Why do people pray for others?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Ranvier
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Why do people pray for others?

Post by Ranvier »

This is presumably a very simple question but I'm yet to find a good answer. The only logical conclusion is that people pray out of selfishness to feel better, without doing much else themselves. After all, it's not as if God needs human prayers to do that which we can't possibly comprehend as right. Is all of this prayer nothing but a self delusion? I can walk into any church or house of prayer and walk out after an hour or so, just to be enhanced by my own thoughts to God so I don't feel insane in talking to myself. Other than that, no one will even say hello or give a second thought to my existence after everyone departs to their lives. On the contrary, they will all resume in their meaningless agendas to make this place a wonderful environment for future generations.

Any other thoughts on reasons for prayers? Otherwise I can remain to pray from home :)
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

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"When I was back there in seminary school... there was a person there who put forth the proposition, that you can petition the Lord with Prayer. Petition the Lord with prayer... Petition the Lord with Prayer??? YOU CAN NOT PETITION THE LORD WITH PRAYER!!"

-- Jim Morrison, of the Doors, cca 1970, on their to him posthumous record "Live -- In concert".

I'm getting to understand your views better and better, I think, Ranvier. At first I thought you were bitter about atheists, scientists and their art; I thought your skepticism in calling their works "illusionary hocus-pocus" (you did not use these words), was restricted to materialist thinking and thinkers.

Now I see that you are the same way disillusioned with the illusions your spiritual background has provided you with.

Yeah, it's tough out there. That's why I have resigned to basically philosophy and masturbating. A lot of other people do philosophy and drugs, or ph and alcohol, or ph and work.

Life is not at all what it's cracked up to be by our educators in our childrenhoods. They fed us with rounded story lines in books and plays in English Lit and told us that this is life.

Like hell it is.

Life is a long, drawn-out bowel movement, with the occasional strawberries, cherries and whipped cream mixed in. Whether the meat of life is illusion or not, is not even a matter of consideration. Knowing precisely whether I'm bored and disillusioned because of an illusion or because of reality, makes little difference in my boredom.
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Ranvier
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

Post by Ranvier »

:) Thank you -1-
I was sure that a theist would jump in first to bring light on the matter. I'm getting to know your mind as well. Obviously, or at least I'm under such impression, we all search for the "right" path in life even those that pretend not to need any answers. I just don't like hypocrisy of any creed, whether it be from theists or atheists. At times I feel as if I'm surrounded by sadists on one side and masochists on the other, I just crave for "normal".

-- Updated July 27th, 2017, 4:04 pm to add the following --

I can rationalize most religious premises but I'm stuck on the prayer, it seems illogical.
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

Post by Supine »

Ranvier wrote:This is presumably a very simple question but I'm yet to find a good answer. The only logical conclusion is that people pray out of selfishness to feel better, without doing much else themselves. After all, it's not as if God needs human prayers to do that which we can't possibly comprehend as right.
What makes you think prayer for another person is only and always motivated out of the desire of person doing the prayer (praying for another) to feel better?

I've prayed for people I've hated that have done wrong to me that God forgive them for any offense they did to both him and myself. Murdering these people, decapitating their heads, rolling their decapitated heads down the street and sending their offspring into poverty, misery, and prostitution would have made me feel better.

I might also pray for those that I don't hate but feel no right to directly intervene or meddle in their private lives. I pray for the eternal salvation of the souls of certain people I care about.


Image

http://usccb.org/bible/john/2/

The Wedding at Cana.

1* On the third day there was a wedding* in Cana* in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.a

2 Jesus and his disciples were also invited to the wedding.

3 When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”

4* [And] Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.”b

5 His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.”c

6* Now there were six stone water jars there for Jewish ceremonial washings,d each holding twenty to thirty gallons.

7 Jesus told them, “Fill the jars with water.” So they filled them to the brim.
The motive of prayers offered for others is to move, persuade, God by our petitions for others. Not unlike a defense attorney or loved ones making requests in a US Court to a judge on behalf of defendant found guilty about to be sentenced by said judge. Sure, the judge can make any ruling he wants without hearing from either loved ones on either side of the case or without hearing from the prosecutor or the defense attorney.

Satan--by ways of the Christian tradition--is also called, "The Accuser," because he accuses others (human souls) before God. Like a prosecutor in a courtroom, and our Guardian Angel can act as our defense attorney. And all the prayers from 1, 2, 800, 600 million, or 1 billion people can potentially impact God through his divine mercy and mercy/charity for the emotions of those doing the praying for that one soul. Ergo, the message of Fatima to pray for sinners. Ergo, one of the functions of Christian monastics: their personal sacrifices and prayers are offered up on behalf of a sinful world.

-- Updated July 27th, 2017, 3:37 pm to add the following --

GK Chesterton was a Christian (Catholic) novelist. He was something of a Christian philosopher too. But he wrote during a period when Christian literature was arguably of far higher quality, philosophically deeper, than it is today. A lot (perhaps not all) of popular Christian literature today is of the "Self Help" variety or "How to be happier" kind of genre.
Published on Jul 7, 2013

Todays quote is from G.K. Chesterton, the popular English writer who was known as the "prince of paradox."
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Ranvier
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

Post by Ranvier »

I hear you Supine, and I appreciate your perspective. This is the most common interpretation as God acting as the Judge but the judgement is supposed to take place at some unspecified time of the future judgement day. Shouldn't prayers wait until the court is in session? Moreover, introverts and people without many friends requests on the social media or small circle of family would be in much disadvantage without the wealth of popular prayer. Doesn't seem fair and quite illogical for God to operate in such a way. In addition, wouldn't then be more logical for religious routine of kneeling and standing up on commend like mindless sheep to be replaced by more interactive discussion group or dinner, where people could actually build such a faith prayer base?

-- Updated July 27th, 2017, 6:10 pm to add the following --

It all seems very proverbial and human in interpretation.

-- Updated July 27th, 2017, 6:19 pm to add the following --
Supine wrote:
I've prayed for people I've hated that have done wrong to me that God forgive them for any offense they did to both him and myself. Murdering these people, decapitating their heads, rolling their decapitated heads down the street and sending their offspring into poverty, misery, and prostitution would have made me feel better.
I will pray for that this wouldn't be true of you.
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

Post by -1- »

Ranvier wrote::) Thank you -1- At times I feel as if I'm surrounded by sadists on one side and masochists on the other, I just crave for "normal".
Suddenly, the meaning of the line in a Bob Dylan lyric comes to focus: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I am stuck in the middle with you!"

Then bang, the "you" gets yanked out of there, happened twice in my life, it gets pretty sad then.

-- Updated 2017 July 27th, 7:47 pm to add the following --

Prayer may be the pre-trial. A lot of discussions, examining and weighing the evidence, scrutinizing witness testimonies and x examining witnesses, checking facts, precedence, case books, interpretations, and the Law itself gets done in pre-trial. Most of the stuff gets sorted out so the case does not need to be heard by a judge, much similar to what the logical positivists had hoped for in their creating the "great encyclopedia".

Prayer may be the pre-trial bribery offered by interested parties.

I called it bribery, because you want to sway a judgment by appealing to the ego and the vanity of the judge. And most prayers -- let's be fair -- are unfair; they ask for forgiveness for the sinner (**** on the victim), or for unearned favours (**** on the most qualified candidate).

I don't believe in god, but I can't imagine that one that existed would be so stupid as to be swayed by prayer. Much like you watch these soccer games, and when the ball leaves the sidelines, then the players of both teams raise their arms to indicate it's their turn to throw in the ball. Has it occurred to them, ever, that no referee has ever listened to the players to make a judgment call? What the heck are they trying to prove? Same with prayer. You want to get special favours for nothing, for a few kind words. Well, words don't cut the mustard, and if you think your god is so stupid(*) and gullible as to take your pleas seriously, then i am sorry for the credit you give your own god.
(*) no disrespect meant; the adjective is used with full vigour and without emotional or social derogatory connotation.
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

Post by Ranvier »

That was my general sentiment as well. Prayer seems to be a process of conscious coping mechanism in traversing through six stages of grieving. However, are there people for whom it may be more than that? As in subconscious or even conscious remodeling of brain neurons that affects personality and perception of reality, in which case it might be worth of further investigation.

-- Updated July 27th, 2017, 8:11 pm to add the following --

Perhaps the prolonged mediation or prayer indeed may offer a tangible benefit in coping with stress and hence provides clarity of thought and intent.
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

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Ranvier wrote:That was my general sentiment as well. Prayer seems to be a process of conscious coping mechanism in traversing through six stages of grieving. However, are there people for whom it may be more than that? As in subconscious or even conscious remodeling of brain neurons that affects personality and perception of reality, in which case it might be worth of further investigation.

-- Updated July 27th, 2017, 8:11 pm to add the following --

Perhaps the prolonged mediation or prayer indeed may offer a tangible benefit in coping with stress and hence provides clarity of thought and intent.
I've prayed before, and my prayers always had a very strong undertone of superstition. I want that, I prayed, please let me have it. Or please, make the teacher not call me to report on the topic.

Because I'm not religious, the meditative aspect completely escaped me, but it makes sense.

Perhaps those who pray to convince god of anything, or to communicate, should do it in a manner that is not selfish, so it wouldn't destroy the compliment-effect or the gratitude effect, but still stay honest and sincere. Maybe prayer should be restricted to assure the almighty, instead of appease him. "I love you, god, and I adore you; this here without a view on the need of compliments to a very happy afterlife"
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

Post by Ranvier »

Very interesting choice of words, great insight. I never had any problem in perceiving...perspicuity of deep thought that was always right there if only to focus my mind. Words do no justice but it's a one level higher version of a conscious thought that is mine but in a relationship of gratitude of heaving it with me. But it was never a tool that would affect any outcome pertaining to others.
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

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Ranvier wrote:Very interesting choice of words, great insight. I never had any problem in perceiving...perspicuity of deep thought that was always right there if only to focus my mind. Words do no justice but it's a one level higher version of a conscious thought that is mine but in a relationship of gratitude of heaving it with me. But it was never a tool that would affect any outcome pertaining to others.
Oh, shoot. You did say "what's the point of praying for OTHERS". I forgot that by the time I got to my previous post. Sorry.

There is no depth or mysteriously profound meaning. There is only my forgetfulness.
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

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Nah, I'm sure there is more than forgetfulness. You wouldn't be on philosophy of religion forum otherwise :)
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

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Grrrr... don't rub it in. My post there that you continue to rave about made patently no sense vis-a-vis the original post.

You are a sly, likable, viciously cunning, good-humoured, cuttingly sarcastic, kind individual. Mmm-mm. Yummy brain-candy.
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

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Ranvier wrote:I hear you Supine, and I appreciate your perspective. This is the most common interpretation as God acting as the Judge but the judgement is supposed to take place at some unspecified time of the future judgement day. Shouldn't prayers wait until the court is in session?
I was reared Catholic--from the cradle. But I am looking to join one of the ethnic Eastern or Oriental Orthodox Churches. The Orthodox do not separate sins into "venial" and "mortal" as Catholics do. The Orthodox are catholics, too, with the small "c" and of course the capital "C" denoting those of the Catholic Church who are in union with the Bishop of Rome (aka The Pope). But I bring this up to address your question as it is pertinent.

Do you know what the basic difference between a "venial" sin and "mortal" sin is?

The important difference is this: if you drop dead right when you are in a state of venial sin you may still go to heaven. If you drop dead while in a state of mortal sin you may well go straight to hell. Some may get sent to purgatory according to Catholics but purgatory always ends in going to heaven.

But the important thing is this: Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox all believe in death, judgement, heaven, and hell. Basically that after death the soul will ultimately go to either heaven or hell.

Once in hell the belief is that one will be there for all eternity.
Moreover, introverts and people without many friends requests on the social media or small circle of family would be in much disadvantage without the wealth of popular prayer. Doesn't seem fair and quite illogical for God to operate in such a way.
Yeah, you are correct about that disadvantage, and Orthodoxy and Catholicism has long been aware of that. Neither Orthodoxy or Catholicism subscribe to a view of life on earth--or in heaven--as being "fair" in which all are equal. Biological evolution on earth is not a concept of "fairness" in which all is equal too.

In general, I believe the position of Orthodoxy and Catholicism as well as Protestantism is that if one lives and does not or rarely sins (but repents too) then overtime God will answer their petinonary prayer in some manner. In general. Orthodoxy and Catholicism I think also propose that God may ask a person to carry a life long sacrifice (cross of sorts) even if they wish and pray otherwise.

The Protestants that preach "Prosperity Gospel" are another matter.
In addition, wouldn't then be more logical for religious routine of kneeling and standing up on commend like mindless sheep to be replaced by more interactive discussion group or dinner, where people could actually build such a faith prayer base?
Well I was talking about prayers for others in one's own private life. Like in their bedroom at night before they lay to go to bed.

For Orthodoxy and Catholicism we are talking liturgies in there Mass which is theologically rooted in Old Testament sacrificial offerings of animals. In this case the sacrificial offering of the Lamb Jesus. Or as Catholicism believes it and describes it at the point of the "sacrifice of the Mass" time collapses to the exact point Jesus is on the Cross at Calvary. So, they can't transform into the route you are speaking about.

Some Orthodox Churches actually stand the entire Mass. I think but I am not certain that the Russian Orthodox stand the entire time. See video below. (The Russians have view of themselves as "Holy Rus" and a people with a mission akin to ancient Israelite, and therefore are obligated to live rough and persecuted if need be, and that might help understand some of the comments in the video.)

-- Updated July 27th, 2017, 10:08 pm to add the following --
-1- wrote:Because I'm not religious, the meditative aspect completely escaped me, but it makes sense.

Perhaps those who pray to convince god of anything, or to communicate, should do it in a manner that is not selfish, so it wouldn't destroy the compliment-effect or the gratitude effect, but still stay honest and sincere. Maybe prayer should be restricted to assure the almighty, instead of appease him. "I love you, god, and I adore you; this here without a view on the need of compliments to a very happy afterlife"
The Rosary is actually a meditation. I know most people don't realize that. I used to pray it--before the Luminous Mysteries were added by Pope John Paul II--and it's an exercise I will say. Each scene meditated on in a mystery actually has a "virtue" to also be mindful off. I don't remember them except for one. The scene of Jesus carrying the cross in the Sorrowful Mysteries. The virtue to be mindful during that scene when praying is "patience."

Image


And the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox have a meditative mantra prayer that all Orthodox Christians recite in their lives. It's called the "Jesus Prayer." It's short and simple. But if one actually does it with more "rigor" it can be an exercise too. Because you can choose to fix your gaze on your navel or on your heart and recite the mantra to a pattern of your breath. Or you can do it will less rigor and just recite it quietly or in your mind as you do daily things.

Some Orthodox monks say after years of doing the prayer their hearts actually beat the prayer, that their minds automatically recite the prayer, some say they even end up reciting the prayer all through their sleep.
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

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Supine wrote: Some Orthodox monks say after years of doing the prayer their hearts actually beat the prayer, that their minds automatically recite the prayer, some say they even end up reciting the prayer all through their sleep.
There was some scientific proof of this. The scientists could not possibly just ask the monks what they were saying in their dreams, because they were asleep. (The scientists.) Instead, they took sleeping monks, and they shone some bright lights at their heads, that were so bright, that they penetrated the skull and showed their brain in sleep state. There it was, their brains, visibly reciting the prayer while they were asleep.

Compare this to me, who can't meditate even for a second. I can't shut down my mind in my conscious state. And I don't want to, either. I don't envy those who meditate. I leave them to envy me.
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

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To be cowards or to overcome cowardice. The later seems like the more productive form of prayer.

It is essentially a subtle form of meditation.
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