, and when they do not has the mental capacity to get them out of the desperation, so they naturally will opt for heavy dose of faith to deal with the psychological existential crisis.

In foxholes, the existential crisis can be amplified and brought into critical attention, this is why the general saying, there are no atheist in foxholes. [it is not necessary a truth].
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Namelesss » November 27th, 2017, 2:21 pm

Ozymandias wrote:
Faith vs Beliefs

A 'belief' is a pathologically symptomatic infection of thought/ego!
'Beliefs' are, thus, caught and spread, NOT logically, rationally 'chosen'.

Because 'beliefs' are ego/thought, "conditional", they must constantly be defended and validated and spread!

'Faith', on the other hand, is an unconditional Virtue of unconditional Love!

Unconditional Love is Known by it's Virtues; Compassion, Gratitude, Humility, Empathy, Sympathy, FAITH, Happiness, Charity, Honesty...!
Always!

Faith is not 'dependent' on any limitations, makes no distinctions, is 'unconditional'!
Love/Faith is completely transcendent; never needs defense, never needs validation, never needs spreading!
'Faith' is Knowledge! Knowledge is unconditional, what we experience Here! Now!

Not that We 'believe';
That We Love!!

tat tvam asi

-- Updated November 27th, 2017, 2:21 pm to add the following --
Ozymandias wrote:Is faith a good way to believe?
Faith vs Beliefs

A 'belief' is a pathologically symptomatic infection of thought/ego!
'Beliefs' are, thus, caught and spread, NOT logically, rationally 'chosen'.

Because 'beliefs' are ego/thought, "conditional", they must constantly be defended and validated and spread!

'Faith', on the other hand, is an unconditional Virtue of unconditional Love!

Unconditional Love is Known by it's Virtues; Compassion, Gratitude, Humility, Empathy, Sympathy, FAITH, Happiness, Charity, Honesty...!
Always!

Faith is not 'dependent' on any limitations, makes no distinctions, is 'unconditional'!
Love/Faith is completely transcendent; never needs defense, never needs validation, never needs spreading!
'Faith' is Knowledge! Knowledge is unconditional, what we experience Here! Now!

Not that We 'believe';
That We Love!!

tat tvam asi

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Scribbler60
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Scribbler60 » November 27th, 2017, 2:51 pm

13 pages and nearly 200 responses. Haven't been through them all.

No, faith is not a good way (or reason) to believe unless that faith has an empirical basis.

I may have faith that the brakes on my motorcycle work, but that faith is predicated upon the knowledge that I maintain the brakes on a regular basis and, through regular use and testing, I know that they work.

I have faith in my physician because he has shown himself, though his own education and testing, as well as my own personal experience, that he is trustworthy.

I have faith that milady stays true to me because she has been trustworthy in the past and I see no reason why she should not be trustworthy in the future.

All these faiths are grounded in objective truths; reality that can be seen to be accurate by disinterested outside observers.

Religious faith, however, is predicated on things unknown or unknowable and, as such, has no grounding in reality, therefore is not rational.

Belindi
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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Belindi » November 28th, 2017, 4:46 am

Scribbler60 wrote:13 pages and nearly 200 responses. Haven't been through them all.

No, faith is not a good way (or reason) to believe unless that faith has an empirical basis.

I may have faith that the brakes on my motorcycle work, but that faith is predicated upon the knowledge that I maintain the brakes on a regular basis and, through regular use and testing, I know that they work.

I have faith in my physician because he has shown himself, though his own education and testing, as well as my own personal experience, that he is trustworthy.

I have faith that milady stays true to me because she has been trustworthy in the past and I see no reason why she should not be trustworthy in the future.

All these faiths are grounded in objective truths; reality that can be seen to be accurate by disinterested outside observers.

Religious faith, however, is predicated on things unknown or unknowable and, as such, has no grounding in reality, therefore is not rational.
Faith in your bike, your doctor, or your wife is trust-faith. You have empirical reasons to trust those. Faith in good, truth, and beauty is necessary to maintenance of your life to the extent that if you totally lose faith your psyche will shut down and you will die. Religious faith , if it includes worship of good, truth, and beauty at all, is adulterated with credal beliefs many of which are superstitious, with which the priesthood indoctrinates religious people.

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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by 3uGH7D4MLj » December 18th, 2017, 7:18 am

Ozymandias wrote:
February 24th, 2017, 5:53 pm
But based on my understanding I would like to say that faith is a pointless endeavor. Faith is a benchwarmer for reason. It's great when you have not the time or energy to find actual explanations for hard theological questions, but by taking the time to work out the hard questions, you gain a better understanding of spirituality.
I appreciate the topic, as I have had some personal experience, good to get it clear.

I guess I disagree here, I think faith is the way. Figuring out belief logically is not going to get you there. You're dealing with mythology, the passion of Christ, the Akeda, crossing of the Red Sea, wandering in the wilderness led by a pillar of flame. I'm not saying you should become some wildeyed barefoot holy man, but to get the benefit, there has to be some feeling, rapture, some ecstasy in your worship. Reason isn't as important.

It will take time for your devotion to develop, but eventually you want to be there on Good Friday kissing the cross with tears streaming down your face.
fair to say

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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by 3uGH7D4MLj » December 30th, 2017, 6:52 am

I picture Kierkegaard's Leap of Faith, which he said required absurdity, if I'm reading him right.

So: Is it possible to have a rational materialist worldview, sans God, and still give yourself over to the love of Jesus (or whatever), and let the mythology have its way with you? To have the full passionate belief and faith that the myth requires.

The Christ story is the perfect myth to support a transcendent radical ethics faith a la Simone Weil. But can a rational person full-heartedly give themselves over to a carnal and passionate faith? (we're talking about human sacrifice)
fair to say

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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Belindi » December 30th, 2017, 7:35 am

3uGH7D4MLj wrote:
December 30th, 2017, 6:52 am
I picture Kierkegaard's Leap of Faith, which he said required absurdity, if I'm reading him right.

So: Is it possible to have a rational materialist worldview, sans God, and still give yourself over to the love of Jesus (or whatever), and let the mythology have its way with you? To have the full passionate belief and faith that the myth requires.

The Christ story is the perfect myth to support a transcendent radical ethics faith a la Simone Weil. But can a rational person full-heartedly give themselves over to a carnal and passionate faith? (we're talking about human sacrifice)

If I had the full and passionate belief which the myth requires it would either be because I needed solace, or because the myth would be all that was left to inspire me to keep going. Pragmatic reasons for allowing my emotions to steer my beliefs.

Transcendent radical ethics requires a myth more suited to modern people. I'd like to see that happening. The old myth of Christ , although it can be interpreted as an allegory, is not the genre of story that can be popularised, largely because of the insistence of religious people that the history is the same as the myth.

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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by 3uGH7D4MLj » January 9th, 2018, 9:45 pm

Belindi wrote:
December 30th, 2017, 7:35 am
If I had the full and passionate belief which the myth requires it would either be because I needed solace, or because the myth would be all that was left to inspire me to keep going. Pragmatic reasons for allowing my emotions to steer my beliefs.

Transcendent radical ethics requires a myth more suited to modern people. I'd like to see that happening. The old myth of Christ , although it can be interpreted as an allegory, is not the genre of story that can be popularised, largely because of the insistence of religious people that the history is the same as the myth.
That's the problem, and truth is such a petty requirement to put on myth, full of archetypes and symbolism, ambiguity and beauty. Isn't myth bigger than truth? It's a kind of super truth, not merely truth in a journalistic sense.

Is it possible for a person with a materialist worldview, say, a scientist, to be a devoted follower of the myth of Jesus, or any other spiritual path? Can you imagine having such a change in outlook? There are people who do just this, in spite of the problems that you cite. I think that mythology was always intended to have this kind of role, but we've lost the knack of seeing myth's function and power. mmm?
fair to say

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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Belindi » January 10th, 2018, 5:56 am

If those legions of American plebs who voted for the Trump presidency were able to understand "myth's function and power" they would have taken a more rational line of thought when they voted at the election.

I don't know about scientists and other very brainy people but I myself do subscribe to the myth of Christ in an extremely allegorical sense which does not depend in any way upon historical veracity.

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Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by 3uGH7D4MLj » January 10th, 2018, 8:46 am

Belindi wrote:
January 10th, 2018, 5:56 am
If those legions of American plebs who voted for the Trump presidency were able to understand "myth's function and power" they would have taken a more rational line of thought when they voted at the election.

I don't know about scientists and other very brainy people but I myself do subscribe to the myth of Christ in an extremely allegorical sense which does not depend in any way upon historical veracity.
I'm disappointed that you choose not to address my questions, but no problem.
fair to say

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