"Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Woodart
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Woodart »

Fan of Science wrote:Philosophy does not address empirical questions

I disagree with this statement. Quite the contrary - philosophy is not an empirical science - it is the science of inquiry. The foundation of all other sciences. Mathematics, arguable the most empirical of all sciences, is still interpreted. I always liked Mark Twain's comment - "There are lies, damn lies and statistics".

People are afraid of death because it is unknown. Some retreat to religion - others not - it's a crap shoot. I notice many old people with worn out bodies - actually want to die - they are tired and ready to see - what is behind door number 3.
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Fan of Science »

Mathematics is the most empirical of all sciences? That's simply not true, as any textbook on discrete mathematics states. Mathematics is not empirical at all. Every object in mathematics is an abstraction. The most fundamental object in mathematics is the set, and a set is an abstraction, a group of objects or elements that can be clearly defined. Let's say we have the set of all US presidents after Abraham Lincoln, up to the present. We can with this rule clearly identify the members of this set. However, we can not observe this "set" in the real world, it simply exists as an abstraction. We can identify the elements of this set as existing, or having existed, in the real world, but the set itself? It exists only in our minds. Mathematics involves the use of logic to abstractions. One can never do any experiment on an abstraction, which is why mathematics is most definitely not an empirical science, much less the most empirical science of all. That has things absolutely backwards.
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Woodart »

Fan of Science wrote:Mathematics is the most empirical of all sciences? That's simply not true, as any textbook on discrete mathematics states. Mathematics is not empirical at all. Every object in mathematics is an abstraction. The most fundamental object in mathematics is the set, and a set is an abstraction, a group of objects or elements that can be clearly defined. Let's say we have the set of all US presidents after Abraham Lincoln, up to the present. We can with this rule clearly identify the members of this set. However, we can not observe this "set" in the real world, it simply exists as an abstraction. We can identify the elements of this set as existing, or having existed, in the real world, but the set itself? It exists only in our minds. Mathematics involves the use of logic to abstractions. One can never do any experiment on an abstraction, which is why mathematics is most definitely not an empirical science, much less the most empirical science of all. That has things absolutely backwards.

I beg to disagree. Here is a definition from the web - "In scientific use the term empirical refers to the gathering of data using only evidence that is observable by the senses or in some cases using calibrated scientific instruments. What early philosophers described as empiricist and empirical research have in common is the dependence on observable data to formulate and test theories and come to conclusions." Mathematics meets these criteria best. Math is evidence - observable - calibrated - reproducible - testable and dependent on observation. Math is not totally empirical - nothing is - I think it best represents empiricism in a scientific sense. I would further assert that all experiments are an abstraction in every science.

However this "question" is off topic - let's pursue this in another thread.
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Fan of Science »

You are confusing the use of mathematics as part of some empirical project, from mathematics itself. That's a huge difference. Math is completely non-empirical, but it can be used by scientists, like physicists, as a tool. If you want to continue making this false claim about mathematics, then continue on with someone else. No mathematician will agree with you.
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Woodart »

Fan of Science wrote:You are confusing the use of mathematics as part of some empirical project, from mathematics itself. That's a huge difference. Math is completely non-empirical, but it can be used by scientists, like physicists, as a tool. If you want to continue making this false claim about mathematics, then continue on with someone else. No mathematician will agree with you.

You are very sure of yourself - too sure - this is a flaw. Philosophy is the first science - math grew out of philosophy and is also a science.
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Spectrum »

Fan of Science wrote:Philosophy does not address empirical questions, that's what we have other disciplines for. I stand by my earlier statement, there is no empirical evidence showing an increase in theism among the terminally ill or elderly, which is evidence that is inconsistent with the idea that religion is based on a fear of death. We also have religions, like Judaism, which did not dwell on an afterlife, and others, like the Ancient Greeks, that had a horrible vision for the afterlife.
I wonder you are really well verse with Philosophy.

Empiricism is one of the major topic in Philosophy, re Hume et al.
Note this from Wiki:
Empiricism is a theory that states that knowledge comes only or primarily from sensory experience.[1] It is one of several views of epistemology, the study of human knowledge, along with rationalism and skepticism. Empiricism emphasizes the role of empirical evidence in the formation of ideas, over the idea of innate ideas or traditions;[2] empiricists may argue however that traditions (or customs) arise due to relations of previous sense experiences.[3]

Empiricism in the philosophy of science emphasizes evidence, especially as discovered in experiments. It is a fundamental part of the scientific method that all hypotheses and theories must be tested against observations of the natural world rather than resting solely on a priori reasoning, intuition, or revelation.

Empiricism, often used by natural scientists, says that "knowledge is based on experience" and that "knowledge is tentative and probabilistic, subject to continued revision and falsification."[4] One of the epistemological tenets is that sensory experience creates knowledge. Empirical research, including experiments and validated measurement tools, guides the scientific method.
Fan of Science wrote:I stand by my earlier statement, there is no empirical evidence showing an increase in theism among the terminally ill or elderly, which is evidence that is inconsistent with the idea that religion is based on a fear of death.
You are in denial mode and do not bother to collect evidences on this matter.

I have already provided you a clue and supporting research regarding the older one get the greater the tendency to believe in God. Re Anthony Flew and there are many others.

How the World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind.
http://strangenotions.com/flew/

Increase in theism re terminal ill?
What do you mean increase?
The fact is such deathbed and 'upon being informed of such an illness' conversions do happen.
There are lots of cases of the terminal-ills converting from atheism to theism. I told you a few of my kins did that.

Note: Do a research on "deathbed conversion"
A deathbed conversion is the adoption of a particular religious faith shortly before dying. Making a conversion on one's deathbed may reflect an immediate change of belief, a desire to formalize longer-term beliefs, or a desire to complete a process of conversion already underway.
We also have religions, like Judaism, which did not dwell on an afterlife, and others, like the Ancient Greeks, that had a horrible vision for the afterlife.
Judaism do deal with the issue of death. I have given links elsewhere.
Note Buddhism [core] is atheistic and do not deal with the afterlife but the "fear of death" [mother of all sufferings] is its central motivator.

If you dig deeper you will note the primary motivator of ALL religions is due to the empirical certainty of mortality and its related responses [fear in the unconscious level, etc.].

Btw, note I am not dealing with a conscious fear of death [secondary] but primarily with 'fear of death' [its neural sub-system] at the subconscious level.

I suggest you research deeper and wider on the above subject.

-- Updated Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:32 pm to add the following --

@Fan of Science
Fan of Science wrote:You are confusing the use of mathematics as part of some empirical project, from mathematics itself. That's a huge difference. Math is completely non-empirical, but it can be used by scientists, like physicists, as a tool. If you want to continue making this false claim about mathematics, then continue on with someone else. No mathematician will agree with you.
Again the above views are very short-sighted.

Point is mathematics cannot exists without an empirical basis and grounding.
Numbers has an empirical basis from the human ten fingers.
Nonetheless Mathematics is only effective when its rational and empirical basis complement each other.

Note this thread from one scientific Forum.
Is mathematics empirical?
Reference https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/i ... cal.55030/

Here is one view:
Empiricism is a form of realism that denies that mathematics can be known a priori at all. It says that we discover mathematical facts by empirical research, just like facts in any of the other sciences.
https://en.wik1ipedia.org/wiki/Philosop ... athematics
There are various views but I believe strongly, mathematics has an empirical grounding which enable its rational axioms.
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Burning ghost »

Fan of Science is clearly saying you cannot experience the number one. He is correct.

Stating two random cases (one from "The Mirror" is hardly to be considered empirical evidence.

woodart says Math is the most empirical. That is utter ****. If not bring a number to me and lay it before my eyes.

20 posts into his experience of the forum and met with this? haha! Nice to meet you friend and good bye. ;)
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Surreptitious57 »

Mathematics is not a science because it does not deal with observable phenomena in the same way that physics does
It is primarily a deductive discipline that employs proof while science is primarily an inductive discipline that employs
evidence. The difference is that proof deals with what is definitely true and evidence deals with what is probably true
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Spectrum »

Burning ghost wrote:Fan of Science is clearly saying you cannot experience the number one. He is correct.
You don't seem to get it.
The basis of the number one or two is empirical.
Early humans abstract numbers from their daily experiences especially their fingers.
The concept of units is so glaring, i.e. a single animal, fruit, tool, etc. has less utility than two or more.
Numbers are merely signs assigned to these units.
There are no ontological numbers which exist independently of humans.
Stating two random cases (one from "The Mirror" is hardly to be considered empirical evidence.
This is very petty.
I had stated I have direct experiences of kins converting due to illness and terminal situations.
I did not assert those two random cases is the full support my premises.
Don't you understand the typical case of giving examples from a quickie google search.
The fact that the once most notable [not just any ordinary] atheist converted to theism carry a lot of weight support my point.

If there is something at stake I will produce more evidences [this will be very time consuming]. You want to bet $1 million on this, then I will collect the necessary data.
I have read a lot of deathbed conversions and conversions in desperate situations. I am confident [based on the principles involved] there is sufficient real evidence to support my point.
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by -1- »

Spectrum wrote: The basis of the number one or two is empirical.
Early humans abstract numbers from their daily experiences especially their fingers.
The concept of units is so glaring, i.e. a single animal, fruit, tool, etc. has less utility than two or more.
Numbers are merely signs assigned to these units.
There are no ontological numbers which exist independently of humans.
You are quite right in how the concept of mathematical principles emerged. But you are merging the baby with the bath water when you don't progress from the event of FORMATION of mathematics to the DEVELOPMENT and ESTABLISHMENT of math principles.

You say math would not exist outside of man's mind. This is more-or-less true (given what we know or what we imagine to know of the knowledge extant in other thinking-feeling beings other than humans). However, the same system could be designed by another intelligent species, quite independent from man.

You say math would not exist outside of man's mind. But not everything INSIDE man's mind is empirical. The system of logic is infallible and unassailable, yet it only exists in man's mind. The lack of existence of something outside of man's mind is not an indication that it's not purely a priori.

Yes, early man did use the concept of one goat, two goat, three goat, to develop cardinal numbers. But that tool took a life of his own, mathematics did, and it became a system which is ever increasing in known complexity.

The system of math uses axioms, that defy proof, and are accepted without questioning as truth; and the rest of math grew out of there. Whether humans who developed the a priori laws of math used empirical evidence to come up with the superstructure of more complex math systems or not, is immaterial from the point of view that math is a priori. It is immaterial, because the rules of math are not established by empirical evidence (although systematically developed on it) but by the axioms of the system. Even if reality changes fundamentally, the math system does not, it only needs to observe and obey the rules lain down in its axioms.

-- Updated 2017 June 30th, 3:26 am to add the following --
Spectrum wrote: I believe 'fear of death' in combination with self-consciousness is the primary cause of why the majority of people cling to religions [at the subliminal level].

Views?
You need to tell us also whether in your system the fear is a necessary reason, or a sufficient reason, or neither, or both, at the subliminal level, for people to be religious?

Also, if you think about it, NOT every person on his deathbed becomes religious for the rest of his life. Many deconvert. Many stay atheistic. Many don't know the difference. Many are too comatose to think.

In fact, many of the religious do leave their religion or even abandon their faith in god when faced with death on a first-name basis.

My criticism of your point "fear of death is the primary motivator to become religious" is not the denial of death bed conversions. In stead, it is the ignoring of the deathbed conversions. At that point little is at stake: the person can follow the rules of any religion. They are not even required in most cases to do so. But they are forced; they are facing death; they are graspign at straws.

If fear of death was the REAL motivator for religions, then there would be no atheists, way before the death bed stage is reached; for the fear of death is ever-present in man's mind. You can't separate a man's life and thoughts form having a fear of death. So if one guy (on the death bed) fears death enough to convert; why does not the non-death-bed-guy (NDBG) feel the same? The NDBG should be religious if your proposition were true, but the NDBG is prancing around happily with atheistic sentiments. Why?
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Spectrum »

-1- wrote:You are quite right in how the concept of mathematical principles emerged. But you are merging the baby with the bath water when you don't progress from the event of FORMATION of mathematics to the DEVELOPMENT and ESTABLISHMENT of math principles.
My argument was the grounding of Mathematics is based [grounded] on experience and thus empirically based.
The development and establishment of mathematical principles and axioms are based on the higher rational mind [intellect] i.e. reason but the root of reason is still experience i.e. empirical.
As I had stated Mathematics is grounded on on the empirical but the full range of mathematics is based on the complementary interaction between the empirical [base] and the rational intellect.
You say math would not exist outside of man's mind. This is more-or-less true (given what we know or what we imagine to know of the knowledge extant in other thinking-feeling beings other than humans). However, the same system could be designed by another intelligent species, quite independent from man.
My basis was confined to human minds. Yes, it is possible with beings of other species but basically it is still mind-based.
You say math would not exist outside of man's mind. But not everything INSIDE man's mind is empirical. The system of logic is infallible and unassailable, yet it only exists in man's mind. The lack of existence of something outside of man's mind is not an indication that it's not purely a priori.
By outside man's mind I meant an ontological existent, i.e. absolutely independent of man's mind.
Whatever is DNA based, i.e. a priori is before experience, i.e. inherent and instinctual but mathematics can only arise when these a priori element combine with the a posteriori elements, i.e. Synthetic a priori judgments [Kant].
Yes, early man did use the concept of one goat, two goat, three goat, to develop cardinal numbers. But that tool took a life of his own, mathematics did, and it became a system which is ever increasing in known complexity.
No matter how complex it gets, the basis is still empirically based together with DNA based elements.
The system of math uses axioms, that defy proof, and are accepted without questioning as truth; and the rest of math grew out of there. Whether humans who developed the a priori laws of math used empirical evidence to come up with the superstructure of more complex math systems or not, is immaterial from the point of view that math is a priori. It is immaterial, because the rules of math are not established by empirical evidence (although systematically developed on it) but by the axioms of the system. Even if reality changes fundamentally, the math system does not, it only needs to observe and obey the rules lain down in its axioms.
Axioms are at best more polished "assumptions" that are agreed by consensus within the Mathematical community.
Mathematics is not absolutely a priori, but rather it is synthetic a priori judgments which is dependent on human minds [based empirical elements].

To paraphrase Kant,
Synthetic a priori judgments are like kites flying 'freely' in the sky as if on their own, but if one looks from a distance these kites are controlled by humans through the attached strings.
If we cut the strings of the kites, these kites cannot fly on their own independently and will be destroyed.

Mathematics axioms are like these kites with strings controlled by humans. These mathematical axioms cannot exist independently of humans.

-- Updated 2017 June 30th, 3:26 am to add the following --
Spectrum wrote: I believe 'fear of death' in combination with self-consciousness is the primary cause of why the majority of people cling to religions [at the subliminal level].
Views?
You need to tell us also whether in your system the fear is a necessary reason, or a sufficient reason, or neither, or both, at the subliminal level, for people to be religious?

Also, if you think about it, NOT every person on his deathbed becomes religious for the rest of his life. Many deconvert. Many stay atheistic. Many don't know the difference. Many are too comatose to think.

In fact, many of the religious do leave their religion or even abandon their faith in god when faced with death on a first-name basis.

My criticism of your point "fear of death is the primary motivator to become religious" is not the denial of death bed conversions. In stead, it is the ignoring of the deathbed conversions. At that point little is at stake: the person can follow the rules of any religion. They are not even required in most cases to do so. But they are forced; they are facing death; they are graspign at straws.

If fear of death was the REAL motivator for religions, then there would be no atheists, way before the death bed stage is reached; for the fear of death is ever-present in man's mind. You can't separate a man's life and thoughts form having a fear of death. So if one guy (on the death bed) fears death enough to convert; why does not the non-death-bed-guy (NDBG) feel the same? The NDBG should be religious if your proposition were true, but the NDBG is prancing around happily with atheistic sentiments. Why?
Note this analogy;

DNA wise, ALL humans has the potential for sex, by default - heterosexual drives.
You will note [which is obvious] not every adult is sexually active, some are asexual, they just do not have the drive for sex their whole life.
Some are homosexual, bisexual, etc.

It is the same for the religious drive based on the fear factor [subliminal].
DNA wise ALL humans are born with the inherent existential crisis that drives them to seek consonance.
Like the sex drive, not all will seek consonance via God and religion.
Note appx. 10% seek religions that are atheistic, e.g. Buddhism, Jainism to relieve their dissonance.

The point is the basis of all religions are driven and motivated by the fear factor - existential crisis at the subliminal level.
[it is possible for those who are not religiously incline to adopt a religion as a matter of convenience or forced into it, but this number is not significant].

DNA wise ALL humans are born with the inherent existential crisis that drives them to seek consonance through various methods. The majority will be driven to religion but not all will take to God and religion, the minority [say 10%] avoided God and religion and rely on secular methods, rationality, drugs, and whatever.

My point in the latter posts is, while some avoided God and religion in their early life due to various reasons in their brain, SOME [not all] will resort to God and religion when the inhibitors in the brain atrophize and weakened naturally as they grow older.
I did not say 100% who were not religious nor atheists in their younger days will certainly turn to God and religion as they grow older.

My point is, DNA wise the forces that drive humans to god and religions are inherent, very primal and always there within the depth of the basement of the brain. These drives are dominant in the majority, that is why the majority are either theists and/or religious.
In fact, many of the religious do leave their religion or even abandon their faith in god when faced with death on a first-name basis.
This is happening, not necessary when faced with death. This is because a small percentage will somehow develop stronger inhibitors as they mature to suppress the forces of the existential crisis and turn away from God and religions.
This is what humanity at present should aim for.
The individual[s] should understand why they are driven to God and religion. Once they understand their basis [the machinery] for being religious in in their brain, they can then develop stronger inhibitors to suppress the forces of the existential crisis and be able to wean off theism and religion for higher value morality and spirituality without any potential for evil and violence.

This is the reason for the OP, i.e. for the majority of those who are theists and religious to understand what is going on inside their brain and thus to steer [gradually and voluntarily] away from theism and religionism toward World Peace.
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Burning ghost »

Spectrum -

"Should" and "should not" are ideological doctrines. You are professing more knowledge than you have any right to claim.

It would be nice again to see you make another description of "Existential Crisis". What it is about is subjective ideas of "purpose" and "meaning", and the "value" of life. Existential Crisis is not about "fear of death", it is about lack of understanding and meaning, and coming to terms with our subjective and limited view of ourselves and our world/s.

This is most certainly a huge part of the religious questions and experience, and the mainstay of religious investigations. All religions attempt to approach the issue of existential crisis. Reference to "death" is stems from the foundation of the existential crisis the existential crisis does not spawn forth from fear of death, that is just poor reasoning and deeply bias opinion of religious people in thinking they only turn to religion, or have religious experiences, because they fear death. It is simply untrue and what, if anything, is reported and experienced in religious experience is just as often not fear of death, although some cases have visions of hell others have visions of heaven. In dream cycles we now know people tend to go through these "good" and "bad" experiences in their sleep. Some have even attributed the idea that if you don't get enough sleep you'll more likely act out the repressed emotions not dealt with during sleep (this is purely a psychoanalytic premise though based on a limited number of cases - it is not conclusive evidence just an idea.)
The individual[s] should understand why they are driven to God and religion.
On who's authority? This is not the first nor the second time you've said what people "should" do. It doesn't help your case in the slightest.

Have you been "driven" to God and religion? If so you better express this before dictating what other people who have been driven to God and religion should or should not do.

I guess we can ask is "death" empirical? Do I have experience of "death" or not? You can then do the reasoning from there.
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Fan of Science »

Oh, because I am positive that mathematics is not empirical, then there must be something wrong with me? How childish. The reason I am positive that math is not empirical is because I have textbooks on topics like abstract algebra, discrete mathematics, real analysis, complex analysis, mathematical logic, etc., which all state that mathematics is non-empirical, and for the reasons I stated. All mathematical objects are abstractions, and theorems come into existence through the use of deductive reasoning and proofs based on deductive reasoning. While mathematics can be used to solve empirical questions, this does not make mathematics itself empirical. If anyone thinks mathematics is empirical, then they don't know math. This is very basic stuff. It's not up for debate, it just is.

Same with philosophy. A philosophical question is a non-empirical question. That doesn't mean philosophers won't take into consideration facts of science, and history, etc., but the nature of philosophy itself is to address questions that cannot be answered empirically. This is also basic stuff, not open to debate.

-- Updated June 30th, 2017, 10:58 am to add the following --

I just noticed that it was a moderator who made that childish argument, as well as this one: that philosophy was the first science, and math grew out of philosophy and is also a science. That's first off, incorrect history. It's backwards. The ancient Greeks, who came up with the idea of deductive mathematical proofs, then extended that mathematical reasoning to logic and then to philosophical debate regarding such things as politics. In other words, math gave rise to philosophy, not the other way around. But, more importantly, even if math grew out of philosophy, that would not make math empirical. The premise could be true, and the conclusion false.

If this is the type of argument being made by an actual moderator here, showing that a moderator does not know basic history, basic math, and basic philosophy, consider me gone from here. I refuse to participate in any philosophy forum where the forum moderators don't have a clue about what philosophy even is.
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Burning ghost »

Fan of Science -

The mods are volunteers who watch out for misuse in the forums. Being mod doesn't mean the person is any kind of an expert or well versed in the subject matter (I think we're all amateurs of a fashion here.)

Don't run away just yet, I am sure you'll find some use for this forum :)
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Woodart »

This inquiry about math is off topic. Please refer to the new topic - What is Mathematics?

http://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/ ... =1&t=14918
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The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021