"Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Burning ghost
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Burning ghost »

I honestly cannot say any one thing conclusively "motivates" someone to take up "religion".

The OP is skewed towards the assumption that "Fear of Death" is the primary motivator of religion, yet then goes on to say in combination with "self consciousness" (which is a sketchy and vague statement).

If we just ask outright what are the primary motivations for religion I can certainly accept that "Fear of Death" will be up there. Undoubtedly "fear" is a strong motivating force in humans.

I often compare attributes of religion to patriotism. I think we see one aspect of the motivation here. A sense of identity and of belonging, which I guess is what is being referred to in the OP by saying "self consciousness"?

I have posted on this forum about my view of "religion" elsewhere so I will not go into depth here where I have elsewhere. Generally though I think what people find attractive is themselves and their place in The World. Understanding this and occupying some ideas of finality to these questions probably fill people with hope and a reason to live with the idea of some hidden meaning. This can be viewed by two extreme views as being a ideology that involves refusing to take responsibility or as being a humble approach to life full of humility (a degree of cynicism on at both extremes causes the other to look irrational).

I think none of us like to believe that our lives have no "meaning". That what we do makes essentially no difference. That when we die we come to an end.

I think Socrates hit the nail on the head. Death is like an unopened gift, it may have something inside or it may be empty. What is certain is that whatever death holds is open to pure speculation.

In more modern times "sleep" has been compared to "death" too. I think it was Sartre who went into depth on this idea? (I may be mistaken?) I have seen this discussed briefly on another forum by others, but really didn't go into too much myself.

I myself don't fear death. I do admit I fear the process of dying and pain obviously. I think the whole "religious" attitude of humanity is bound up in our unconscious. For me religion represents (in many cases a distorted and confused representation) the manifestation of inner, and all too human, conflicts common to all people. Some of these conflicts are clearly going to have to face up to the idea of our lives coming to some end.

To give a general idea of what I believe to be the innate motivation for religious attitudes, I would have to say self-understanding. This is very vague I know and covers everything from mortality to ethics and moral ideals. As for religious institutions and how they create a set way of thinking and looking at the world, they all seem to attempt to create some ideal "brotherhood" of humanity, a sense of identity that attempts to reach beyond national boundaries and even beyond a common language to create a sense of togetherness. At once I find this both admirable and naïve/dangerous.

Within these institutions what they tend to play on is not the fear of death itself, but rather the fear of the unknowable proposed "after life". It is a system based on reward and punishment. It tries to take away the decision of the individual to do as they feel and to encourage them to act as if the institution owns the authority on right and wrong. This is why I say above it is at either end of the scale lack of self-responsibility and, at the other, supplication and humility.

What I have looked at elsewhere, in reasonable detail, is the commonality of practices that are embraced by religions (and shown clearly to be used by the likes of Buddha, Jesus and the like all the way back to the ancient Myth of Gilgamesh). All these practices have the potential to induce ASC (Altered States of Consciousness). In these states humans become very open. These states are very revealing and can give the subject a very new and radical turn-around in how they view their day-to-day lives and the lives of others. It is a powerful mental state, and with it comes danger.

My general conclusion is that "religion" is a cast off of pre-religious techniques that helped induce such states. I believe that the prime motivation is about attaining these states and controlling them, although I would add that religious institutions don't really seem to be interested in these practices directly anymore and have moved into geopolitics (especially in practices in originating in the Middle East). Buddhism at least, in part, remains somewhat more on track in its pursuit and investigation into the human psyche and its adherence to meditative techniques seems, to me, to be a throw off from prehistoric shamanic techniques which we know for a fact share numerous techniques to induce ASC's with various religious practices. These include fasting, sleep dep., chanting, sensory dep., trance dancing, hyperventilation, isolation, and a variety of other techniques which all stress the body.

The best way to study this area is to look into anthropology and the newer field of neuroarcheology too. It is worth remembering that anthropologists are generally very unwilling to draw stark conclusions. It is a science and they merely state the facts as they are. Neuroarcheology is a really interesting field because it attempts to use what we know about brain function to deduce what certain practices and artifacts MAY have meant to prehistoric human. I say really interesting because it is willing to speculate a little and explore possibilities (something very much opposed in general scientific research and data collecting).

Colin Renfrew is often labelled as the pioneer in this field so he is a very interesting read.

The motivation for the individual may well be anything from fear of death, to revenge, or simply to feel a part of something "greater" and more important than themselves (or contrary to this to give themselves a sense of import in a vast and seemingly "meaningless" universe).

In the bigger overall picture I neither see "religion" (in the sense I have attempted to outline it beyond the idea of religious institutions) nor science as being good or bad. I do see parties of both sometimes lacking understanding of the primary intent of each for all in each party. We have anti-theists, atheists, anti-atheists, anti-antitheist theists, theists and a number of other divisions. Those that only see atheists and theists are not seeing the broader investigations and oppositions that exist within the human community.It is generally easier, and the natural habit of humans, to attempt to view ideas as two opposing forces. This is the dichotomy of humans that prevails across all areas of investigation because of our rational approach to The World. Even the idea of dualism draws on this dichotomy and has pervaded in human societies creating a schism of convenience. We talk about right and wrong, left and right, black and white, yet we all know often we talk like this where often there are shades of grey and that all these applications are rational either/or applications that do not always necessarily adhere to reality and promote the idea of absolutes where we have no experience of an "absolute" outside of abstract principles.

I realise I have gone off on a tangent here a little. I guess any question I see I look for the motivating factors into the question posed and how the question is being presented in favour of this or that dichotic approach (as it necessarily must to be presented in the first place!). Also, I am putting into practice my writing technique here too for my own selfish/selfless purposes ;)

-- Updated June 9th, 2017, 3:07 am to add the following --

I should add that I am looking at the Origins of Religions here and what it means to humanity rather than our current swathe of religious institutions which I am painting here as the leftovers of a universally human prehistoric tradition.
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Spectrum »

Burning ghost wrote:I honestly cannot say any one thing conclusively "motivates" someone to take up "religion".

The OP is skewed towards the assumption that "Fear of Death" is the primary motivator of religion, yet then goes on to say in combination with "self consciousness" (which is a sketchy and vague statement).

If we just ask outright what are the primary motivations for religion I can certainly accept that "Fear of Death" will be up there. Undoubtedly "fear" is a strong motivating force in humans.

I often compare attributes of religion to patriotism. I think we see one aspect of the motivation here. A sense of identity and of belonging, which I guess is what is being referred to in the OP by saying "self consciousness"?
...
One of the finer point of problem-solving is to use 'weightage' to prioritize a list of possible root causes.

In the case of "the primary motivator of religion" my weighting would be
  • 1. Fear of the threat of death and mortality = 80%
    2. Consciousness - self-awareness = 10%
    3. All other factors = 10% in total.
Note the fear of death at the conscious level is not the significant issue here. Such a fear at the extreme is a psychiatric problem - Thanatophobia and not mainly a religious problem.

What I see of the above views is the shooting of all over the target but not at the bullseye because of bullseye is blinded from view or one just cannot see it all. Note the case of Attentive Blindness and not seeing the 500 pound gorilla for various reasons.
  • Here is an analogy:
    Suppose one is asked why is that handsome person so obsessed with grooming himself every hour?
    The answer could be he wants to attract the girl next door so he can have sex with her, be his boyfriend and eventually to hoping marry her to live happily ever after.
    Every minute men and women are behaving in a wide range of way all over the world to attract the opposite sex. The most obvious is each want to take each other as friend, later as spouse, to have legal sex, cheap sex, etc.
    Other reasons could be they want a one night stand.
    Other reasons is they are just obsessed with themselves being narcissistic, etc.
    Marketeers and advertiser could be exploiting this sex drive for profit
    Another whole loads of reasons could be given by a wide range of people.
    But is the real root cause to start with?

    But more often people do not understand the root cause of all the above variations, i.e. to get the opposite sex to mate and produce the next generations so as to ensure the preservation of the human species. This is the main reason and DNA wise all human [supposedly] has been programmed for such a purpose.

    However in practice, most humans are not aware of the ulterior motive of nature i.e. the inherent sex drive to ensure the preservation of the species on why they are driven to do the above acts.
    I am not saying at present all people should have sex to have children only. What I am saying is they are ignorant of its core evolved purpose.
The above analogy is applicable to the SUBLIMINAL [not this] fear of the threat of death and mortality to ensure survival and preservation of the species. This subliminal fear together with self-awareness generate a terrible dissonance at the subconscious level that drive the majority into adopting religions. Why religions? because it works and will soothe the dissonance almost immediately. Believe and viola one is saved!! QED.

As with the ignorance of the sex machinery, potential and drive to ensure to produce the next generation to preserve the human species, most people will not understand what is the ultimate root causes why they [majority] have ended with a belief in a religion.
It is true there are exceptions, some join a religion, not because they are religious but for other purpose, to marry a spouse, political reasons, etc. But these are the exception. Any one who is into a religion for religious purpose is driven by that existential crisis arising from that unconscious fear of death in combination with self-awareness of the annihilation of one's clinged on precious ego.

To test my hypothesis;
  • The neural organ controlling the emotion of fear is the amygdala and its related connecting neuron.
    Theoretically if the amygdala and connect neurons are removed, the human will not have a fear emotion.
    Without a fear emotion, that person will not have fear of death and whatever will happen after death.
    In this state, the person will not have any existential crisis based on fears and thus will not seek solutions for it. Since there is demand for such a solution, there will be no religions.
The above is a theoretical test thus cannot be put into practice because the amydalla has many other interdependent functions and not merely fears. Besides if the fear emotion is removed human will be reckless thus risk getting killed and defeat the purpose of preservation of the species.

In practice, there are many effective ways to modulate the existential dissonance via different ways to inhibit the impulses without a need for religions. This is not easy for most, that is why religions are still very prevalent at present.

What is critical is humanity must understand the root cause proposed in my thesis so that effective actions can be initiated from now with the hope there will be a fool proof [non-religious] solution in the future to eliminate religious-based evils and violence.

Why is it critical to understand the root cause of religions? It is because religions, especially Islam [in part] is posing a serious threat to humanity with the possibility SOME evil prone Muslims could exterminate the human race including themselves. They have nothing to lose in such an event because they are assured of a place in heaven a martyr regardless.
(just in case .. humanity must address all evils regardless but note this is a forum on religion and not other subjects)

With those of your views outside the bullseye, humanity will be forever fire-fighting ans perhaps suffer premature extinction.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Philosch »

Spectrum wrote:
Philosch wrote:The fairy tale route is easily the most seductive, the most likely for primitive beings to adopt and also the one that's most likely to lead to a culture that does not live in harmony with "WHAT IS". It is the mode of thinking most satisfying to the ego, the self-important part of any conscious human as it's the only mode of thinking that promises that this particular person or individual being is important and will continue on after it's body dies.

This basic theme not only is the root of ALL religion, it gives rise to all kinds of belief systems, beliefs in ghosts, alien abductions, you name it. All of those seemingly unrelated and widely varying beliefs reflect the need for individual egos to remain important, significant and even immortal in some sense or even quite literally. Religious belief is an extremely egotistical thing to engage in. It assures ego's they are important, loved and immortal....of course that's all dependent on obedience to the particular belief but that part has been added on as a means of social control by clever people seeking power and recognizing how to play upon that original underlying fear.
..
..
If we as a species of conscious being never conquer this fear and never develop a harmony with what is we will perish much sooner than we would have otherwise at the hands of the universe......but then maybe that fact is also part of accepting WHAT IS.
Well said, I agree but add besides Zen, there are many effective ways to deal with the existential dilemma to maintain consonance.

What is critical here is whenever there is an issue with religion [God exists, violence, evils, etc.] we must dig into the issues and ground them to the above existential crisis manifesting from subliminal and unconscious.
Note my further details in this post.
http://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/ ... 72#p288572

The existence of a God is illusory and grounded on an inherent inevitable unavoidable psychological existential crisis.

So it is not 'God said so' that a believer can do this or that [worst is killing non-believers] but rather the root cause is due to what is going on within the sub-conscious mind of the individual[s].
Yeah we are pretty much on the same page...I only gave Zen as an example and it's certainly not the only way one can identify to something beyond their own ego. I believe as you do. Burning Ghost I think fails to see how something like the primitive, possibly the most basic fear of all gets sublimated into more complex fears and leads to what appear to be more complex motivations while at the core of these things you can still see the archetypal fear at the heart of the matter. Burning Ghost mentions self awareness...but self awareness is precisely the thing that leads to the conscious fear of death without which creatures have merely a survival instinct with causes fear like behavior when in turn is simply instinct without conscious fear.
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Burning ghost »

Where do opinions get us ?
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Philosch »

Burning ghost wrote:Where do opinions get us ?
Of course only so far. By sound inductive reasoning you can get to a starting point for a reasonable theory but ultimately you do need deduction based on science and actual observation to either verify or refute theoretical views so your point is well taken. I would submit however that the nature of almost all these philosophical discussions are attempts at inductive reasoning and as such are essentially opinions. I suppose the value is in the skillful practice of expression and debate one should hopefully learn and expand their own range of knowledge. At least I hope that's what most open minded people would get out of this kind of exercise. It is however just my opinion so if I have not convinced you in regards to the sublimation of very basic archetypal emotions into complex forms then so be it, I haven't provided a very good argument or haven't presented convincingly enough and that's on me.

In this specific case the idea is to convince people of a truth, that religion is a man made construct as a reaction to fear and as such by inference should be replaced by a healthier construct. The complex emotional and psychological structures and constructs that have now developed over the centuries in an effort to comfort the ego makes it almost impossible to convince those same ego's that their cause of remaining in being is hopeless. But it's worth discussion to me even if only a few are reached. In my few our very existence as a species depends on it.
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Burning ghost »

We may as well say that fear of death is the primary motivator for everything then? If not explain why please. It does not seem to me to narrow this down to a specific motivation for religion.

Also, I didn't bring up the term "self consciousness" and don't really know what is meant by this by spectrum.

To look at religion as a way of coping with certain questions and problems in life I can accept quite readily. We all know about the fight or flight mechanism, but humans existence seems to have excelled because we can gain control over our emotional states and learn from them.

I don't accept either "fear" or "death" as the root cause of religion. I do completely agree that "fear" is of huge importance. To mention ASC's you'll see that physiologically many of the triggers required to induce these states are triggers obviously related to basic survival and immanent, or rather the approach of, death. Fasting, sleep dep., or some form of extreme stress.

In fact it is through ideas of Jung and archetypes, as well as other areas, that I came to regard "religion" in the way I do. Shamanism presents a culture/tradition that is innate across the globe. There are certain techniques and they all rely on inducing ASC's, and these techniques are present, in milder forms, in all religious practices.

What I am saying doesn't really reveal the motivation for religious institutions though. I do see an obvious connection between these "shamanic" practices and the practices that religious institutions employ. Religious institutions are political vehicles, where shamanic practice is more of a broader reflection of something innate in humans (the shamans being more prone to being able to induce and control such mind altering states). It is a very rich and broad subject about which I have barely scratched the surface of the scholarship.

I just get a little tired of hearing that religion is about placating peoples fears and thoughts about death or was made to control and manage people. I am not going to argue that this has been and is not the case in many instances. For my own reasons I think there is something underlying in human nature that is framed in what some anthropologists call "religiosity" (meaning will all possess the propensity to commit to this or that belief and will, no matter how rational we are, see things that are there and try to rationalize what we see). We assume cause an reason in everything we observe in nature, and science has led us along this path with great success. Intuitively some people simply are not capable of grasping things like evolution and look to quantum mechanics as proof of god because even scientists cannot intuitively understand what is going on, although they can use the information to achieve some breakthroughs here and there.

The whole issue of rationalizing "fear" is something that I don't want to veer into right now. I'll start rambling about Husserl and then people will switch off no doubt, and if not I'll make the usual mess of trying to express what I mean again :D haha!

All this said, we don't appear to be rational in spite of emotions. We appear to be rational because of our emotions. To put it crudely we eat, **** and die. We sustain ourselves, reproduce and then die. I guess we may as well say these three things are of primary concern not only to religion but to all human beings (at least on some level even the altruist, the asexual or food striker).
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Spectrum »

Philosch wrote:...
possibly the most basic fear of all gets sublimated into more complex fears and leads to what appear to be more complex motivations while at the core of these things you can still see the archetypal fear at the heart of the matter.
I like the term 'sublimated' and its concept to represent the point.

It it this core drive, the 'fear of death' at the subliminal level [unconscious] that get infused and combine with other impulses to generate terrible angst, anxieties, despairs, hopelessness, loss of meaning, and the likes that drive the majority into religions.

-- Updated Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:25 pm to add the following --

@ Burning Ghost
We may as well say that fear of death is the primary motivator for everything then? If not explain why please. It does not seem to me to narrow this down to a specific motivation for religion.
Yes! it is 50% of everything, the other 50% is SEX.
  • Here is the induction;
    1. By induction, all living things thus humans strive to survive at all costs,
    2. This (1) is supported by two core drives;
    ...(i) The sex drive to reproduce the next generation
    ..(ii) Fear of the threat of premature death to ensure (i)
The above two drives will be sublimated and get infused into a wide varieties of impulses that manifest all human behaviors [normal or otherwise].

It is (ii) that combine with self-awareness with the certainty of mortality that generate terrible cognitive dissonance at the subliminal level which manifest as terrible angst, anxieties, despairs, hopelessness, loss of meaning, and the likes that drive the majority into religions.
So the primary motivator of religions is (ii) Fear of the death.
To look at religion as a way of coping with certain questions and problems in life I can accept quite readily.
Problem is you never ask WHY the questions and problems in life arise from.
If you study the Abrahamic religions, you will note the primary concern is the fear of death, i.e. mortality and the quest for immortality. These religions promised immortality if any one believe in their God, God's agent and holy texts.
Even in Buddhism which is not theistic, the core issue is death as highlighted in the Buddha story and some Buddhists insist rebirth is possible.
In Hinduism, the main concept is reincarnation which avoid annihilation of the soul.
If you study all the other religions in depth, you will note the central issue is reducible to (ii) above in the form of an existential crisis at the subliminal level.
I just get a little tired of hearing that religion is about placating peoples fears and thoughts about death or was made to control and manage people.
You seem to have mixed up fear at the Subliminal level with [ii] fear on the conscious level. The distinction is critical and the former is more critical in this issue.

Religions do not state their specific mission is to soothe people's fear of death.
I believe most religion highlight the fear of death as a main issue but merely address merely its symptoms, i.e. provide meaning, soothe,worries, provide a social structure, ethics, etc.
For most theistic believers they would not dare to question further for fear the security blanket they got from the religion is pulled off from them.

Another point is one need to understand how proto religions first arise very early on till culminating in the modern religions.
The existential crisis induced by fear of death + self-awareness has been there from day one humans has a reasonably level of self-awareness.
From the anthropological perspective, to soothe this pangs and angst, the proto-people believed in all sorts of things, believing in some higher power from the mountains, volcanoes, sky, trees, river, etc. Then we have the Shamans who experienced ASCs naturally or hallucinogens. It is from these proto-practices that give rise to the present day religions.
If you dig through this vein, you will note the proximate root cause is (ii) above, i.e. the fear of death.

Bring in 'Husserl' or anyone else if it is relevant. I will welcome it. I suggest you look at Soren Kierkegaard and the rest of the existential philosophers who followed merely diluted his views.

All this said, we don't appear to be rational in spite of emotions. We appear to be rational because of our emotions.
To put it crudely we eat, **** and die. We sustain ourselves, reproduce and then die. I guess we may as well say these three things are of primary concern not only to religion but to all human beings (at least on some level even the altruist, the asexual or food striker).

I agree the root of rationality are the emotions.

Yes, your views are 'crudely'. What is needed is to put these crude views in a more rational way like what I have done with (1) and (2)[i & ii) above and see the origin of religions are linked to this two core drives.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Burning ghost »

Spectrum -
I believe 'fear of death' in combination with self-consciousness is the primary cause of why the majority of people cling to religions [at the subliminal level].

Views?
What does the "in combination with self-consciousness" mean? Is SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS the primary movtivator or FEAR OF DEATH? What are we meant to understand by this "combination" and the relation of fear to this ambiguous "self-consciousness" which seems of importance to what you are trying to say?

Living things don't "strive" to do anything. That is merely how we view it because we see ourselves as "striving". We imprint our own experience of The World and other entities perceived in The World as "striving" because we do. This is much like the very archaic idea you present of people wandering around thinking some being was making it rain.

We don't think books are happy to be on tables yet you assume prehistoric man thought like it would be?

Read some Colin Renfrew. He is pretty good.

I think you'll find most neuroscientists say we live to understand and figure stuff out. Our brains are wired to reward understanding even at the cost of our lives. Some people even dedicate their lives to study rather than bother to have children and pass on their genes. It seems more llike an unwavering thirst for knowledge is humanities primary motivator. As a species a mixture of individuals contribute obviously toward the survival of the species, but it is unfair to say this is all that motivates us, and I would argue false (if not why isn't everyone interested in having children or scared of coming to an end?)

Also, simply adding in the % sign doesn't hold empirical weight with me although it may appear as an authoritative and well thought out statement at a glance presented with numbered points and such. I am far too wary about your previous presentation to be easily suckered in though (granted you may not even know you're doing what you're doing).

Suicidal people tend to kill themselves so (1) is false. The excuse of these people being "faulty" doesn't hold up to scrutiny either if you try that line of defense because you'd essentially have to say that they are "faulty" or "defected" in their make-up rather than admit that they don't fit neatly into your ideas. I good point you could argue would be to refer to the Kakapo. Douglas Adams make the funniest commentary on their evolution and breeding habits:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCsHuoVABgI

Basically that is an extention of his famous "puddle" metaphor in Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy.

Two core drives? Really? Are we reverting to a Fraudian vie wof the human psyche now? So all our motivations are based on SEX and FEAR OF DEATH? Sounds more like a very dated Darwinian view of emotions that has relevance in the history of neuroscience and psychology, but little practical evidence or use today.

Of course you could be right. Maybe all this thinking is just a necessary distraction from contemplating my own death. Maybe life is simply about me being as distracted as possible from my mortality. That or creating a fiction to make myself believe in some form of immortality. That sadly doesn't explain why some isolated tribes in Africa never even bothered to think of an after life and when they were told about God they simply couldn't grasp the idea and kept asking where this God was. They laughed at the idea. When members of their tribes died they didn't bury and just simply left them there and moved on. You coyuld argue thath these people were "primitive" yet if so, why didn't they have any concept of an afterlife nor of a God-like being?
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Spectrum »

Burning ghost wrote:Spectrum -
I believe 'fear of death' in combination with self-consciousness is the primary cause of why the majority of people cling to religions [at the subliminal level].
Views?
What does the "in combination with self-consciousness" mean? Is SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS the primary motivator or FEAR OF DEATH? What are we meant to understand by this "combination" and the relation of fear to this ambiguous "self-consciousness" which seems of importance to what you are trying to say?
One basic point is the brain[mind] is comprised of quite independent modular functions as represented by their respective primary neural circuits while at the same time each modular function are connected to other different functions to form different sets of mental functions. This is proven by research findings where damaged to certain specific areas affect only specific functions.

My thesis concern the following separate main modular functions;
  • 1. Consciousness
    2. Self-consciousness
    3. Fear -emotion
    4. Fear of threat of death
    5. Awareness of mortality
    6. Survival drive
    7. Others
The above separate modular functions combine via interconnections to generate a function of cognitive dissonance of an existential crisis that generate terrible pains, i.e. psychological angst. Fortunately this very terrible angst is suppressed at the conscious level most of the time but not all the time.
However this very terrible existential crisis and its forces are pulsating like the inside of a volcano that is about to erupt and there are leakages that manifest as psychological angst. Fortunately the most effective way to close and repair these leakages and angst is religions, i.e. believe and viola. To strengthen it human also rely on all other human activities to weigh it down, like you guess, which is right!
Burning ghost wrote:Of course you could be right. Maybe all this thinking is just a necessary distraction from contemplating my own death. Maybe life is simply about me being as distracted as possible from my mortality.
As with most distribution of human variables there are exceptions from the mean and norm. Some do not turn or reject religions [theistic or non-theistic] for various reasons. Some turn to various substance, drugs and escapism to deal with it.

So it is not the modular function of fear of death per se but the associated cognitive dissonance that emerged at the subliminal unconscious mind that is the problem. It is an itch with no specific spot to scratch.
Living things don't "strive" to do anything. That is merely how we view it because we see ourselves as "striving". We imprint our own experience of The World and other entities perceived in The World as "striving" because we do. This is much like the very archaic idea you present of people wandering around thinking some being was making it rain.
Show and prove to me which species of living thing emerge solely for the purpose to be extinct as soon as possible.
My thesis is all living things [see Bell Curve below] evolved to strive to survive at all costs till the inevitable.
I think you'll find most neuroscientists say we live to understand and figure stuff out. Our brains are wired to reward understanding even at the cost of our lives. Some people even dedicate their lives to study rather than bother to have children and pass on their genes. It seems more like an unwavering thirst for knowledge is humanities primary motivator. As a species a mixture of individuals contribute obviously toward the survival of the species, but it is unfair to say this is all that motivates us, and I would argue false (if not why isn't everyone interested in having children or scared of coming to an end?)
That [survival at all cost thus sex and fear of death] is the core/substance that motivate all humans to act they way they do in various forms.

Btw, I presume you are aware of the Principles of the Bell Curve which is true for any large populations like 7+ billion humans.

Image

Due to the complexities of the DNA and brain with a complex environment there is bound to be variations from the default standard. That is why in terms of paternal instinct there will always be a small percentile of exceptions who do not want children, not effected by the existential crisis, and whatever human variable you look at within a large sample.
Also, simply adding in the % sign doesn't hold empirical weight with me although it may appear as an authoritative and well thought out statement at a glance presented with numbered points and such. I am far too wary about your previous presentation to be easily suckered in though (granted you may not even know you're doing what you're doing).

Suicidal people tend to kill themselves so (1) is false. The excuse of these people being "faulty" doesn't hold up to scrutiny either if you try that line of defense because you'd essentially have to say that they are "faulty" or "defected" in their make-up rather than admit that they don't fit neatly into your ideas. I good point you could argue would be to refer to the Kakapo. Douglas Adams make the funniest commentary on their evolution and breeding habits:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCsHuoVABgI

Basically that is an extention of his famous "puddle" metaphor in Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy.
Note the Bell Curve, you are bringing in the exceptional 1% or may be less to try to squash the 99%?
Two core drives? Really? Are we reverting to a Fraudian vie wof the human psyche now? So all our motivations are based on SEX and FEAR OF DEATH? Sounds more like a very dated Darwinian view of emotions that has relevance in the history of neuroscience and psychology, but little practical evidence or use today.
I suggest one to read widely, think hard and reflect deeply on this. Use the principles of the Bell Curve if necessary.
The danger is if one is dogmatic on this view, one will lose one's chance to understand it if it is true .
Of course you could be right. Maybe all this thinking is just a necessary distraction from contemplating my own death. Maybe life is simply about me being as distracted as possible from my mortality. That or creating a fiction to make myself believe in some form of immortality.

I have read widely, think deeply and rationally to understand my thesis is very tenable.
How this thesis is useful?
Note for example those who are so insistent for Sharia Law to stone adulterers to death, chop off hands and feet, and do all sort of terrible evils and violence - based on what??
It is based on their own internal fear that generate an existential crisis and inventing a God that command those inhumane Laws. If they can trace this logical to the root causes within themselves, they will realize how stupid and selfish they are.

It is the same for all other evils and negative acts by all humans which can be reducible to that existential crisis.
Therefore if we target and this root cause, we will likely to achieve greater results than fire-fighting the symptoms.

That sadly doesn't explain why some isolated tribes in Africa never even bothered to think of an after life and when they were told about God they simply couldn't grasp the idea and kept asking where this God was. They laughed at the idea. When members of their tribes died they didn't bury and just simply left them there and moved on. You could argue thath these people were "primitive" yet if so, why didn't they have any concept of an afterlife nor of a God-like being?

You are again focusing on some extreme percentile within the Bell Curve.

Anthropologically, I said there are degrees in how the various tribes of old handle this existential crisis via viewing and fearing of the higher power that control their life and they pray to them [Sun, Moon, rocks, trees, etc.]. Do a research on the origin of religions since humans emerged.
Did the researchers ask whether they prayed to objects in nature, seek shamans, believe in all sort of superstitions other than believed a bearded or monotheistic God. The bearded God thingy and the monotheistic concept of God are the higher evolved concepts of God which of course is beyond the ken of the isolated tribes.
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Burning ghost »

I think you are missing my intention here. I am targeting your use of words. I am not saying anything much so to say I am doing this or that doesn't help you. If you wish to have critic of your thesis (which I would be happy to read if you present it) I will give critic.

If you wish to critic my ideas (I have not written a thesis) then they are outlined vaguely in a thread I made long ago called something like Origin of Religion.

Please explain why the focus is on religion and not work, love, hatred, science or any other facet of human existence? What is significant about this "Fear of Death" that makes it a prominent topic for religion when you openly admit that this "Fear of Death" and "Sex" are the two main contributors to all human activities? It looks like you are being selective in your direction of thought or purposefully obtuse about the extent these two primary motivators (as you see them) don't matter outside the matter at hand (outside of religion).

When I go to work you would say that I go to work because I want sex and fear death. When I watch TV or write to you on the internet I do so because I want sex and fear death. This is what you are saying, and on some level I guess these things are underlying in my very being in a social capacity.

If you start the topic saying "Fear of Death" and "Sex" are the two primary motivators for human beings then I wouldn't say anything. You target quite specifically "religion". Why should we look specifically at religion? Why are we not being asked to look at all of human existence and instead directed at religion where we could just as easily say any of the above regarding human existence?

I guess you could answer by saying your motivation for this thread is based on your fear of death and to have sex. You see why I am digging here?

We could further reduce this line of questioning to ask why I eat chocolate. I would say because it is tasty and pleasurable. From your position you would argue this point and say NO! You eat chocolate because in evolutionary terms you have, by way of natural habit, been able to survive as a human by eating sugary substances that are not naturally prominent in the wild. In modern times we've come to gain ready access to things like salt, sugar and fat that were, in our evolutionary history, very hard to get. Because of this we've developed a natural craving for sugar, salt and fat. This is, as far as we know, a very sound and logical scientific argument and at all angles looks pretty much a given. What this does not say is that I eat chocolate because I fear death or want sex (although some would add biochemical arguments for chocolate as an aphrodisiac, but the evidence is no conclusive as habit, belief and experience can drastically alter how substances effect us).

We can say on some level that me wanting to eat chocolate is because I fear death or want sex. It is far removed from this process though.

I am being purposely pedantic here to a degree, mostly to drive home the need for careful use of language. With religion we can see they are generally occupied with such things as the "soul" and "after-life", as well as "sex". In this respect they dig past the common pleasures of life to address the heart of human existence. Are their methods successful? In the form of Buddhism they seem to have made some reasonable progress. As an institution religion is at is most faulty in my eyes.

To go back to the chocolate. I eat chocolate, listen to music, or partake in some activity willingly in order to experience pleasure. This is the hedonists paid particular attention to. Some people enjoy pain, enjoy killing, enjoy the thrill of dangerous activities that threaten their lives, we all take great pleasure in being scared too. You seem to have overlooked this. Maybe you've addressed it in your thesis?

What evolution has done is shown that generally when we are wired to enjoy this or that we pursue it. If we die because of this we die. As long as enough people survive, despite this gambling with mortality, then the genetic information (or the social traditions created by them) will continue to flourish. It is to deny the basic principles of evolution if we say all living things only exist the way they are because they fear death and want to have sex. This is plainly not true and merely a case of selecting part of a theory to suit this or that position.

On a neurological level the common phrase is that 'what fires together wires together'. The sensation of pleasure is the reward. Learning is rewarded and pursued. When we solve a problem we get a rush of serotonin. Our "purpose" (I really don't like this word used in the way you've used it, but I you can probably guess I am a stickler for this kind of thing and spend a lot of time sitting around thinking about this or that word and its 'meaning') is then to eat salt, sugar, have sex, love, learn, exercise, maybe kill -if we enjoy that too!

I am not a neuroscientist, and I won't pretend my knowledge in this area is extensive, but I have more than a passing interest so I guess my understanding is probably around average to slightly above average (I own a few textbooks on cognitive neuroscience, but admit my focus has been in specific areas therein. An unbelievably fascinating and growing field science!)

I have to admit I am enjoying engaging with you. I see you are trying to express how, and why, religious people commit such horrors. You are suggesting that it is due to those religious people being exposed to a certain kind of fear (guilt is a VERY common feature that ties into social attitudes). The whole fear/pleasure dynamic seems like a fair argument for people committing atrocities. I am not really convinced that religion or, on the personal level, general religious beliefs and attitudes (spirituality of the individual) are purely held under the sway of fear. Pleasure seems to be something you are overlooking a little. In the form of extremism in todays world it is fairly clear these people are engaging in an irrational hatred, propagated by fears and myopic views and understanding of the larger extent of humanity and is necessarily diverse nature. They are in the higher percentiles of the infamous Bell Curve.

I was watching Dawkins recently (not a fan of the guy in general tbh, but ...) he was engaging with a Creationist about evolution and it was very interesting to see Dawkins trying to explain and reason with someone wholly uneducated in basic reasoning or empirical science. It was fascinating to see both parties oblivious to the others problem!

A question I have been asking myself a lot lately is how to engage in a rational discussion with someone who is irrational (I am thinking of religious people at the high end of the scale, because there are plenty of religious people schooled in natural sciences and able to rationalize.)

I was watching something recently about some guy saying God had all the answers ... I will have to find it and start a topic about it! His view appears quite rational in some respects and I can fully understand his position, yet he seems caught in the circularity his misuse of logic. It appears that the "irrational" people, and the irrational inclinations in all of us (we're all prone to mistakes!), stem from either an overextension of certain facets of logic into mathematical logic or vice versa. This of course has been a very broad and ongoing investigation within philosophy since philosophy began. It has also been a problem for science in general with the endless inductions. It is in this area I was referring to Husserl, but think its relevance is too far removed from this topic.

I have not read Kierkegaard yet. I have been meaning to get hold of "Either/or" for a few years, but others things have grabbed my attention. From the bits I have read of him I think I'd get something quite useful form his work.

IF I was to say things like Gordon Ramsey is a chef because he fears death you'd laugh at me. It is just as true to say this though as with any other aspect of life according to your premise. I hope you understand my humour here as well as the basis of my point. Some of the words you used can also be viewed as rhetoric. By this I am referring more or less to Orwell's essay Politics and the English Language. Like he says, we're all going to do this in one way or another and is the reason I point out things like ...

"variations from the default standard"

I am not doing this to be annoying, only to help you think of a better way of expressing something that could be interpreted differently. Of course I understand what you mean in general, but the idea of "standard" is in-itself a politically volatile subject! Not to mention the idea of "default". This is a subtle version of the ease with which we apply mathematical logic with language and more abstract terms. It is a of course necessary for science to use everyday specch in order to be understood by the less technical. Another reason I am wary of the use of "evil". Given our culture and language is littered with judeochristian terminology it is practically impossible to disengage from presenting ideas not under the subtle influence of some religious ideology. Some have even argued that "go forth and multiply" and that the creatures of the Earth are ours to do with as we please, have embeddened a mentality in Western culture that we can simply abuse our natural environment as we see fit.

We can not say the above conclusively though. It is merely a theory to undermine Christian ideology and twsit for some political means (true as the theory may or may not be).

Anything can be proven with selective information. Sadly we are all, no matter what we think, prone to such biased attitudes. Our individual views and our engagements with each other hopefully allow us to move toward more than guess work and spectulation. We most certainly have to start off with guesses and speculation though. Such is human life :)
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Spectrum »

Burning ghost wrote:I am not doing this to be annoying, only to help you think of a better way of expressing something that could be interpreted differently.
I'll definitely give credit where it is deserved. But so far I have not learned of anything significant from what you have written. I learned a lot when I started out in Philosophy Forum and was even willing to "kiss of the feet" of those who had so much knowledge than me and willing to share them. Fortunately I have absorbed their knowledge plus my own learning till the present where I hardly come across any thing of novelty.
Nevertheless I will read what you have written for they are a motivation and leverage to express my thoughts especially where it is related to Islam and its evil.

My current project is full time on the Evils of Islam and the Quran. Thus I am not so fluid with the flow of other knowledge of Philosophy like I used to.

The basis of my current project is this;
I am not officially a Buddhist per se but I have a strong inclination for Buddhist Philosophies in addition to others.
I happened to adopt one of the Bodhisattva Vows, i.e. to empathize and extend compassion to fellow human beings.
One area of extending empathy to fellow humans is their sufferings from ALL evils.
But I don't have the capacity to contribute nor knowledge to deal effectively with ALL evils, so I have to specialize only certain aspects of it.
One aspect of evil I have expertise are those evils related to religions and the most notable evils are the evils from Islam [partly] which is so evident on a daily basis.

Note this notable statistics;
30,995 deadly attacks since 911. [11/June/2017]
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Even if we provide a margin of 20% on doubts of accuracy, 25,000 at 80% is very crazy.
If you read the "NEWS" section of the site you will get an update of the many events evils and violence related to Islam on a daily basis around the World.

As for your reservation with the concept of evil as religious, note I have already mentioned many times to you why the Concept of Evil [as apposite to good] is getting high recognition within the philosophy, psychological, neuroscientific community.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/concept-evil/
I believe you are not up to date on the above.

My Problem Statement is narrowed to the Evils of Islam [partly] and I have presented the elements and root causes of the above thesis earlier.

Now when I have proven and reduced the whole of Islam and its evil to the psychology of fear and its combination resultant the existential crisis, then the idea of God with its commands to commit evil and violence on non-believers is baseless.
When Muslims and other believers turn their attention to their own psychology to deal with the existential crisis internally [like what Buddhism is doing] then [after side lining the Quran's importance] there will be no more basis for Islamic-based evils and violence.
We could further reduce this line of questioning to ask why I eat chocolate. I would say because it is tasty and pleasurable. From your position you would argue this point and say NO! You eat chocolate because in evolutionary terms you have, by way of natural habit, been able to survive as a human by eating sugary substances that are not naturally prominent in the wild.
...
IF I was to say things like Gordon Ramsey is a chef because he fears death you'd laugh at me. It is just as true to say this though as with any other aspect of life according to your premise.

To go back to the chocolate. I eat chocolate, listen to music, or partake in some activity willingly in order to experience pleasure. This is the hedonists paid particular attention to. Some people enjoy pain, enjoy killing, enjoy the thrill of dangerous activities that threaten their lives, we all take great pleasure in being scared too. You seem to have overlooked this. Maybe you've addressed it in your thesis?
I don't expect you to see the link and the whole web in neural linkages in respect to my thesis. Here is how it is linked;
  • 1. DNA wise all humans strive to survive at all costs to preserve the species.
    2. The two main motivators are fear of the threat of death [to avoid premature death] and sex [for reproduction].
    3. To avoid premature death, humans are endowed with various instincts, hunger, fight/flight etc.
    4. Then there is the pleasure [pro survival] and pain [avoid threat of death].
    5. To avoid death through starvation, humans are programmed with hunger pangs to drive them to eat.
    6. Food that are favorable to survival are triggered with feeling of pleasure.
    7. Chocolates themselves has good nutrition elements and also chemicals that triggers the pleasure circuit.
    8. The trail of reason from 1 to 7 above are the reason why you eat chocolate which links back to fear of the threat of death .
You will note you need to ask WHY? 7 times to track to one of the primary motivator in this case.
It it the same for all human activities where you if you keep asking WHY as many times as possible you will arrive at root cause 2 or the ultimate 1 above.

If you are familiar with neuroscience, perhaps you have heard of synesthesia;
  • https://en.wik:pedia.org/wik:/Synesthesia
    Synthestheisa is a neurological phenomenon in which stimulation of one sensory or cognitive pathway leads to automatic, involuntary experiences in a second sensory or cognitive pathway.
    Example someone may hear a certain kind of music when tasting something sour.
    This is because there is abnormal cross connection of neural wires between the senses and its cognitive circuits.
The above is one explanation why
"Some people enjoy pain, enjoy killing, enjoy the thrill of dangerous activities that threaten their lives, we all take great pleasure in being scared too"
is because somehow these activities has been abnormally connected to the pleasure circuit in some degrees. For a masochist, some part of the pain neurons are connected to the pleasure circuit. Note the Bell Curve, a likely percentile will vary from the mean at the extreme at the higher standard deviation [sigma].

Note I am very familiar with all these and I have researched them into since long time ago.
https://en.wik:pedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Mistook_His_Wife_for_a_Hat
Have a read of these from Oliver Sacks' book where this man thought his mother is a hat, and many other weirdos who experienced various abnormalities due to wrong connections.

Now when you track any human activities to the root cause of 1 or 2 above you need to take into account the side connections like those above to explain cases of abnormalities from mild to crazy ones.

There are extreme obese people who suffer from PWS who cannot control their hunger pangs & binge and despite knowing the danger of extreme obesity will just eat till they die of obesity. Why? This can be tracked to the root cause of 2 and 1 with explanation of a side abnormality in their impulse control.

Note the above example is a crude explanation with minimal variables. With 100 billion neurons each with up to 10,000 synapses there are more complex connection to consider.
But the trail to the root cause of religions is not too difficult to track.

You seem to be sniggering at my thesis and analysis but that is your own loss.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Burning ghost »

How can I snigger at something I have not seen? I am remarking more about how you have an agenda which makes sense if presented. I came to this thread by way of taking a broad view of religion. If you are setting out to reveal the evils of Islam then you are not coming at religion without bias.

I understand what the philosophy of evil is about. I merely presented my personal bias toward this term and its history.

I am happy to read your thesis and give feedback if you wish. If not that is fine. It was a genuine offer not a joke.
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Philosch »

Sorry it's taken a while to get back on here...
From Burning Ghost, We may as well say that fear of death is the primary motivator for everything then? If not explain why please. It does not seem to me to narrow this down to a specific motivation for religion.

Also, I didn't bring up the term "self consciousness" and don't really know what is meant by this by spectrum.
You are correct in that fear is one of the primary motivators but there are others. I have developed my own thesis on the evolution/sublimation of more basic instincts into human emotion and motivation that has a more complex form. I've posted this years ago but will attempt to explain it again to see if you find it compelling or not.

But first I'll put in some background in regards to the four main philosopher/psychologists who contributed to the "will to" motivation concepts. Not sure which order these came about but we have Freud and his pain/pleasure principal which goes along somewhat with Spectrum's sex notion. Freud theorized human motivation was based on the "will to pleasure". Then we have Nietzsche who believed that the "will to power" was the driving force behind our true nature, that we get an extra thrill through power and dominance that is stronger than the impulse to life or as Schopenhauer would put it, the "will to live". Then finally we have Victor Frankl who postulated man's search for meaning so it's the "will to meaning" that is primary and stronger than just simply the will to live.

I happen to think they are all correct in some sense. I don't view these as actually separate theories or explanations.

Let me start with an illustration which represents my thesis for the most part. I will explain my use of the term sublimation through this illustration: We shall start with a single minded force and it's action upon some object. In this case let's take gravity and it's affect on water. Imaging a great spring at the very top of a very sharp peak thousands of feet in the air. As the water emerges gravity acts upon the water and pulls it straight down for some distance in a single coherent stream with a clearly recognizable direction. All the energy on display appears single minded and one dimensional. As the water hits the first obstacle it splits in two directions but in general is still heading down and the now two separate streams are still easily recognized as being related and indeed having the same source. As the water flows down hitting many obstacles, unevenly spaced, piles or gravel, patches of sand splitting literally into an infinite number of individual pathways wrapping around the mountain as it descends, the underlying force still being recognized as gravity but with the multitude of different streams some larger with more energy, some with very gentle pathways meandering down, you end up with flows of water that have very different characteristics and yet the basic impulse remains the same. This is not the typical use of the word sublimation but it's what I use to describe the change in character of the flow of water in this example. It's not a perfect analogy by any means but it get's at how I think the impulse to life itself might become sublimated into what appear to very complex motivations. Obstacles in this example are things that appear to alter the character of the underlying impulse and yet you can see the underlying impulse or archetypal impulse underneath.

Now take an instinct like the urge or impulse to live and add consciousness into the mix. Suddenly I can consciously adjust or alter the character of impulse to live by a thought process like this: How do I continue to live?...I can't I'm human, I must identify with something that appears eternal? I will work to ensure the human species survives as long as it can thus satisfying my own impulse to live albeit incompletely .

So the underlying motivation was altered in a specific way by this particular mind. Fear is actually a substituent of the impulse to live. Then fear continues to create more complex systems of thought and expression as it's subtly affected by the human environment or condition. I could have said in response to Spectrum that religion comes from the impulse to live and that too would be accurate in my opinion....but the reason I go farther down the path and implicate fear is that religion seems to alleviate anxiety about death so specifically. It also addresses the "will to live" by promising eternity but it clearly operates at the level of the "will to power" and the avoidance of fear. In addition consciousness itself leads to the cognitive dissonance you've heard about which is the main object that causes the sublimation of fear out of the impulse to live. Because of this fact, both the "fear" of not living (death) and the "desire" to live forever are components of all subsequent complexes. Thus the Buddhist notion of the dualistic pair, fear/desire as the primary human condition is supportable in this model.

There is no clearly right or wrong answer to this line of reasoning, the point is to try and understand what leads to complex human behaviors that cause such destructive outcomes so as to understand how to circumvent them whilst still satisfying the impulse that's responsible for them in the first place.

I probably could do a better job with this but maybe you can still get what I'm trying to say.

-- Updated June 12th, 2017, 2:14 pm to add the following --

Here's an addition...think of the impulse to life as the unified stream which hit's the first obstacle or refractory point, the tree in the garden if you will, the tree of the knowledge of the pairs of opposites or the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of Eden.....the first obstacle is the birth of consciousness which is represented metaphorically by that "tree in the garden"....and it yields pairs of opposites....in this case conscious self awareness sublimates the impulse to life into "Fear" and "Desire" as described above. As I hope I stated above there is clearly a desire aspect to religions but the fear component I would argue (without doing the research) seems where most of the destructive aspects of religion lie. Although desire may be sublimated into the will to power and domination so maybe I'd have to rethink which aspect of the two is the most harmful or the most compelling? I would appreciate thoughts on this from either of you

-- Updated June 12th, 2017, 2:33 pm to add the following --
A question I have been asking myself a lot lately is how to engage in a rational discussion with someone who is irrational (I am thinking of religious people at the high end of the scale, because there are plenty of religious people schooled in natural sciences and able to rationalize.)
We have a great mutual interest here...the problem isn't limited to religious folks either, this is such a huge problem in politics and across the spectrum (not a reference to Mr. Spectrum LOL) of human endeavor. It goes hand in hand with another problem which is how to we identify valid and trustworthy information verses the fake news and all manner of bad information at our fingertips! Even what appears to be valid science often ends up to be good empirical data followed by very dubious conclusions. The extent of trouble these two realms of human behavior can inflict upon our ability to remain viable as a species cannot be overstated!

So how we can meet in the middle and exchange useful information starts with genuine honesty and commitment to sound scientific principles at all cost. Without this commitment we will fall back on the all too mysteriously complex motivations generated by our enormously complex brains.
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Spectrum »

Burning ghost wrote:How can I snigger at something I have not seen? I am remarking more about how you have an agenda which makes sense if presented. I came to this thread by way of taking a broad view of religion. If you are setting out to reveal the evils of Islam then you are not coming at religion without bias.
..
I am happy to read your thesis and give feedback if you wish. If not that is fine. It was a genuine offer not a joke.
I don't have a readable draft of my thesis yet.

I did not mean you sniggered at my main thesis but rather the sub-theses, i.e. basic premises that will support my main thesis.
Earlier you were not convinced and countered sarcastically how eating chocolates,
"listen to music, or partake in some activity willingly in order to experience pleasure has anything to do with fear of immature death and survival"
could linked with fear of the threat of premature death and survival.
I have explained, I wondered you have seen the light on this?

My thesis [sub] is the Main Springs of all human activities are
(1) sex - reproduction
(2) fear of premature death
supporting the Mother of All springs,
(A) Survival at all costs.

There are side springs that push humans to deviate from the above.

-- Updated Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:45 pm to add the following --

@Philosch
Philosch wrote:As I hope I stated above there is clearly a desire aspect to religions but the fear component I would argue (without doing the research) seems where most of the destructive aspects of religion lie. Although desire may be sublimated into the will to power and domination so maybe I'd have to rethink which aspect of the two is the most harmful or the most compelling? I would appreciate thoughts on this from either of you
It is the fear of premature death and mortality that activate one to desire religion, from religion other desires [religious based] are created. From, desire with ignorance there is desperate clinging that contribute to the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME believers who are evil prone.

The other main drive is sex [reproduction of the next generation] but this is secondary to fear of premature death, i.e if a person is dead, s/he cannot have sex to reproduce naturally. I think it is evident the awareness of any threat of premature death, the first action re sex is 'limpness' as the body divert the whole system and resources to prepare for fight or flight to avoid premature [unnatural, untimely] death.

A review into the doctrines of all religions will review the fundamental is that of Soteriology in one form or another. Even in Buddhism the central theme is from the Buddha Story as reflected by the threat of a corpse [death].
I mentioned Kierkegaad -the father of existentialism;
Wiki wrote:Fear and Trembling is a philosophical work by Søren Kierkegaard, published in 1843 under the pseudonym Johannes de silentio (John of the Silence). The title is a reference to a line from Philippians 2:12, "...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling." — itself a probable reference to Psalms 55:5,[1] "Fear and trembling came upon me..." (the Greek is identical).

Kierkegaard wanted to understand the anxiety[2] that must have been present in Abraham when "God tested [him] and said to him, take Isaac, your only son, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah and offer him as a burnt offering on the mountain that I shall show you."
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Re: "Fear of Death" a Primary Motivator of Religions?

Post by Sy Borg »

Spectrum wrote:I believe 'fear of death' in combination with self-consciousness is the primary cause of ...
... almost everything that we do, with religion being no exception.

We are driven by the need to survive because those most motivated to live turned out to be the ones to survive the best and pass on their vitaphilic ways.
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Meditations

Meditations
by Marcus Aurelius
March 2024

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

The In-Between: Life in the Micro

The In-Between: Life in the Micro
by Christian Espinosa
January 2024

2023 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021