So you're an atheist? Not so fast.

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Count Lucanor
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Re: So you're an atheist? Not so fast.

Post by Count Lucanor »

Ranvier wrote:
Count Lucanor wrote:Ranvier,
"...atheists have an explanation of their existence, therefore their path is well illuminated".
Why did you edit the quote to erase the part where it states that these are assertions that came from yourself? Let's restore the quote as originally stated:
Count Lucanor wrote: By your own admission, atheists have an explanation of their existence, therefore their path is well illuminated.
Ranvier wrote: What is the atheist "explanation" that illuminates their path for the future?
You said it yourself, remember?:
Ranvier wrote:
a "random" accidental emergence of life.


Ranvier wrote: Yes, try to make the "road" walking off from the roof top... In your mind, Don't actually do it!
I don't see what's the point. How this relates to people finding a purpose in life?
Ranvier wrote: "Life is a journey..." - I'll await your atheist "explanation" of the "path", otherwise the journey will be short in "walking off from the rooftop", evident by the atrocities of the 20th century.
Again, what's the point? If you have an argument, what is it? And what's up with the atrocities of the 20th century?
Ranvier wrote: "...good one." - what does it mean? What is a "good life's journey"? What is "good" in this instance? Is "good" only something that allows to continue the journey, such as Not "walking off from the rooftop"? But most of all: "What is a rational for the purpose of journey"?
I already answered most of these questions. When are you going to answer the pending questions? May I remind you:

What would be the reason and purpose that explain the emergence of a divine consciousness?
Why is it more rational not to end this life and arrive immediately to the end purpose?
If the outcome of a dice thrown in the air is not predetermined, fixed, then for you it does not follow any physical laws?
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
Spectrum
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Re: So you're an atheist? Not so fast.

Post by Spectrum »

Dark Matter,

Earlier I argued how your idea of God or Absolute is due to deceptive arguments, i.e. fallacy of equivocation. This is explained in Kant's point;
Kant wrote:There will therefore be Syllogisms which contain no Empirical premisses, and by means of which we conclude from something which we know to something else of which we have no Concept, and to which, owing to an inevitable Illusion, we yet ascribe Objective Reality.
Your bad argument is as follows;
1. Empirically X exists [proven by Science or otherwise]
2. God [non-empirical] has X features. [by correlation]
3. Therefore God [non-empirical] exists [objectively real]
According to Kant, God is not a concept, because whatever is conceptual must have an empirical base to start with. To Kant, God is an "idea" i.e. a thought without any empirical base.
Kant wrote:Such a fallacy is therefore grounded in the Nature of Human Reason, and gives rise to an Illusion which cannot be avoided, although it may, indeed, be rendered harmless. A341
Kant did not explain why this fallacy cannot be avoided [even the wisest are deceived], and I have explained it is because there is a psychological and existential need to cling to such an illusion.
Thus when one turn toward the psychological to find solutions [e.g. Buddhism and other sophisticated philosophies] such an illusion can be rendered harmless, prevent genocides & violence at the extreme of believing in such an illusion [God, Allah,].
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Count Lucanor
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Re: So you're an atheist? Not so fast.

Post by Count Lucanor »

Steve3007 wrote:
I'm not sure which open system you have in mind here.
I don't mean it exclusively, but living systems are a typical example of an open system. Not only the amount of interactions make them unpredictable, but the development of new sets of possible interactions multiplies that indeterminacy exponentially.
Steve3007 wrote:I would tend to class the Universe as a whole as, by definition, a closed system with respect to the laws that describe it. And I would say that any complex system can be effectively undetermined while still being describable with what we often refer to as deterministic laws. (What I've characterised here as classical, Newtonian physics.) The classic example being the Earth's weather systems.

I think the whole question of what exactly it means for a system to be determined is an interesting one in itself. Even if we neglect the fundamental randomness of QM, for all practical purposes, we arguably still don't get a determined system, because of effects that are normally placed under the heading of "Chaos Theory". That is, sensitive dependence on initial conditions.
I agree. And I repeat myself: indeterminacy does not mean unlawfulness. The particular instances of events will be always sensitive to sets of multiple conditions, not all measurable to the same extent. That's why physical science works with "controlled conditions", effectively eliminating some factors, to understand how others affect the outcomes and then infer general, universal laws about them. These regularities don't contradict the indeterminacy of the particular conditions combined in an event. So, the laws of movement apply as universal laws, even though some other factors are to be taken into account to explain the actual results.

-- Updated September 20th, 2017, 11:01 pm to add the following --
Dark Matter wrote:
Life is a journey and the most rational thing to do is to make it a good one.
Sounds to me the Count is advocating hedonism.
"Good" means only good, not necessarily pleasure.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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Ranvier
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Re: So you're an atheist? Not so fast.

Post by Ranvier »

Count Lucanor

No. You actually haven't said anything of substance in respect to atheism or "answered any questions". As I said before, this debate is not going anywhere because I can't "squeeze" any information out of you. I had to even suggest the perspective of "confused" people, which later you ascribed as my admission to the claim.

Count Lucanor wrote:
"By your own admission, atheists have an explanation of their existence, therefore their path is well illuminated".
Any village "idiot" can say that everything is random and without any purpose, which is not an explanation for anything, which you submit in this quote:
"a "random" accidental emergence of life", as "atheists have an explanation of their existence, therefore their path is well illuminated".

These seem to be the mental mechanisms of "confused" people indicated in this quote:
"I don't see what's the point. How this relates to people finding a purpose in life?"
The above is an interesting question, since there is no purpose according to the atheist world view. Followed by confusion with what I said evident by the last sentence:
"If the outcome of a dice thrown in the air is not predetermined, fixed, then for you it does not follow any physical laws?"
It's interesting to contemplate how you arrived to such a sentence...

As for the other two questions, there are platy of threads on theism, where you should direct such questions.
Spectrum
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Re: So you're an atheist? Not so fast.

Post by Spectrum »

Life is a journey and the most rational thing to do is to make it a good one.
Dark Matter wrote:
Sounds to me the Count is advocating hedonism.
In the above case, you seem to think only of the negative and never the possibility of the positive.

Are you implying moral good can only come from an Absolute, i.e. God.
The main 'God given fixed [immutable] absolute theistic moral rules' are from the Abrahamic God and they all come along with evil laden elements. At the extreme Islamic morals include Allah sanctioning Muslims to kill non-Muslims under various conditions and this is glaringly evident.

The secular without any God is capable advancing continuous improving moral standards.
Humans are capable of non-existent ideals, like an illusory God.
As such humans are also capable of generating ideal moral standards as guides [non-enforceable] to strive for.

Thus it is humans [secular] who has room and potential to strive towards the highest good whilst guided by ideals of absolute goodness.

Your theistic morality if any by an Absolute is immutable, dogmatic and stuck with fixed low grade moral standards for eternity. This is evident from the morality of the Abrahamic religions.
Note Pantheists and panentheistic ideologies do not recommend God commanded morality.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Dark Matter
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Re: So you're an atheist? Not so fast.

Post by Dark Matter »

Count Lucanor wrote:
"Good" means only good, not necessarily pleasure.[/quote]
"Good" implies an absolute against which it can be measured; "Good means only good" is meaningless.

-- Updated September 21st, 2017, 12:48 am to add the following --
Spectrum wrote: In the above case, you seem to think only of the negative and never the possibility of the positive.
Measured against what?

-- Updated September 21st, 2017, 1:16 am to add the following --

If you start with beliefs that are known to you (e.g., good exists) and then work backwards to find the underlying truths those beliefs are built on, you will be led to the discovery of an absolute, indefinite though it may be. Few people have the tenacity or insight for such a feat.
Steve3007
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Re: So you're an atheist? Not so fast.

Post by Steve3007 »

Ranvier to CL:
The above is an interesting question, since there is no purpose according to the atheist world view.
Translating the above statement into your "journey to the Post Office" analogy, expanded in post #259:


Where are you going?

I'm going to my own personal house.

You're lying. You don't believe in houses.

Yes. I do. Why would I be saying I'm going to my own personal house if I didn't believe in houses?

Atheists don't believe in houses. You don't know where you're going.
What is a "good life's journey"? What is "good" in this instance?
It's raising my children, learning and creating. But that's just me. That's my personal taste. Different people have different purposes in life. It takes all sorts to make a world.

In your view, Ranvier, what constitutes a "good life journey"? Can you show that your definition of a good life journey is more than the irreducible "taste" of a conscious being or the result of a majority vote?

Dark Matter:
"Good" implies an absolute against which it can be measured; "Good means only good" is meaningless.
OK, so this is a straightforward discussion about moral relativism versus moral absolutism - a discussion that's been had many times before here and elsewhere.

The absolutists question to the relativist: How can you assert that your moral values are any better than anyone else's when you have no absolute, immobile standard to which you can anchor them?

The relativist's answer: I don't assert this. My moral values are my opinions. I compare them with those of others. If we appear to disagree, then we examine whether, on closer inspection, we agree on a deeper level but are just disagreeing about facts. We create societies that form a consensus on the questions of right and wrong (aka laws). In short, we debate.

For sure, there are many interesting problems and issues with moral questions that can be explored. But those issues do not go away by simply proposing that my morals are underwritten by the moral views of another being and that I and my gang can tell you what that other being says. History and current affairs show that if one group says to another group "I am right and you are wrong because God says so" it doesn't seem to settle the matter!
Dark Matter
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Re: So you're an atheist? Not so fast.

Post by Dark Matter »

Steve3007 wrote:
Dark Matter:
"Good" implies an absolute against which it can be measured; "Good means only good" is meaningless.
OK, so this is a straightforward discussion about moral relativism versus moral absolutism - a discussion that's been had many times before here and elsewhere.

The absolutists question to the relativist: How can you assert that your moral values are any better than anyone else's when you have no absolute, immobile standard to which you can anchor them?

The relativist's answer: I don't assert this. My moral values are my opinions. I compare them with those of others. If we appear to disagree, then we examine whether, on closer inspection, we agree on a deeper level but are just disagreeing about facts. We create societies that form a consensus on the questions of right and wrong (aka laws). In short, we debate.

For sure, there are many interesting problems and issues with moral questions that can be explored. But those issues do not go away by simply proposing that my morals are underwritten by the moral views of another being and that I and my gang can tell you what that other being says. History and current affairs show that if one group says to another group "I am right and you are wrong because God says so" it doesn't seem to settle the matter!
Non sequitur due to selective reading of post (s).
Steve3007
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Re: So you're an atheist? Not so fast.

Post by Steve3007 »

DM:

Which part of the post of mine that you instantly block-quoted (presumably without reading) is the non sequitur? If me saying "this is a moral relativism versus moral absolutism" is a complete non sequitur, then what is the debate about? Is it more of a non sequitur than your earlier observation that atheists confuse the colours of fabrics like cotton with the colour of skin?

I propose that your one line post is simply a lazy dismissal, Dark Matter. Is this really how you go about discussing these things?
Dark Matter
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Re: So you're an atheist? Not so fast.

Post by Dark Matter »

I'm just tired of repeating myself.
Steve3007
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Re: So you're an atheist? Not so fast.

Post by Steve3007 »

DM:

So when you said my post was a non sequitur, what you meant to say was that the old debate between moral absolutists and moral relativists is one that you've been through before and you don't want to repeat.

OK. Understood.
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Ranvier
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Re: So you're an atheist? Not so fast.

Post by Ranvier »

Dark Matter wrote: Non sequitur due to selective reading of post (s).
This is the question... How does one debate with people that can't interpret the "meaning" of what you say, to debate the universe of "subjective reality"?
Steve3007
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Re: So you're an atheist? Not so fast.

Post by Steve3007 »

Ranvier.

Do you regard this kind of discussion as akin to a football match? It's just that you seem to spend a lot of time patting people that you seem to regard as your team-mates on the back. Why not say something substantive to a specific person (not to a general group) with whom you disagree?

Do you agree that this is a discussion which at least touches on the old debate between moral absolutism and moral relativism? Yes or no will do.
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Ranvier
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Re: So you're an atheist? Not so fast.

Post by Ranvier »

Steve3007

We already engaged in a "football" match on several occasions, where we apparently "play" a different game. I'm not interested in playing your "games" on the field you perceive as a zoo, where the game is to be "patting" people for fun. As far as I'm concerned, I have no problem with you "going to your personal home".
Steve3007
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Re: So you're an atheist? Not so fast.

Post by Steve3007 »

Ranvier:
I'm not interested in playing your "games" on the field you perceive as a zoo, where the game is to be "patting" people for fun.
I don't know about you, but my main aim here is simply to discuss interesting philosophical ideas with people from various parts of the world. Not to compete with them, but in the hope of mutually learning something. It's also to learn something about how other people think, whether it's different from the way that I think and, if so, is there a reason why? I think that's also a good way to critically examine both the way I think and how effectively I communicate. As I said to another poster recently:

Tamminen:
How different our minds can be!
Steve3007:
Amen to that! Vive la différence!
onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/viewtop ... 23#p295423

But of course, human nature being what it is, we all find it difficult not to occasionally see these discussions as some kind of competition, in which we join a team and insult the "enemy" with childish content-free put-downs, or don't address people directly but make side-comments to our "friend". I don't if I've done the latter before, but I've certainly done the former. I think the challenge is to try to control that urge as much as possible and examine both sides of an argument.
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