Why do people pray for others?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Steve3007
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

Post by Steve3007 »

I have no religious beliefs but I sometimes do things that are pretty similar to praying for other people.

I don't think it's a selfish act, unless we take the view that all acts can ultimately be characterised as selfish, which seems to me a bit too similar to solipsism. I think it's simply a way of thinking about people and hoping for their well-being.
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

Post by -1- »

Steve3007 wrote:I have no religious beliefs but I sometimes do things that are pretty similar to praying for other people.

I don't think it's a selfish act, unless we take the view that all acts can ultimately be characterised as selfish, which seems to me a bit too similar to solipsism. I think it's simply a way of thinking about people and hoping for their well-being.
everything is selfish
it is impossible to tell the real from the illusionary
whatever you feel is important, crucially important, will be completely passe for you in two hundred years from now
what is nothing
How can an otherwise infinitely large universe keep on expanding
God etc
No god etc
[sic]

these are things that make an otherwise enthusiastic philosopher flaccid.

But wait! there are things that will generate a sparky debate any time:

- evolution, mechanism of
- dawkins' dawdings
- dings, in general
- god
- no god
- BB
- conscience: what is it? How can we increase the size of our own?
- if God is good, why is He evil?
- bible interpretation
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Steve3007
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

Post by Steve3007 »

these are things that make an otherwise enthusiastic philosopher flaccid.
Speak for yourself. They make me positively tumescent.
But wait! there are things that will generate a sparky debate any time:...
Yes, those are also philosophically arousing.
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Ranvier
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

Post by Ranvier »

-1-
I'm humbled by your description of me. You have keen perception indicative of great mind that so easily decoded my intent only after few of my posts. I'm almost embarrassed how easily you saw through me. I knew there was much more to your beautiful mind than forgetfulness.

Supine
My original question was in hope to find a reasonable answer to prayer because I do find Christianity fascinating, with sentiment that religion is twisted by human mind in inaccurate interpretation. Over two thousand years later and people still don't understand Jesus's sacrifice or the meaning of the original sin.
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

Post by Fan of Science »

Jesus didn't even exist as a real historical person. Original sin is also a made-up fiction, which simply vulgarizes a Jewish story that had no such concept. It's also an immoral concept, which labels innocent people as guilty simply for being born. I really don't see anything morally redeeming about Christianity, although I do know many Christians whom I consider to be moral people, as individuals.
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Ranvier
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

Post by Ranvier »

Fan of Science wrote:Jesus didn't even exist as a real historical person. Original sin is also a made-up fiction, which simply vulgarizes a Jewish story that had no such concept. It's also an immoral concept, which labels innocent people as guilty simply for being born. I really don't see anything morally redeeming about Christianity, although I do know many Christians whom I consider to be moral people, as individuals.
You see, I follow my own logic because that is the only tool I have. Logically... and give it some thought, if over billion people believe that Jesus existed it's almost irrelevant if there actually was such person. It's a silly argument in proving religion invalid because we are godlike and we do create the reality. Similar argument is used by atheists using science to invalidate religion. God exists as long as there are humans...

Ask yourself, could you convince a bunch of people that you saw God? I can't even convince few people to come to a birthday party :)
It's not evidence but...the fact that there are billion people believing that there was such historical person is highly indicative that there actually was such individual, obviously far from accuracy of human description.

Then, ask yourself why would there be three major religions born in the same place? Jesus could had been born in any place on the planet. Why not South America or Australia?
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

Post by Supine »

-1- wrote:
Supine wrote: Some Orthodox monks say after years of doing the prayer their hearts actually beat the prayer, that their minds automatically recite the prayer, some say they even end up reciting the prayer all through their sleep.
There was some scientific proof of this. The scientists could not possibly just ask the monks what they were saying in their dreams, because they were asleep. (The scientists.) Instead, they took sleeping monks, and they shone some bright lights at their heads, that were so bright, that they penetrated the skull and showed their brain in sleep state. There it was, their brains, visibly reciting the prayer while they were asleep.

Compare this to me, who can't meditate even for a second. I can't shut down my mind in my conscious state. And I don't want to, either. I don't envy those who meditate. I leave them to envy me.

Well... irrespective of one's view about meditation, or actually a specific form of meditation called "mantra," I think all or most people into philosophy will accept the position that the brain and the mind are not one and the same. The brain itself is not even well understood (better than earlier centuries but still not well understood) let alone the non-physical mind.

Envy is one of the 7 Deadly Sins. Although what we term "envy" we today use interchangeably with "jealousy" but traditionally in Christianity the two were distinguished with jealousy in a person having the potential to eventually turn into envy of a person (desiring a loss in some good in the person, such as facial beauty, or a loss of status, reputation etc. So that one can "rise" above that person through their loss).

Jealousy on the other hand did not require a deep desire for the person another is jealous of to lose their good (e.g., beautiful singing voice, great job, nice house etc.) but rather that the jealous person simply excessively desired what that person had.

Christianity--at least traditional Christianity--has always believed one could fall into a form of pride some call Spiritual Pride. Pride being one of the 7 Deadly Sins too. So, this is a form or type of pride. And clergy or those laity that "pride" themselves on not being sinners or more spiritually advanced than others can be vulnerable to falling into this. There was good French movie about this theme set in the Middle Ages with a monk. It was a good movie just for ethical philosophy. With the ending leaving open the question did the protagonist (the monk) deceive and lie to the devil. Had to do with something the monk stated earlier in the movie. But it was a French movie so it had English subtitles.

Not sure what your issue with meditation is (I don't do much of it myself nor do I buy into much Buddhist beliefs about it) but maybe you and the Dali Lama can work that out at table over debate one day.

I also think there are very simple forms of meditation that are very "secular" for lack of a better word, and easy (unless one is in a state of rage or something), that every Joe and Jane can do. Like fishing in a relaxing setting, even washing and waxing your car on a sunny day, a stroll alone through a park or wooded trail.

Burning ghost wrote:To be cowards or to overcome cowardice. The later seems like the more productive form of prayer.

It is essentially a subtle form of meditation.
Which could be a mantra if one wanted to make it one.

Steve3007 wrote:Speak for yourself. They make me positively tumescent.
Okay, you literally just taught me a new word.

Ranvier wrote:Supine
My original question was in hope to find a reasonable answer to prayer because I do find Christianity fascinating, with sentiment that religion is twisted by human mind in inaccurate interpretation. Over two thousand years later and people still don't understand Jesus's sacrifice or the meaning of the original sin.
Well it might interest you that the Orthodox don't teach or subscribe to the Doctrine of Original Sin.

The Orthodox would claim that the Latins (aka Roman Catholics) *had to* come up with the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception to resolve the dilemma of the Holy Family with the Doctrine of Original Sin.

That debate does not interest me much because I'm a simpler person and have no desire to become a theologian. I just take Holy Mary in Orthodoxy and Catholicism pretty much the same. The title Immaculate Conception is no stumbling block for me. It might be if I was a theologian but fortunately I am not. The *substance* that honor is do to Holy Mary is what matters (to me or for me).

The Orthodox also have an intriguing conception of hell. Not entirely crazy either. Because just in practical life on earth, having periods of great depression, I *experienced* the sunlight, sunny days with blue skies much differently than those that were happy. The sun and sunny days was hell for me. Not joy. I wanted blinds or curtains closed and darkness, night.






Orthodox view of sin (seen as spiritual illness in need of *healing,* compared to Latin Catholic view derived pretty much from the Greek philosopher Plato were sin is the absence or degradation of a supreme good):




Orthodox explanation why they don't believe in Original Sin (takes her to about the 6:50 mark of the video to get to that, but to understand the connection to Mary and Jesus in her womb one must understand *typology* in the Bible and the "womb" the Ark of the Covenant that was *spotless* when it carried the Word of God):


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Ranvier
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

Post by Ranvier »

I realized early in my life that telling people something meets a high potential for rejection of what is being conveyed. Instead, I would rather ask what is possibly the original "sin" of a new born? Everything else should be irrelevant. My contention is that prayer could be somewhat sinful.
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

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Ranvier wrote:I realized early in my life that telling people something meets a high potential for rejection of what is being conveyed. Instead, I would rather ask what is possibly the original "sin" of a new born? Everything else should be irrelevant. My contention is that prayer could be somewhat sinful.
It's a skill to alter someone else's opinion by asking questions. I don't have that skill. I have a need to hammer in my opinion in a straightforward and possibly most comprehensible way.

What is the possible 'sin' of a new born? "It came from a putrid drop." Yaghh, kaaa!!! All babies' origin is some jism. And an egg!

This is far freakin' out nuts. Of course babies are guilty of sin! Let's round them up, card them, interrogate them -- using the cruelest, most painful interrogation techniques currently legally allowed in South Yemen -- and see if they talk.

If they don't, step up the pain.

Yeah, men, that shalt teach them a lesson.
-------------

Following the lead, I think the Holy Communion is sinful. It is cannibalism, which is outlawed even in Papua-New Guinea. You drink blood, and eat human-god flesh. In the name of God, ssss-stop already! You send shivers down my spine.

Hey, what else is sinful. Sex, eating too much, thinking about sex, masturbating, eating sugar, relaxing after dinner, sleeping, licking an ice cream, petting a pooch, licking a beaver, sucking on a poopsicle-- all sinful, horrible, vile, utterly detestable abdominable sin.

Murder, on the other hand, is a virtue. "Thou shalt decapitate them at the first break of dawn, and thread their ears through spikes, and make cartographic navigation instruments out of the cartilage of their kiesters." God made love out of wedlock, and seduced a married woman to have sex extramaritally. If we took God as our ethical / moral adviser and role model, there would be a never-ending murderous, debaucherous mayhem ruling the outer mantle of the good ole' Earth. Heck, he could not even pass the Ten Commandments. How could he respect his elders? How could he worship no god before himself? Isn't he right in front of himself when he worships himself? He is omniobious, or omni-present, so he is in front of himself when he worships himself. He murders thousands of people every minute of every day. He steals money, he uses foul language, he says racist jokes. He does not file income tax returns (because he lives in Rome, Italy, so that's almost okay, by any court of law of man), he
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Fan of Science
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

Post by Fan of Science »

So, someone is claiming to be logical while denying the evidence that Jesus never existed? Unlike many people these days, I still believe that facts actually do matter. If more than a billion people believed Jesus lived, that's largely because they are mistaken on the evidence. The alleged Jesus wrote nothing. No one wrote anything about this alleged Jesus during his alleged life. No record of his trial exists in the Roman archives. The alleged trial is described in a manner that could not possibly have occurred.
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

Post by Supine »

Ranvier wrote:I realized early in my life that telling people something meets a high potential for rejection of what is being conveyed. Instead, I would rather ask what is possibly the original "sin" of a new born? Everything else should be irrelevant. My contention is that prayer could be somewhat sinful.
The Orthodox do not teach nor believe in Original Sin. My understanding is the doctrine began with St. Augustine.

But belief is neither here nor there as to whether something exists or not.

But irrespective of if Original Sin actually exists lets just deal with the matter that it is a doctrine, taught, and believed by many, namely Catholics and Protestants (I have no idea if any other non-Christian religions believes in it or not--probably not if the doctrine originates with St. Augustine, a bona fide intellectual and philosopher in his own right).

The first things is that Catholics and Protestants have two different conceptions of Original Sin.

The majority of the world derives their "idea" of what Original Sin means from Protestants. Why do I say that? Because Martin Luther took a very pessimistic view of nature (the universe and all various forms of life on earth) which included man. Essentially, he viewed everything as bad and in need of redemption of God. That is why people asks this question about newborns because they assume Original Sin means: "new born is bad."

The Catholic conception of Original sin was and remains pretty much the opposite of the Protestants. Catholic teaching always and still regards nature (which the sacraments uses) as essentially good, that includes humankind and newborns, because God created nature and whatever God created is therefore good. Additionally, Catholic teaching has always been that humans are inclined towards virtue because they are created in the image of God and are essentially good. However, Original Sin is the theological proposition to explain why humankind--who are essentially good and drawn towards virtue--also seem to be drawn towards vice and sin as well.

Sin in Catholicism is often theologically defined or spoken of as "a lesser good." Again, this concept of sin Latin Christianity derived from the ancient Greek philosophers. Plato argued for this idea to explain why things are not perfect as the ideal we imagine and strive for. The perfect square as an ideal but imperfectly drawn by the human hand. The ultimate good being the Logos according to him and other Greek philosophers that subscribed to the concept of Logos. Christians--in the very book of John in its opening the in the Bible--referred to Jesus as the Logos. The incarnate Logos.

So, sin is often referred to by Catholics as evil but you'll find its is at times in more theological or philosophical discussion conceptualized as a diminishing good, reduced good, or for an extremely wicked figure like Satan possibly the absence or near absence of good.

The Original Sin then for Catholics is not a concept that makes a newborn bad, rather you can think of it as spiritual form of inherited trait like physical genetics, that being while the new born is essentially good it inherited a vulnerability to sin. That's it really. No horns on the child's head. But if I recall correctly Martin Luther drew analogy of humans and all of nature in the universe to that of animal feces--once Adam and Eve sinned and Original Sin entered. But you would have to know more about Martin Luther's psychological profile.






I'll pull up a Fr. Barron's video and post it after this. Maybe he can explain things more clearly (probably PC too as he seems to be pretty PC) or maybe I have stated things with some flaws. I'm sure one can go to the Catholic Encyclopedia online or its catechism online or some essay it has online about Original Sin. And it's possible I have not accurately depicted the Protestant position too.

As for prayer, I would say it certainly is sinful if you're praying to Satan or some demon. Aside from that, I doubt it. Your motives in prayer might be construed as sinful. Like sex with your wife is not sinful but a good, but motives in it, acts resulting from that, may be sinful.

-- Updated July 28th, 2017, 5:50 pm to add the following --

Okay, I've never quite heard this explanation Fr. Barron gave particularly of a way of interpreting the various trees in the Garden of Eden nor the one tree forbidden to eat from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdmsnbz1-EE

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Ranvier
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

Post by Ranvier »

-1-
Your quality of sarcasm is far beyond my own, I enjoy it immensely. Let me ask you, why human babies have such long period of development before their fully independent? All other animals jump up shortly after birth...
Ahh, the trinity of talking to self... I do it all the time because I need intellectual conversation :) so I involve my brain, my mind, and consciousness of good spirit.

Fan of Science
"So, someone is claiming to be logical while denying the evidence that Jesus never existed?"
I respect your opinion so I will be polite... YOU CAN'T HAVE EVIDENCE OF NONEXISTENCE! of anything. But for the sake of an argument let us agree that you're right, what are your thoughts on the birth of three major religions in one area?

Supine
Thank you! Fantastic video, brilliant just brilliant. I look forward to more of your posts.

-- Updated July 28th, 2017, 10:46 pm to add the following --

*they are fully independent
**their full independence
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LuckyR
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

Post by LuckyR »

Ranvier wrote:This is presumably a very simple question but I'm yet to find a good answer. The only logical conclusion is that people pray out of selfishness to feel better, without doing much else themselves. After all, it's not as if God needs human prayers to do that which we can't possibly comprehend as right. Is all of this prayer nothing but a self delusion? I can walk into any church or house of prayer and walk out after an hour or so, just to be enhanced by my own thoughts to God so I don't feel insane in talking to myself. Other than that, no one will even say hello or give a second thought to my existence after everyone departs to their lives. On the contrary, they will all resume in their meaningless agendas to make this place a wonderful environment for future generations.

Any other thoughts on reasons for prayers? Otherwise I can remain to pray from home :)
Well the truest answer to the question is: tradition. Folks are told to pray... so they pray. Yes, it does make them feel better, but why? The answer is twofold: people are obediently following dogma, and are thus good christian soldiers, there is a certain pride there. Secondly, well meaning folk believe they are making someone else's life better, which is self explanatory.
"As usual... it depends."
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Ranvier
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

Post by Ranvier »

What you say makes perfect sense yet there is an inconsistency. I'm not entirely confident but I think that most religions, not just Christians, use prayer in their religious practices. Logical conclusion is that there has to be a common connection that has an inherent purpose. One can conclude that it's perhaps driven by individual desire for a direct connection with the divine, which is perfectly understandable. However, group prayers or prayers for others seem to point to strange humanly selfish misconception of what ought to be the human relationship with the divine that may be perpetuated by organized religion as a tool for whatever ends. Prayer in such context could serve as means to bring people of given faith into a community but the inconsistency comes from the fact that I never felt any individual interest of one another, if in fact the purpose of prayer is to make others feel better.
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Re: Why do people pray for others?

Post by LuckyR »

Ranvier wrote:What you say makes perfect sense yet there is an inconsistency. I'm not entirely confident but I think that most religions, not just Christians, use prayer in their religious practices. Logical conclusion is that there has to be a common connection that has an inherent purpose. One can conclude that it's perhaps driven by individual desire for a direct connection with the divine, which is perfectly understandable. However, group prayers or prayers for others seem to point to strange humanly selfish misconception of what ought to be the human relationship with the divine that may be perpetuated by organized religion as a tool for whatever ends. Prayer in such context could serve as means to bring people of given faith into a community but the inconsistency comes from the fact that I never felt any individual interest of one another, if in fact the purpose of prayer is to make others feel better.
Well your OP was specifically about praying for others (not just a generic "why do folks pray?" I answered thusly, though I am happy to discuss the other question.
"As usual... it depends."
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