Atheist opinion polls in America

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Dark Matter
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Re: Atheist opinion polls in America

Post by Dark Matter »

Greta wrote: Since the nature of reality is ostensibly the point of issue between theism and secularism, and since knowledge the nature of reality is out of reach, I was suggesting that it's a tad pointless to argue about what is real unless the theist (or whomever) denies obvious science and reason due to adherence to rigid dogma.
Good point. The dichotomy between the observer and the observed, if realized, presupposes and implies a unifying principle that transcends and yet includes both. It is a mystery secularism largely ignores in its encounter with the world and religion takes to heart, usually in the form of fear and superstition.

The strangeness of the situation leaves me bewildered. All of life proceeds on the assumption that the unifying principle is real, but seeking communion with it in silence is the exception rather than the norm.
Eduk
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Re: Atheist opinion polls in America

Post by Eduk »

Which religions imply a unifying principle that transcends and includes both the observer and the observed? I mean explicitly, written down in a way that that is what could be understood from the writing if you weren't looking for it?
also I don't assume your unifying principle is real and I am alive (as far as I am aware).
Unknown means unknown.
Gertie
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Re: Atheist opinion polls in America

Post by Gertie »

Judaka
For people who speak of "truth" as being important, whether it be to interpret their God's will correctly or knowing the objective truth or debating the reality surrounding objective moral order; the "useful truth" being the perspective that provides desired empirical benefits over anything else then what changes practically when we switch that to subjective understanding instead of truth?
I'd say a useful truth is more likely to stand the test of time, isn't it?
Values give shape to our desires, preferences, self-image and they give us dignity, achievement, kinship, status and so on; this is one reason why I think rational beings cannot exist without values, certainly rational thought cannot exist without some order to values that allows us to answer questions like the prison example I gave. Values are necessarily relative in what they give us, not only that some values must be superior to others but that behaviours, characteristics and so on are also superior to others.

Can you clarify by what you mean as superior here? What makes some values superior to others? Those that ''lead to happier and more productive people''? If so, I'd say my term ''quality of life'' means much the same thing.

There's an obvious issue around such Subject-based goals being hard to quantify, to prioritise, as my quality of life might lead me to pursue different priorities to yours, even be incompatible with yours. That doesn't mean we give up trying, I think we need some way of sorting this out at group/society level, and globally, as best we can. While giving people as much freedom as possible to pursue their own happiness. It's a tricky balance, and a lot of politics is about balancing the 'common good' and individual freedom. (Haidt has done some interesting research on this).
Nothing should transcend personal interest; groups, values, politics for which empirical benefit is transcended by something else - that's where the danger starts. Compromises will have to be made as laws/regulations/rules will affect many individuals and I define empirical benefit as including emotional and psychological benefit so when it comes to deciding between e.g closure for victims vs rehabilitation, I think that all we can do is try to address situations so that all parties can have as close to what it is they desire while also trying to solve those problems independently.
This seems like a contradiction? Won't individual interests inevitably have to be compromised? How do you reconcile this, in such an inter-dependent society?

I personally think we need some grounding ideas of Right and Wrong to cohere around as a basis for group living, and history suggests we'll always come up with something. My view is that we choose that something carefully, based on an understanding of how we work, and the sort of society we'd like to live in.
I am curious as to whether you would describe yourself as a nihilist or not as you seem to pretty much fit all of my criteria for being one.

Not really sure. I think there is meaning and value, but it stems from us as conscious Subjects.
Fooloso4
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Re: Atheist opinion polls in America

Post by Fooloso4 »

Dark Matter:
Good point. The dichotomy between the observer and the observed, if realized, presupposes and implies a unifying principle that transcends and yet includes both.
Your presupposition is nothing more than your presupposition. It is without logical or empirical support. It may serve you as a principle but so can any presupposition. It has as much bearing on the nature of reality as the presupposition of object impermanence.

One might think that at least in the case of objects the presupposition can be resolved by evidence, but the following example from Wittgenstein’s lectures on religious belief illustrates the problem of an appeal to evidence.
Suppose I went to somewhere like Lourdes in France. Suppose I went with a very credulous person. There we see blood coming out of something. He says: “There you are, Wittgenstein, how can you doubt?” I‟d say: “Can it only be explained one way? Can‟t it be this or that?” I‟d try to convince him that he‟d seen nothing of any consequence. I wonder whether I would do that under all circumstances. I certainly know that I would under normal circumstances.
I could imagine that someone showed an extremely passionate belief in such a phenomenon, and I couldn‟t approach his belief at all by saying: “This could just as well have been brought about by so and so” because he could think this blasphemy on my side. Or he might say: “It is possible that these priests cheat, but nevertheless in a different sense a miraculous phenomenon takes place there.”
I have a statue which bleeds on such and such a day in the year. I have red ink, etc. “You are a cheat, but nevertheless the Deity uses you. Red ink in a sense, but not red ink in a sense.”
“Oughtn‟t one after all to consider this?” I‟d say: “Come on. Come on.” I would treat the phenomenon in this case just as I would treat an experiment in a laboratory which I thought badly executed.
“The balance moves when I will it to move.” I point out it is not covered up, a draught can move it, etc.
I could imagine that someone showed an extremely passionate belief in such a phenomenon, and I couldn‟t approach his belief at all by saying: “This could just as well have been brought about by so and so” because he could think this blasphemy on my side. Or he might say: “It is possible that these priests cheat, but nevertheless in a different sense a miraculous phenomenon takes place there.”
I have a statue which bleeds on such and such a day in the year. I have red ink, etc. “You are a cheat, but nevertheless the Deity uses you. Red ink in a sense, but not red ink in a sense.”
When one wants or needs to believe something strongly enough then their own convoluted and tortured logic will not be seen for what it is.
All of life proceeds on the assumption that the unifying principle is real …
All of life does not proceed on your questionable assumption that your questionable presupposition of such a unifying principle is real. It is, as Greta said: “adherence to rigid dogma”. I agree with you, it is a good point. Unfortunately, it is one that you ignore.

This relates to Krauss’s point about the difference between scientific and religious faith. Science requires a hypothesis to conform to the evidence, religious forces the evidence to conform to what is believed or ignores the need for evidence in favor a transcendence.
Eduk
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Re: Atheist opinion polls in America

Post by Eduk »

I'm sure that logically I have beliefs which are out of proportion to the evidence that I have. The closest thing I can think of is that maybe it's immoral to eat meat. I'm not convinced it is immoral or that it is moral, but I do eat meat. So you could say I was committing a moral act which I was agnostic about, which is maybe not moral? Maybe I should err on the side of caution.
Unknown means unknown.
Dark Matter
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Re: Atheist opinion polls in America

Post by Dark Matter »

Eduk wrote:Which religions imply a unifying principle that transcends and includes both the observer and the observed?
Just about all of them: Taoism, Hinduism, Christianity, etc.
Eduk
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Re: Atheist opinion polls in America

Post by Eduk »

Which bible passage supports what you are saying?
Unknown means unknown.
Dark Matter
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Re: Atheist opinion polls in America

Post by Dark Matter »

Fanman, if you ever wanted proof, or at least a strong indication that atheism tends to be shallow and superficial, this is it:
Fooloso4 wrote:Dark Matter:
Good point. The dichotomy between the observer and the observed, if realized, presupposes and implies a unifying principle that transcends and yet includes both.
Your presupposition is nothing more than your presupposition....
Really? You're using words, aren't you?
All of life proceeds on the assumption that the unifying principle is real …
All of life does not proceed on your questionable assumption.... /quote]
Science proceeds on the assumption that the universe is comprehensible, doesn't it? Or is it grounded in a bunch of lucky guesses?

-- Updated June 5th, 2017, 4:55 pm to add the following --
Eduk wrote:Which bible passage supports what you are saying?
Acts 17:28, among others.
Eduk
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Re: Atheist opinion polls in America

Post by Eduk »

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
This?
Unknown means unknown.
Dark Matter
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Re: Atheist opinion polls in America

Post by Dark Matter »

Eduk wrote:
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
This?
Yes.
Fooloso4
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Re: Atheist opinion polls in America

Post by Fooloso4 »

DM:
Fanman, if you ever wanted proof, or at least a strong indication that atheism tends to be shallow and superficial, this is it:
Enough with the snide remarks. You have been warned several times about ad hominem attacks. Even if I am wrong, I do not speak for all atheists. Saying that some group of people is shallow and superficial because they do not agree with you in not a philosophical argument and does not give your claims credibility. There seems to be an inverse relationship between the tenuousness of your claims and your reliance on personal attacks.
Really? You're using words, aren't you?
Language does not mean that there is a unifying principle that transcends and unifies observer and observed. In fact, there are spiritual practices that are intended to get past the mediation of language. This is fundamental to Taoism, Zen, and even some Christian practices. It is what the quieting of the mind is all about.
The Way is forever nameless.
Unhewn wood is insignificant, yet no one in the world can master it.
If barons and kings could preserve it, the myriad creatures would all defer to them of their own accord;
Heaven and earth would unite and sweet dew would fall;
And the people would be peaceful and just, though no one so decrees.
When unhewn wood is carved up, then there are names. Now that there are names, know enough to stop! (Daodejing)
Man Up a Tree

"It is like a man up in a tree hanging from a branch with his mouth; his hands grasp no bough, his feet rest on no limb. Someone appears under the tree and asks him, 'What is the meaning of Bodhidharma's coming from the West?' If he does not answer, he fails to respond to the question. If he does answer, he will lose his life. What would you do in such a situation?" (Ch'an Koan)
Christianity … do you know of no examples?
Science proceeds on the assumption that the universe is comprehensible, doesn't it?
Science does not proceed on the assumption that there is a unifying principle that transcends and yet includes both the scientist and the subject matter under investigation. Many scientists acknowledge that the universe may not be any more comprehensible to the human mind than Newtonian physics is to my dog.

Since my dog must be included in “all of life” I just asked her whether she proceeds on the assumption that the unifying principle is real. She would neither confirm nor deny it. The only thing she observes that she has any interest in being unified with is food, but what she normally eats seems to have no interest in any principle that unifies it with her, and in the case of anything that is alive that may become food for her if she can catch it seems to display a marked resistance to unification.
Dark Matter
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Re: Atheist opinion polls in America

Post by Dark Matter »

F4:

Not only do I share many of Wittgenstein's ideas, I also share his temperament. Wittgenstein was known to storm out his classroom when students failed to grasp what he was saying or asked questions about what, to him, was self-evident.

In the same spirit of disgust, I will take leave from you.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Atheist opinion polls in America

Post by Sy Borg »

It's rarely correct to assume that any member of a philosophy forum is shallow. You don't go to philosophy forums because you are content to lead an unexamined life. Yes, some members are clearly crazed, blinkered, depressed and/or obsessive polemicists, but they are not shallow and sometimes quite brilliant.

Whatever, NO ONE knows whether consciousness or matter came first. One's views in this will reflect their thinking style and/or personal leanings, that's all.

DM, I appreciate that you are serious and sincere but your final comment cracked me up - the grand exit with a sting - an appropriately poetic ending to a philosophical argument! You and my Mum would have gotten on like a house on fire :lol:
Dark Matter
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Re: Atheist opinion polls in America

Post by Dark Matter »

Yeah, well, I thought it was appropriate since it was he who brought up Wittgenstein to suggest that a "ground" is not necessary for rational thought.

-- Updated June 5th, 2017, 8:16 pm to add the following --

Funny thing is, I have 9 translations of the Tao Te Ching on my computer, have read many more, and he's quoting it to me? The Tao is the ground he so vehemently denies.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Atheist opinion polls in America

Post by Sy Borg »

Is the Tao the middle ground? I know very little about it but my impression is that it's an atheist philosophy rather than a theistic concept. Or is it perhaps more a matter of labels and "tribal" conceptual affiliations? Isn't acceptance of the Tao ultimately akin to deism?
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