Either way you sell your soul
- Whitedragon
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Either way you sell your soul
If you are an atheist you might be better off, but you still chose to remain neutral, there might be a god, so you sell your soul to a different kind of uncertainty. It seems we have a catch twenty-two situation. No matter what we do we gamble with our souls, if we have one.
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Re: Either way you sell your soul
How do you mean? Is there true faith and false faith, the former based on awareness of Self/God/Spirit (however tenuous) and the latter based solely on mental belief?They say faith alone saves you, but the Bible clearly states faith alone will not save you.
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Re: Either way you sell your soul
We all have souls, it depends what your definition of a soul is. If your definition of soul is something abstract and phantom alone, you might dismiss it easily, but if it goes beyond a mere spectre into the material realm of memory and character; how we devote our minds to belief becomes something much more pertinent.Felix wrote:Can you sell what you don't have? That is, if you've never found your soul, would you miss it if it was sold?
How do you mean? Is there true faith and false faith, the former based on awareness of Self/God/Spirit (however tenuous) and the latter based solely on mental belief?They say faith alone saves you, but the Bible clearly states faith alone will not save you.
Faith alone does not save. By that the Bible means, how we act and our moral and ethical code, which again brings us to a more material concept than mere spectres floating about. One could say, your soul is the words inside --- a story. This is who we are, so we may have all the faith in the universe, but if our deeds tell a different story, the Bible clearly state faith alone is not enough; thus we sell our soul either way to the whims of those, apparently ruling over us, as far as religion is concerned.
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Re: Either way you sell your soul
You are basically describing Pascal's wager which some people I have met find profound and worrying and important and worth thinking about and other people (me included) find to be banal, pointless and not worth worrying about.
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Re: Either way you sell your soul
That depends on what your definition of a soul is, if nothing else it is your mind and how you chose to fill it. Moreover, belonging to any conviction, even atheism, ties you to a certain mode of thinking, thus you belong to a group of people, who may share your ideas. Thus, you have sold your soul/mind and devoted yourself to an entire lifestyle and way of thinking. Do your thoughts really belong to you, or is it someone else’s dream? Hence, you have picked a side and your mind/soul belongs to that group. It will necessarily reflect on your life. It will also reflect on how you interact with other peopleEduk wrote:Atheists do not believe in the religious definition of souls. It is not something that can be sold in the manner you are describing.
You are basically describing Pascal's wager which some people I have met find profound and worrying and important and worth thinking about and other people (me included) find to be banal, pointless and not worth worrying about.
No matter what we do, it seems we do not belong to ourselves, no matter how grand the promises are of the choice you make, there is always a catch and again, you are living someone else dream, hence you do not belong to yourself. If you get more religious about it, the god you worship, you sell your soul to, but whether religious or none religious, your mind is not your own. No one is picking sides here of saying this creed is better, the word, soul could be seen here as your ego, your persona and how much of that is really yours?
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Re: Either way you sell your soul
Atheism does not group me, or to be more pedantic groups me the least amount possible. Atheism makes one claim and even that claim is a negative one. Compared with anything else it is the least amount of conviction you can have. It also has the least effect on how I interact with others.
I would not be so melodramatic as you though, we might not be islands with 100% freedom of thought but we have a degree of freedom, exactly what that degree is I am unsure.
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Re: Either way you sell your soul
I don't define faith as belief in a mental concept or idea, but as knowledge, so in the context you're using, it would be spiritual knowledge. If I have this knowledge, I will live and act ethically and harmoniously, and if I lack it, I will not.Whitedragon: Faith alone does not save. By that the Bible means, how we act and our moral and ethical code, which again brings us to a more material concept than mere spectres floating about.
And what is your definition? You said one can sell their soul but you never said what it is that one would be selling.Whitedragon: That depends on what your definition of a soul is
Yes well, those who don't have the courage to be are left with worship.If you get more religious about it, the god you worship, you sell your soul to,
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Re: Either way you sell your soul
There is a definition for the soul in this thread, it simply is the collection of our memories. It is our mind, our character, and certainly our preferred conviction has an impact on that. The argument here is, that what ever you devote yourself to occupies your mind and determines your behavior in the world and towards others. If a soul is just energy or some phantom, I think it is useless, but when it is everything we are and what we think, that sounds more like a fair definition of a soul. In light of this, we DO sell our soul, because what ever belief we take as our own, religious or not, it is based on someone else's dream or ideas - and there always seems to be a catch.And what is your definition? You said one can sell their soul but you never said what it is that one would be selling.
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Re: Either way you sell your soul
I see your purview, but if we're talking about an “eternal soul” an actual entity, the type that religion purports exists, then I don't think that religion (let's say Christianity) asks that we sell our soul. Rather, that we behave in a manner which will protect our souls and that we have faith in the goodness of God. Selling one's soul to the Devil, as I understand it, involves the trade of one's soul for wealth and/or whatever one desires, at the cost of the soul's eternal damnation. There seems to me to be a clear a difference between the two practices. I see your point about how dedicating one's life and energy to a religion (or atheism) can seem as though one is giving their “soul” to that ideology, but I think that you're perhaps conflating the secular and religious concepts of the soul, a bit of semantics if you will.
The term “soul” can be taken and understood in different ways including the ways you've used it, but if we're using the term in the religious or spiritual sense then it has a very specific meaning and context. As such, I think that as far as religion is concerned, the soul is an actual part of us that exists along with our physical bodies; not an abstraction used to identify things such as character, personality and other aspects of personage, but I could be wrong. I don't think that having a belief constitutes a “selling of the soul” even if belief consumes the entire person's mind, we cannot say for certain that they've “sold their soul,” as that act seems to require an actual conscious will to do so and acknowledgement. Regardless, we can only speculate about such things as the soul, so I don't think we can acquire any knowledge here, but perhaps there'll be some interesting opinions as discussion continues.
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Re: Either way you sell your soul
That is an odd definition of soul, it doesn't conform to any religious conception I know of. Guess there's no point in looking for the cause of Alzheimers anymore, we can just chalk it off as "soul loss."Whitedragon: There is a definition for the soul in this thread, it simply is the collection of our memories.
As Fanman said, the religious conception of soul is that it is an eternal spark of the Divine Essence. In yoga, it is considered to be an evolutionary vehicle.
From Sri Aurobindo: "The soul, representative of the central being, is a spark of the Divine supporting all individual existence in Nature; the psychic being is a conscious form of that soul growing in the evolution — in the persistent process that develops first life in matter, mind in life, until finally mind can develop into overmind and overmind into the supramental Truth. The soul supports the nature in its
evolution through these grades, but is itself not any of these things."
And how will having a better definition help you if you are not aware of "everything you are"?Whitedragon: If a soul is just energy or some phantom, I think it is useless, but when it is everything we are and what we think, that sounds more like a fair definition of a soul.
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Re: Either way you sell your soul
Actually, the author of the book "The Friendly Atheist" sold his own soul several times over on eBay to the highest bidder. This a fact (which I have heard of, not witnessed.)Eduk wrote:Atheists do not believe in the religious definition of souls. It is not something that can be sold in the manner you are describing.
You are basically describing Pascal's wager which some people I have met find profound and worrying and important and worth thinking about and other people (me included) find to be banal, pointless and not worth worrying about.
-- Updated 2017 April 1st, 2:50 am to add the following --
The author of the opening thread describes a variation on Pascal's wager, not the wager itself.Eduk wrote: You are basically describing Pascal's wager which some people I have met find profound and worrying and important and worth thinking about and other people (me included) find to be banal, pointless and not worth worrying about.
The author puts his or her own spin on it, which I find clever, true, and smart.
In fact, having a soul (which atheists also do, but which we think dies with our bodies -- some of us think that, anyhow), in any way or form, is a sure-fire gamble into the unknown of the afterlife.
The author of the original post of this thread expressed that well, I must say, and I agree with him or her.
The worst part is we can't quit the game. Whether the gamble's cause or origination was created by us (pre-life contract by our soul to enter life without knowing the outcome during the life period) or else it had been cast upon us by some creator.
This is not necessarily a bad gamble, but its outcome is incredibly unknown to us. Sometimes I wish for death to come, to finally get the Afterlife revealed to me -- sheer curiosity, nothing more.
Unfortunately you can't get a taste of the afterlife and continue on living after that. And even if you did, or could, it would be of no use-- you can't quit the game, you can't give up your own soul, as it were.
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Re: Either way you sell your soul
Fanman wrote:Hi Whitedragon,
I see your purview, but if we're talking about an “eternal soul” an actual entity, the type that religion purports exists, then I don't think that religion (let's say Christianity) asks that we sell our soul. Rather, that we behave in a manner which will protect our souls and that we have faith in the goodness of God. Selling one's soul to the Devil, as I understand it, involves the trade of one's soul for wealth and/or whatever one desires, at the cost of the soul's eternal damnation. There seems to me to be a clear a difference between the two practices. I see your point about how dedicating one's life and energy to a religion (or atheism) can seem as though one is giving their “soul” to that ideology, but I think that you're perhaps conflating the secular and religious concepts of the soul, a bit of semantics if you will.
The term “soul” can be taken and understood in different ways including the ways you've used it, but if we're using the term in the religious or spiritual sense then it has a very specific meaning and context. As such, I think that as far as religion is concerned, the soul is an actual part of us that exists along with our physical bodies; not an abstraction used to identify things such as character, personality and other aspects of personage, but I could be wrong. I don't think that having a belief constitutes a “selling of the soul” even if belief consumes the entire person's mind, we cannot say for certain that they've “sold their soul,” as that act seems to require an actual conscious will to do so and acknowledgement. Regardless, we can only speculate about such things as the soul, so I don't think we can acquire any knowledge here, but perhaps there'll be some interesting opinions as discussion continues.
Thank you for the post, Fanman,
The soul, (from a religious point of few), must consist of many parts, but if not our mind and character, it seems pretty useless, since our soul is what apparently lives on after we die. You also mention the act of selling your soul is often for the purpose of wealth, but do religious people not expect the same thing when converting? They expect God to hold to his porpoises of protection and wealth and they pray for these things daily. Atheists and some Satanists also live by a code, which ensures their health and happiness, as they often remind us, just because they chose those lifestyles does not mean they are lawless.
If the soul is just some skin we carry around with us, what happens if we die, a skin without personality floating about? It does seem the soul holds the most important part of us, our mind, our memories, etc. Thus, by living any faith, we assimilate those teachings into our soul for the benefits that creed promises us, it does seem a lot like selling, especially considering one will be "downloading" all that knowledge and belief into your mind/soul. From a religious point of few, that God will also be inside you then, since the Bible says God is the Word, it is not such a far stretch to say the more you learn, the more that God possesses you.
People do a lot of things in the name of religion that are not right, simply because that faith is inside them, in their soul. It does seem you sell your soul, then.
-- Updated April 1st, 2017, 3:04 am to add the following --
Felix wrote:That is an odd definition of soul, it doesn't conform to any religious conception I know of. Guess there's no point in looking for the cause of Alzheimers anymore, we can just chalk it off as "soul loss."Whitedragon: There is a definition for the soul in this thread, it simply is the collection of our memories.
As Fanman said, the religious conception of soul is that it is an eternal spark of the Divine Essence. In yoga, it is considered to be an evolutionary vehicle.
From Sri Aurobindo: "The soul, representative of the central being, is a spark of the Divine supporting all individual existence in Nature; the psychic being is a conscious form of that soul growing in the evolution — in the persistent process that develops first life in matter, mind in life, until finally mind can develop into overmind and overmind into the supramental Truth. The soul supports the nature in its
evolution through these grades, but is itself not any of these things."
And how will having a better definition help you if you are not aware of "everything you are"?Whitedragon: If a soul is just energy or some phantom, I think it is useless, but when it is everything we are and what we think, that sounds more like a fair definition of a soul.
Soul is not just energy, but it is also energy. Memory could go beyond just what we experience in the brain itself, science has expressed enough doubt about thoughts and memory in the past to justify this. A central being seems pretty useless if it has no memories or mind of its "hosts" if you will. Religiously, how will a soul be judged if it has no memory of its previous life?!
-- Updated April 1st, 2017, 3:13 am to add the following --
Hi, - 1 -,
Thank you for your post! However if you do want a taste of afterlife, try some DMT, lol. But seriously, they say it has profound effects on the spiritual aspect of some, even atheists, want to try it myself some day. Not that it is the real thing, but hey, it is as good as it gets, right?
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Re: Either way you sell your soul
This makes what you're saying much clearer. I think that from a religious point of view our soul is us, that is, it is the "ethereal version" of us that survives death. It must be fully and wholly us, as from a religious perspective there are things that happen to us after we die, one of which being that we're held accountable for our actions. To be so would require that we're “fully there,” so in that respect the soul must contain our thoughts and memories... Some years ago I became interested in astral projection, and I had an experience whereby I seemingly projected myself outside of my physical body, and stood over my physical body watching myself sleep. I could see the whole room I was in and it was a seemingly the same room I was sleeping in, the only difference was that my vision seemed a little “watery.” I think the experience was some type of hallucination, but it seemed pretty real, as though what was happening was actually happening. I have read that other people have experienced similar experiences and taken them much further than I did, but I was scared by the whole experience and jumped back into my body very quickly. My point being, that there's anecdotal evidence for the soul (an ethereal version of us), such as my experience, but I don't think that is enough to confidently believe in the existence of the soul by way of knowledge rather than by faith. If it was discovered that human-beings have a soul as a matter of fact, through science. It would completely change the landscape of humanity and human behaviour.The soul, (from a religious point of few), must consist of many parts, but if not our mind and character, it seems pretty useless, since our soul is what apparently lives on after we die. You also mention the act of selling your soul is often for the purpose of wealth, but do religious people not expect the same thing when converting? They expect God to hold to his porpoises of protection and wealth and they pray for these things daily. Atheists and some Satanists also live by a code, which ensures their health and happiness, as they often remind us, just because they chose those lifestyles does not mean they are lawless.
Back to what you say, I think that religious people certainly expect “good things” when they convert, but God doesn't seem to make the same promises as the Devil, and also seemingly expects different behaviour. As far as I'm aware, God doesn't "charge a price" to bless those who believe in him, (unless you consider belief/faith to be a price) and I don't think that those who believe in God expect to be wealthy. They rather hope that they can have those things, and they're prayers and asking is fuelled by hope, rather than expectation. Satanist's likely expect health and wealth, because they've actually traded something and made a deal for those things. I don't think that they're lawless, but I would expect that Satanists are willing and may have to do some things or something which could be considered as “evil” or against God, if only because that is the nature and modus operendi of their spiritual leader. Perhaps the selling of the soul could be considered such an act? I do see your point, that as one gives their all to a belief it can seem (and be said) as though one is “giving one's soul” to it, but I think there's a epistemological and motivational difference between giving oneself to a religion and selling one's soul, but I could of course be mistaken. Both are done with a view to improvement, but the reasons and consequences for doing so are purportedly different.
Very good, well said. I just disagree that one is selling their soul in living by faith, as there's a difference between honestly giving oneself to a religion in the interest of “honourable maxims” and knowledgeably selling one's soul for personal gain. Seeking personal gain (of any sort) is a core feature of human nature and I think that one expects gain if taking on a religion, but as I said previously, the difference between the two may be hope and expectation.If the soul is just some skin we carry around with us, what happens if we die, a skin without personality floating about? It does seem the soul holds the most important part of us, our mind, our memories, etc. Thus, by living any faith, we assimilate those teachings into our soul for the benefits that creed promises us, it does seem a lot like selling, especially considering one will be "downloading" all that knowledge and belief into your mind/soul. From a religious point of few, that God will also be inside you then, since the Bible says God is the Word, it is not such a far stretch to say the more you learn, the more that God possesses you.
It can seem that way yes, but I don't think it is. I think that whilst indoctrinated by a religion, a person who does things that aren't right in the name of religion does those things because they believe they're serving their God. They don't sell their soul, rather they give it for free, or willingly to their beliefs. I think they expect a reward, but the religious seem to believe that their true reward is in the after-life, whilst expecting a decent life on earth. I think that those who sell their soul, expect recompense rather than reward. There's an innocence in living by faith, that the selling of the soul doesn't have. People will openly admit to believing in God or living by faith, but I've never heard anyone admit that they've sold their soul (for personal gain), but I'm waiting on Mr Trump...People do a lot of things in the name of religion that are not right, simply because that faith is inside them, in their soul. It does seem you sell your soul, then.
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Re: Either way you sell your soul
I gave you only a small snippet of Yoga philosophy, obviously I can't write an entire treatise on it here. The following passages from Letters on Yoga, Vol. 1 by Sri Aurobindo may provide more clarity. At any rate, it is clear to me you are speculating about selling something of which you have only a vague notion - it has to be more than just a mental belief to effect any significant change in consciousness.A central being seems pretty useless if it has no memories or mind of its "hosts" if you will. Religiously, how will a soul be judged if it has no memory of its previous life?!
The individual Self is usually described as a portion of the Transcendent and cosmic Self — in the higher and subtler ranges of the consciousness it knows itself as that, but in the lower where the consciousness is more and more clouded it identifies itself with surface forms of personality, creations of Prakriti, and becomes unaware of its divine origin. Self, when one becomes aware of it, is felt as something self-existent and eternal which is not identified with forms of mental, vital and physical personality, these are only small expressions of its potentialities in Nature. What people call themselves now is only the ego or the mind or the life-force or the body, but that is because they think in the terms of the formations of Prakriti and do not see behind them.
You must avoid a common popular blunder about reincarnation. The popular idea is that Titus Balbus is reborn again as John Smith, a man with the same personality, character, attainments as he had in his former life with th e sole difference that he wears coat and trousers instead of a toga and speaks in cockney English instead of popular Latin. That is not the case. What would be the earthly use of repeating the same personality or character a million times from the beginning of time till its end!
The soul comes into birth for experience, for growth, for evolution till it can bring the Divine into matter. It is the central being that incarnates, not the outer personality — the personality is simply a mould that it creates for its figures of experience in that one life.
In another birth it will create for itself a different personality, different capacities, a different life and career. Supposing Virgil is born again, he may take up poetry in one or two other lives, but he will certainly not write an epic but rather perhaps slight but elegant and beautiful lyrics such as he wanted to write, but did not succeed, in Rome. In another birth he is likely to be no poet at all, but a philosopher and a Yogin seeking to attain and to express the highest truth — for that too was an unrealised trend of his consciousness in that life. Perhaps before he had been a warrior or ruler doing deeds like Aeneas or Augustus before he sang them. And so on — on this side or that the central being develops a new character, a new personality, grows, develops, passes through all kinds of terrestrial experience.
As the evolving being develops still more and becomes more rich and complex, it accumulates its personalities, as it were. Sometimes they stand behind the active elements, throwing in some colour, some trait, some capacity here and there — or they stand in front and there is a multiple personality, a many-sided character or a many-sided, sometimes what looks like a universal capacity.
But if a former personality, a former capacity is brought fully forward, it will not be to repeat what was already done, but to cast the same capacity into new forms and new shapes and fuse it into a new harmony of the being which will not be a reproduction of what it was before. Thus you must not expect to be what the warrior and the poet were — something of the outer characteristics may reappear but very much changed and new-cast in a new combination. It is in a new direction that the energies will be guided to do what was not done before.
Another thing. It is not the personality, the character that is of the first importance in rebirth — it is the psychic being who stands behind the evolution of the nature and evolves with it. The psychic when it departs from the body, shedding even the mental and vital on its way to its resting place, carries with it the heart of its experiences — not the physical events, not the vital movements, not the mental buildings, not the capacities or characters, but something essential that it gathered from them, what might be called the divine element for the sake of which the rest existed. That is the permanent addition, it is that that helps in the growth towards the Divine. That is why there is usually no memory of the outward events and circumstances of past lives — for this memory there must be a strong development towards unbroken continuance of the mind, the vital, even the subtle physical; for though it all remains in a kind of seed memory, it does not ordinarily emerge.
What was the divine element in the magnanimity of the warrior, that which expressed itself in his loyalty, nobility, high courage, what was the divine element behind the harmonious mentality and generous vitality of the poet and expressed itself in them, that remains and in a new harmony of character may find a new expression or, if the life is turned towards the Divine, be taken up as powers for the realisation or for the work that has to be done for the Divine.
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Re: Either way you sell your soul
DeMentia Tremens... must try it. Oh, the joy, I can hardly wait.Whitedragon wrote: if you do want a taste of afterlife, try some DMT, lol.
They also say that it has profound effects on you if you starve and dehydrate yourself in the desert or in a jungle for weeks at end. This is not make-belief or a joke. People do get tremendous spiritual experiences in severe gastroeconomic conditions.
Same goes if you flagellate yourself severely until the blood comes out in your back, after each successful sexual experience that culminates in a fully-blown o.
I've heard that blinding yourself by ripping your eyes out with your own fingers do the job, but it's not an easy task. Asking someone else to do it for you won't do the trick. You have to do it yourself. Try it, it may work. I am not guaranteeing it, but do let us know how it worked for you.
Some monks told me, that after they committed their life to forever complete silence, within forty years they started to hear the angels sing. Their song sounded very similar to "Purple Rain" by Prince.
I believe that if you gorge yourself with food, and drink plenty of fluids during exercising, and you do mental calisthenics in moderation, then you don't get these experiences.
For the time being I'm with the calisthenics thing. And I'm pretty sure I'm going to be sticking with it.
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