Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheists

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Fooloso4
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by Fooloso4 »

LuckyR:
Nice try. Perhaps you noticed I used real inner city examples like martial arts class, auto repair and cosmetology, not strawmen like photosynthesis (?!?) class.

In addition, no one in this thread has presented a cogent response to my opinion that the real reason for the relief is the status of student rather than theist.
I did not make myself clear. I am in complete agreement with you. As I said, that was my first thought as well. The rest is calling attention to what I see as Prager’s evasiveness, the same kind of evasiveness he accuses others of.

Rooftop and empty lot gardening have become popular in cities and so a class on photosynthesis is not as unlikely as he claims, although a more general course on gardening would have been a fairer example. A course on secular humanism is not unlikely either given that it may serve as a bridge between those of different religions and those with no religion.

In any case, the question of what the students are studying is secondary to seeing that they are students. His whole "thought experiment" is nothing more than rhetoric.
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LuckyR
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by LuckyR »

Fooloso4 wrote:LuckyR:
Nice try. Perhaps you noticed I used real inner city examples like martial arts class, auto repair and cosmetology, not strawmen like photosynthesis (?!?) class.

In addition, no one in this thread has presented a cogent response to my opinion that the real reason for the relief is the status of student rather than theist.
I did not make myself clear. I am in complete agreement with you. As I said, that was my first thought as well. The rest is calling attention to what I see as Prager’s evasiveness, the same kind of evasiveness he accuses others of.

Rooftop and empty lot gardening have become popular in cities and so a class on photosynthesis is not as unlikely as he claims, although a more general course on gardening would have been a fairer example. A course on secular humanism is not unlikely either given that it may serve as a bridge between those of different religions and those with no religion.

In any case, the question of what the students are studying is secondary to seeing that they are students. His whole "thought experiment" is nothing more than rhetoric.
I understood your initial response but misread your follow up. No harm, no foul. Funny thing is even strawman Prager can't refute the obvious, merely tries feebly at deflection.
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Dark Matter
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by Dark Matter »

To any objective observer, the reluctance of atheists to give a straight-up answer to Pager's question is indicative of prejudice afraid of being called out.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by Sy Borg »

Theist prejudice, including outrageous political apartheid in the US - is no different to any other prejudice, be it against against women, blacks, Asians, gays etc.

It's just plain old bigotry. People have a tendency to form in-groups and out groups, cooperating with the former (morality) and competing with enemies (also often painted as moral in "destroying evil"). It's just the same dynamic playing out with different parameters.

I remember all the misrepresentation of women, blacks, Asians etc in the past, and still often today, and the misrepresentation of the morality of atheists by theists is no different.
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by Spectrum »

Dark Matter wrote:To any objective observer, the reluctance of atheists to give a straight-up answer to Pager's question is indicative of prejudice afraid of being called out.
Nope!

If any one were to answer 'Yes' to Praeger's question it imply theists [Christianity] in this case give them credence they are less violent [potentially] and therefore non-theists [atheists] are more violent.

Note this is merely an impression and do not represent the truth and that is why I insist Praeger's question is philosophically stupid. Note the bad logic;
  • 1. Christians are less violent relative to other Abrahamic religions.
    2. Christians are theists
    3. Therefore all theists are less violent.
    4. From 3 - therefore atheists are more violent.
Generalization is bad logic.
Thus, philosophical and truthfully, we need to take into account the exact contexts and details.
Atheism is a lack of belief in a God. Because non-theists have their wide range of personal beliefs on other things it is not rational to lump them as one group to be condemned.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Ranvier
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by Ranvier »

The study presented in OP is interesting, although the conclusions of such study are tainted by intent from onset implied by wording of the study title and abstract.

"Global evidence of extreme intuitive moral prejudice against atheists"

The title should read "Global evidence of extreme intuitive moral prejudice towards theist", given the design of the questions asked.
Abstract

Mounting evidence supports longstanding claims that religions can extend cooperative networks (Dah??). However, religious prosociality may have a strongly parochial component (not much confidence in such wording). Moreover, aspects of religion may promote or exacerbate conflict with those outside a given religious group, promoting regional violence, intergroup conflict, as well as tacit prejudice against nonbelievers (The entire sentence is speculative and non reflective by the study). Anti-atheist prejudice—a growing concern in increasingly secular societies—affects employment, elections, family life, and broader social inclusion (Again speculation by authors because study was not aimed at such conclusion). Preliminary work in the USA suggests that anti-atheist prejudice stems, in part, from deeply rooted intuitions about religion’s putatively necessary role in morality (I don't want to be critical but how did they infer such conclusion?). However, the cross-cultural prevalence and magnitude—as well as intracultural demographic stability—of such intuitions, as manifested in intuitive associations of immorality with atheists (The question of the study pinned religious believer vs non believer in God, inferred as atheist) against , remain unclear. Here, we quantify moral distrust of atheists by applying well-tested measures in a large global sample (N=3256, 13 diverse countries). Consistent with cultural evolutionary theories of religion and morality, people in most—but not all—countries viewed extreme moral violations as representative of atheists (I can't agree, study showed that people are less likely to think that those who believe in God are less likely to commit heinous crime) . Notably, anti-atheist prejudice was even evident among atheist participants around the world. Results contrast with recent polls that do not find self-reported moral prejudice against atheists in highly secular countries15, and imply that the recent rise in secularism in Western countries has not overwritten intuitive anti-atheist prejudice (more speculation). Entrenched moral suspicion of atheists suggests that religion’s powerful influence on moral judgements persists, even among nonbelievers in secular societies.
(Also, I did not see any control group for the study)
However, assuming the validity of such study, it implies a pragmatic approach of the general population to irrational people without any purpose in rationale for their convictions. It's not enough to derive morality from the evolutionary need for compassion, presumably so that we don't eat our young.
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LuckyR
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by LuckyR »

Dark Matter wrote:To any objective observer, the reluctance of atheists to give a straight-up answer to Pager's question is indicative of prejudice afraid of being called out.
Not reluctant.
"As usual... it depends."
Steve3007
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by Steve3007 »

I don't know if generalisation can be considered to be bad logic, but we all do it. It's called inductive reasoning.

Also, we can play the odds:

Suppose I believe that people with a Christian faith are, on average, less violent than the overall average of all people of all faiths and none. Suppose I'm then faced first with people who I know to be religious (perhaps they're wearing a badge or something) but I don't know which religion. Then I'm faced with people who have no badge. Which of these two groups would I fear least?

Well, statistically (my hasty research leads me to believe), there's about a 30% chance that those religious people are Christian and slightly less, perhaps a 20% chance, that the badge-less ones are Christian. So I guess I'd then have to assess the likelihood of violence from Christians versus non-Christians (the second group consisting of all other religions + atheists), plug those numbers into the percentages, get out my calculator, and hopefully I'd come up with a figure that would tell me which group to be less scared of.

Obviously this is a different situation from the one originally being discussed. In that one, the first group were known to be specifically Christian.

Also, obviously, while I was fiddling with my calculator the boys would probably have either passed me by (if not violent) or beaten me up and stolen it (if violent). Still, despite the silliness of this hypothetical situation we all, to some extent, unconsciously play the odds.
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Ranvier
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by Ranvier »

I wouldn't presume to know how many practicing "theists" are actually in line with the core religious convictions, perhaps not many as evident in the difference between beliefs and reality of crime. However, in that scenario with 10 students I would be most comforted if they were agnostic, as I would rather face rational people that can be reasoned with rather than self righteous or the ignorant.
Steve3007
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by Steve3007 »

Ranvier:
However, in that scenario with 10 students I would be most comforted if they were agnostic, as I would rather face rational people that can be reasoned with rather than self righteous or the ignorant.
Yeah, but their perfectly rational line of reasoning might go something like this: "You look rich. We are poor. You are one. We are many. We like money. Therefore we will rob you."

On reflection, I think I agree with the general point that was made earlier about students of photosynthesis. I'd be interested in signs that they have or have not got an incentive to rob me. If they were wearing fancy Italian suits I'd be re-assured, at least at that particular moment. Although I'd be thinking of the Woody Guthrie line: "As through this world I've wondered I've seen lots of funny men. Some will rob you with a six gun and some with a fountain pen." They'd probably rob me later with a fountain pen.
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Ranvier
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by Ranvier »

Financial gain is not the only reason I could get hurt...
Theist might hurt me because I don't look "straight" enough
Atheists might do so because they can, no purpose at all.
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-1-
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by -1- »

Ranvier wrote:Financial gain is not the only reason I could get hurt...
Theist might hurt me because I don't look "straight" enough
Atheists might do so because they can, no purpose at all.
You keep saying this often enough, R, and some atheists might hurt you. :-)

Atheists don't hurt you for many reasons, one being the same as for theists for whom you don't look "straight" enoug: because they are afraid of the law.

Sadism, controlling personality, antisocial personality disorder, narcissism, schizophrenia, are not restricted to theists or to non-theists. As well as sudden outbursts of anger, and substance abuse.

People other than with the above issues will only hurt you physically with intent, if they are police officers, Quantanimo Bay examiners, your parents, or want your wife/husband to stop singing "O sole mio" in the shower.
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Ranvier
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by Ranvier »

Lol, point taken... do not marry an atheist cop, who enjoys singing or whistling "time is on my side, yes it is".
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