Either way you sell your soul

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Dissimulation
Posts: 37
Joined: March 23rd, 2017, 12:38 pm

Re: Either way you sell your soul

Post by Dissimulation »

A non-believer is not confined to neutrality in a system or belief understood as false or invalid. Most religions that include the sin or eternal damnation are addressed with 'original sin/guilt/defect and belief/repentance alone is enough to salvage the innately flawed condition. Eastern traditions warn of reincarnation and movement away from nirvana. Harry potter deals with sin....wrong fairy tail.
User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 1100
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Re: Either way you sell your soul

Post by Whitedragon »

Fellix, the focus of this thread is not the afterlife or the paths of the soul, but the immediate ramifications for the soul/mind here and now. The choices that we make here and now and the paths we chose to follow is the main focus, not the hereafter or the next life. Let us not get stuck on the journey of the soul to the afterlife or through various lifetimes. Note soul and mind are interchangeable in the parameters of this thread, let us focus on the mind part of soul, else we defeat the topic of discussion by yet again getting off track as it goes with so many threads.
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Either way you sell your soul

Post by Felix »

Whitedragon, You stated in your initial post that we all must "sell our soul." I disagreed with both your definition of soul (that it is equivalent to mind) and with your conclusion that "either way we sell our soul."

I said you cannot sell something that you do not own, i.e., if you do not own your own mind, if you do not understand yourself and your abilities, motivations and inclinations, you have no soul to sell. (And furthermore, if you do own your own soul, you will be unwilling to sell it at any price.) What else is there to say?
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 1100
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Re: Either way you sell your soul

Post by Whitedragon »

Felix wrote:Whitedragon, You stated in your initial post that we all must "sell our soul." I disagreed with both your definition of soul (that it is equivalent to mind) and with your conclusion that "either way we sell our soul."

I said you cannot sell something that you do not own, i.e., if you do not own your own mind, if you do not understand yourself and your abilities, motivations and inclinations, you have no soul to sell. (And furthermore, if you do own your own soul, you will be unwilling to sell it at any price.) What else is there to say?
How do we not own your own mind? We chose what we put in there and what we keep out and that is the rub. If we do not own our minds then who does? There is much to say. We can take an example from this very thread between the bloggers: you choose to keep out what the thread presents and the initiator chooses to stand against what you are saying, that sounds exactly like the owning of the mind. You have set your mind to exclude the claims in this thread, how now?
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Either way you sell your soul

Post by Felix »

How do we not own your own mind?
By avoiding critical thought, harboring vain speculations and beliefs not authenticated by personal experience, etc. But as I said, I don't consider mental apparatus equivalent to soul.
We chose what we put in there and what we keep out and that is the rub.
Many people do not. If you ask them why they believe in ____ (fill in the blank), they can't give you a sensible answer.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Either way you sell your soul

Post by Eduk »

I agree with Felix. We don't have 100% total control or knowledge even of our minds, it's just not that nice, neat and simple.
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 1100
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Re: Either way you sell your soul

Post by Whitedragon »

Felix wrote:
How do we not own your own mind?
By avoiding critical thought, harboring vain speculations and beliefs not authenticated by personal experience, etc. But as I said, I don't consider mental apparatus equivalent to soul.
We chose what we put in there and what we keep out and that is the rub.
Many people do not. If you ask them why they believe in ____ (fill in the blank), they can't give you a sensible answer.
The whole point is to shape your own mind and be unique. Philosophy is speculation, otherwise it would be a cold and clinical science. We are all here mostly speculating on numerous things, shall we give up philosophy then? Personal experience is key in this thread, probably by all. As stated mental apparatus is not equivalent to soul, but part of soul ... an important part, if not the pith of a soul.

"Many people do not?" That should be some people do not, many people can tell you exactly why they believe, those who cannot are obviously not serious about it and could not care.

There is a thread on this forum speaking of mental death. Obviously when you lose your memory your soul does not die, but your body loses the ability to recall its memories; but what would be the point of a soul that does not retain its memories? You make it sound like we are mere hosts of the soul, acting much like a parasite, shedding all memory as the host dies and also all accountability. This is how it stands, mind is NOT equivalent of soul, but a part of soul. For those who do not believe in any afterlife, what other soul can we have, but our mind?!
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Either way you sell your soul

Post by Eduk »

Obviously when you lose your memory your soul does not die
For those who do not believe in any afterlife, what other soul can we have, but our mind?!
But under this definition then your soul does die with your mind?
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 1100
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Re: Either way you sell your soul

Post by Whitedragon »

Eduk wrote:
Obviously when you lose your memory your soul does not die
For those who do not believe in any afterlife, what other soul can we have, but our mind?!
But under this definition then your soul does die with your mind?
Yes, under that definition, if it is one's definition. But does this not demand we take more care with the mind?
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Either way you sell your soul

Post by Eduk »

Is there anyone who is arguing against taking care of their mind?
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 1100
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Re: Either way you sell your soul

Post by Whitedragon »

Eduk wrote:Is there anyone who is arguing against taking care of their mind?
Do we take care of the mind, or do we lend its ears to others? How unique are we, we base so much of what we believe on hearsay. Custom, tradition, religion ... none religion and politics are any of those thoughts really our own? How much of what we accept into our lives is not our own? Hence, we sell our soul to any one whose theories and promises we fancy. Sure some of these meet our fancy, but how much of the junk do we have to add on to ourselves that does NOT agree with us? How unique are we?
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Either way you sell your soul

Post by Felix »

what would be the point of a soul that does not retain its memories?
I never said anything about a soul not retaining memories, just that such memories would have a completely different quality. I mean, how much can you remember of your present lifetime, say of your life between birth and your first birthday?
For those who do not believe in any afterlife, what other soul can we have, but our mind?!
You really seem to be talking not about selling one's soul but about not trying to find it. Conscious awareness is only the tip of the iceberg of our consciousness, you have the subconscious/unconscious beneath the surface of your awareness, and perhaps the superconscious or collective unconscious beyond it. The personal ego/id is only a small fraction of that total mind-space. Which part and how much of that total mind-space is your mind?
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 1100
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Re: Either way you sell your soul

Post by Whitedragon »

Felix said,
You really seem to be talking not about selling one's soul but about not trying to find it. Conscious awareness is only the tip of the iceberg of our consciousness, you have the subconscious/unconscious beneath the surface of your awareness, and perhaps the superconscious or collective unconscious beyond it. The personal ego/id is only a small fraction of that total mind-space. Which part and how much of that total mind-space is your mind?
That is a good question, Felix, and a very good contribution to the thread, thank you. The question remains though, whose subconscious is that; how does the conscious react with the unconscious or collective unconscious? If there is a certain network in the collective unconscious that is bad, and if it can be affected by being responsible in the conscious, does that not strengthen the argument of the thread? Thus, the responsibility no longer just lies with us but with a community of minds.
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
User avatar
-1-
Posts: 878
Joined: December 1st, 2016, 2:23 am

Re: Either way you sell your soul

Post by -1- »

Felix, I have one serious criticism of your point.

Your point, as I understand it, is that a person does not own his or her own mind, because he or she is not familiar with it; has no total or sufficient knowledge of it. Therefore one can't sell one's own mind.

I oppose that view. You can own things without knowing them. How many people do you know with TVs who don't know the concept or the working of the TV set they own? How many cell phone users own their phone which they are free to sell at any point if they decide to? How many people own their own clothes without knowing the chemical composition or the temperature of their clothes, yet they can sell it? How many people do you know who can fix a flat tire (not just change the wheel), change their own oil, and rebuild the engine in their own cars? ETC.

You don't need to "own" you ownings to own them. Possession is not equivalent to knowledge of the possession. And you can sell your possession.

The only way one can say they don't own their own souls is to say God owns the soul of every being. But you can still sell the soul allotted to you by God!! Dr. Faustus sold it, and so have many talented artists, politicians, clergymen, and sports coaches. (Of the latter two, those who keep buggering their twelve-to-fifteen-year-old charges. Without punity.)

-- Updated 2017 April 8th, 7:12 am to add the following --

A present-day example of selling your own mind is the practice of selling the fruits of your intellect even before they are ripened.

Many research and development companies make their employees sign an agreement that forces the employee to give up all rights, including financial rights, to any invention they create from that point on, be the invention work-related or not, at work or away.

The idea is that the company reasons, the employee gets access to a whole bunch of tools that he or she otherwise would not, and they would likely not realize the inventions without those tools, and it's the company that supplies the tools, which include not just equipment, but education and cooperation between employees. The effect, notwithstanding the reasoning, is that the employee sells his or her mind, the fruit of his or her thoughts and creations, her or his very own soul, or at least the creative part of it.

It happens in other areas as well... movie studios have exclusive contract with stars... record companies, with musicians... sports teams with sportsmen/wmn... etc. These men and women who contractually obliged themselves, or "promised" themselves, to a company, have sold their soul.

Come to think of it... "I pledge myself to... Lady Jane... Oh my sweet Marie... you wait at your ease... the servents have died... for you lady and me... Wet nights are mine, my love... your c... is hot, my love... I pledged my self to... Lady Jane." (Jagger-Richards, "Lady Jane", cca 1966.)

IN this sense, if you think that your love / primary sexual characteristics are part of your soul, then you sell your soul, or part of it, for the corresponding part of someone else's soul... in a barter system, when you get married in a culture that supports and requires adherence to monogamy.
This search engine is powered by Hunger, Thirst, and a desperate need to Mate.
User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 1100
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Re: Either way you sell your soul

Post by Whitedragon »

Good post, - 1-,

Indeed we do not have to know something to own or sell it, which is the point of the thread ... do we really know what we are selling when we accept a faith or none faith, why do we compound on it and nurture it without ever questioning it? There is too much power in the education system, especial where children are involved. The more you research into something, say theism, the more you realize its shocking roots - but let us leave that for another discussion. The point is, if adults cling to things they still not understand, how fair is it to expose children to doctrines before they can investigate it for themselves?

By the time they have the ability to question, many do not want to, because it is dear or because it is taboo to do so. They remain in ignorance, therefore, and are in servitude to things they do not understand. Again this can vary from politics to religion, to convictions free of religion or spirituality. Not being able to say no to a belief, threatened with Hell's fire does not just sound like being owned or having sold your soul, but is pure manipulation with the highest levels of slavery. If something is good people will seek it naturally, be it Christianity, Islam, Atheism, Satanism, Hinduism. The moment, however, when we are compelled to join a group, either by religious wrath, or by the loosening from it to atheism, with no clear goal, but driven by frustration or desire, we have sold our soul.

So often on this forum we have talks of freewill/freedom; where is the freedom in being pushed or pulled into any direction and calling it dear, though deep down you are not sure why or if it really IS all it is cracked up to be.
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021