Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheists

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Spectrum
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Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheists

Post by Spectrum »

Global evidence of extreme intuitive moral prejudice against atheists.
Preliminary work in the USA suggests that anti-atheist prejudice stems, in part, from deeply rooted intuitions about religion’s putatively necessary role in morality. However, the cross-cultural prevalence and magnitude—as well as intracultural demographic stability—of such intuitions, as manifested in intuitive associations of immorality with atheists, remain unclear.

Here, we quantify moral distrust of atheists by applying well-tested measures in a large global sample (N=3256, 13 diverse countries).

Consistent with cultural evolutionary theories of religion and morality, people in most—but not all—countries viewed extreme moral violations as representative of atheists. Notably, anti-atheist prejudice was even evident among atheist participants around the world.

Results contrast with recent polls that do not find self-reported moral prejudice against atheists in highly secular countries15, and imply that the recent rise in secularism in Western countries has not overwritten intuitive anti-atheist prejudice.

Entrenched moral suspicion of atheists suggests that religion’s powerful influence on moral judgements persists, even among nonbelievers in secular societies.
For details of the paper click this;
https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/csnp2/

Views, Critiques on this study?
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Steve3007
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by Steve3007 »

I haven't read enough of the link yet to be able to critique the methods of the study. But the apparent result does not seem very surprising. It seems to fit with human nature. It seems probable that throughout almost all of our species' evolutionary history we were surrounded mostly by people we knew - people from our own family and tribe who we knew to be bound by the same customs as ourselves. In the modern world this is not true. We can't know, just by looking at a stranger, how their mind works and how that is likely to influence their actions.

Relgious affiliation is a well respected badge; a certificate of behaviour underwritten by centuries of tradition. Atheism (as we non-believers like to keep telling people) does not ceritfy the presence of anything. It is the absence of something. This absence of knowledge is naturally worrying. Even if the stranger is a follower or an "alien" religion that has had a bad press in our country, it is at least knowable.

Weirdly, I'm reminded of a line spoken by the character Howard (played by John Goodman) in the movie "The Big Lebowski". The Dude (played by Jeff Bridges) has explained to him that his enemies (the main antagonists in the movie) are not Nazis, but they are nihilists. Howard is taken aback and says:

"You can say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, but at least it's an ethos."
Dark Matter
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by Dark Matter »

You mean they had to conduct a study that there is extreme moral prejudiced against atheism? Dennis Prager asks, "If you were in an American city that you were not familiar with, alone, late at night, and you couldn’t find your car, in a bad neighborhood, and you saw 10 men walking toward you, would you or would you not be relieved to know that they had just attended a Bible class?”

Christopher Hitchens answered, "Not relieved." Does anyone really believe Hitchens was bring truthful? Even the study casts doubts on his truthfulness.

-- Updated August 8th, 2017, 3:02 am to add the following --

Oh, and before someone answers with an evasive response, Prager writes:
Even atheists would have to admit that in America today, they would be very grateful to learn that those 10 men had just been studying Genesis or Isaiah. One does not hear of many Bible classes with students mugging passersby.

I therefore pose this question to make the rather obvious point that nearly all of us instinctively assume some positive things about normative Judaism and Christianity in America.

This question evidently annoys many of those who argue that there is no relationship between personal decency and Judeo-Christian religiosity. So they offer a number of responses to a question that most of us find rhetorical.

The most common is that any of us would also be relieved if we learned that the 10 men walking toward us in a dark alley had just come from a secular humanism seminar or one on photosynthesis. I fully acknowledge that I would be relieved in such cases as well. The problem with this response, however, is that in the real world, in bad parts of our cities, 10 men are rather more likely to be studying the Bible than photosynthesis or secular humanism or any other subject that would bring us relief in that dark alley.

Every response I have seen to this question is an attempt to evade the only honest response. We would all be relieved because when push comes to shove — when we have to make real-life decisions and not theoretical ones — we know that at least in America, the dominant Judeo-Christian values and the religions that adhere to them have generally made better people. This does not mean that all religious Jews and Christians in America have been, or are today, good people, and it certainly does not mean that all irreligious people are bad. It means simply that if our lives were hanging in the balance, we would be inexpressively happy to know that 10 men we did not know, walking toward us in a bad neighborhood, had just come out of a Bible class.
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by -1- »

Ring of Gyges.

Compare the study with the fact that in America, all types of crimes across the board -- from petty theft to petting goats to murder and terror activities -- are committed in 98 percent clear majority by deeply religious people, and only 2% are committed by self-professed atheists.

-- Updated 2017 August 8th, 3:21 am to add the following --

I should have said, "petting the rumps of the goats of thy neighbour".
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by Steve3007 »

-1-:
Ring of Gyges.
What are your thoughts on that? Do you think that the God concept is necessary in order to provide us with a moral judge who is believed to be watching us even if we believe that we are metaphorically wearing that ring and are unaccountable to other mortals? Or do you think that using the power of accountability given to us by the ring is recognised rationally by most people as being a path to corruption that will ultimately undo any short-term gain? Or do you believe that our natural empathy for our fellows makes most of us genuinely not want to do ill to others for personal gain even if we're not accountable? Or do you believe something else that I haven't thought of?
Compare the study with the fact that in America, all types of crimes across the board -- from petty theft to petting goats to murder and terror activities -- are committed in 98 percent clear majority by deeply religious people, and only 2% are committed by self-professed atheists.
Is that really a statistical fact? By deeply religious people? If it is a fact that most crimes in America are committed by religious people, is it not simple because most people in America are religious? A bit like saying that most crimes are committed by people over 3 feet tall, therefore midgets are saints?
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by -1- »

Steve3007 wrote:-1-:
Ring of Gyges.
What are your thoughts on that? Do you think that the God concept is necessary in order to provide us with a moral judge who is believed to be watching us even if we believe that we are metaphorically wearing that ring and are unaccountable to other mortals? Or do you think that using the power of accountability given to us by the ring is recognised rationally by most people as being a path to corruption that will ultimately undo any short-term gain? Or do you believe that our natural empathy for our fellows makes most of us genuinely not want to do ill to others for personal gain even if we're not accountable? Or do you believe something else that I haven't thought of?
Compare the study with the fact that in America, all types of crimes across the board -- from petty theft to petting goats to murder and terror activities -- are committed in 98 percent clear majority by deeply religious people, and only 2% are committed by self-professed atheists.
Is that really a statistical fact? By deeply religious people? If it is a fact that most crimes in America are committed by religious people, is it not simple because most people in America are religious? A bit like saying that most crimes are committed by people over 3 feet tall, therefore midgets are saints?
By ring of Gyges I meant to say that it automatically behoves to assume that the ring of Gyges story for moral applications is true. Whereas it is not necessarily true, or not true in all cases, or not true at all. But people believe it is true.

-------

It does not matter why people in USA prison populations are in overwhelming numbers religious. The fact remains that most criminals are religious. That can't be denied, but of course it can be explained. The explanation won't in any way help the denial.

So... what the heck are they talking about atheists being immoral? Most immoral people in the USA are religious.

Most mass murderers, terrorists, high-service politicians and their aides, and almost everyone on death row are super-religious. Why is that not a negative advert to people to view religion as a way to a life of crime? Because people are not consistent in their personal ways of figuring things out in life.
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Steve3007
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by Steve3007 »

-1-:
It does not matter why people in USA prison populations are in overwhelming numbers religious. The fact remains that most criminals are religious. That can't be denied, but of course it can be explained. The explanation won't in any way help the denial.
I take your point that the explanation of a statistical fact doesn't alter the truth (or otherwise) of that statistical fact. But it does matter if we're hoping to propose causal connections based on the statistical facts. To take that specific example of most prison inmates being religious: In the absence of other information, you might well conclude that religion causes criminality. But if it turned out that the prison inmates largely turned to religion as a way to help them out of a life of crime, then you'd have to reverse that causal connection and conclude that crime causes religion, which might then lead to less crime.
So... what the heck are they talking about atheists being immoral? Most immoral people in the USA are religious.
Personally, I think this is one of the problems with the concept of an "immoral person" as opposed to an "immoral act". See above.
Most mass murderers, terrorists, high-service politicians and their aides, and almost everyone on death row are super-religious. Why is that not a negative advert to people to view religion as a way to a life of crime? Because people are not consistent in their personal ways of figuring things out in life.
Or perhaps they just need more information as to how this alleged correlation between criminality and religion can be translated into a causal relationship.

What do you think of Dark Matter's point about meeting the 10 bible bashers in the baddest part of town? He might have a point, don't you think? I don't really know anyone that's ever been to a "bible class" (as far as I'm aware) so it's difficult for me to decide if knowing that these 10 men had been to such a class would be a cause for comfort to me.

I guess you would argue that based purely on statistical correlations, you would fear the bible boyz just as much as you would fear anyone else in the 'hood. But would you really?
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

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Hi, Steve3007. You talk about causal relationships...

when you talk about the statistic of people's perception atheists being immoral, there is no causal relationship. Why do you want to measure the two groups of criminals with two different yardsticks? The group of atheist and the group of religious criminals?

The study concluded that most people automatically think of atheists as immoral or with such tendencies. It is a study of what people think, not their reasoning.

Beyond the only feature that the people in question do not believe in a god, there is no qualification of people. So when they do believe in a god, that's where the buck stops -- whether they are inward or outward of a criminal charge, sentence, or lifestyle, it does not matter any more for the purposes of this discussion. Atheists are purely condemned in the eye of the public, and the religious outnumber them 50:1 in criminal activities. If you want to break down the motivations etc. of the 98 percent, then you have to do the same for the 2%, otherwise your analysis is meaningless.

You don't do that, so I reject your plea for deeper examination of causality between crime committing and faith of the religious criminals.

I don't know how to make this explanation any clearer. You are faced with an overwhelming evidence that more religious commit crimes than non-religious. I say this is a sign that the religious are not an iota more moral than the atheists. You counter with need to examine the tendency. I counter to that that we don't need to, since this is an argument against public opinion, which only takes one thing into consideration: a person is atheist or religious. I say therefore that we must not go any more detailed in our examination of the demographics, either.

To answer your question, I can't comment on the bible boyz.
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by Fooloso4 »

I do not think the findings of the study are at all surprising. If someone believes that God is watching then others might assume that this acts as a deterrent against immoral actions.

What the study shows is just how widespread these assumptions are. It is also pointed out that such unexamined assumptions runs counter to the evidence seen in the trend toward secular society. In time it may be that such assumptions will be counter-intuitive.
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by Spectrum »

The term 'atheist' was introduced sometime in the 1600s [?] as a pejorative label for those who do not believe in God. This is the typical psychological defense mechanism used by the naturally insecure theists.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. -Psalm 14:1

In most theistic religions, the atheists had been condemned [due to fear and insecurity] with all sorts of negatives and what the study confirmed is merely the brainwashing of believers that has been going on since religions emerged.

-- Updated Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:07 pm to add the following --
[b]Dark Matter[/b] wrote:Dennis Prager asks, "If you were in an American city that you were not familiar with, alone, late at night, and you couldn’t find your car, in a bad neighborhood, and you saw 10 men walking toward you, would you or would you not be relieved to know that they had just attended a Bible class?”
Assuming the 10 men in a very bad neighborhood were staring at me while they were walking toward me, yes, there would be some change in my expectations if I know the had just attended a Bible class because I am aware the NT has a pacifist maxim and ethos.
However this is not reflective of theism in general.

If the 10 men walking toward me were bearded & staring at me while I learned they had attended a Quran class, I will not be relieved at all [but more worried] and will avoid them.

If I know they had attended Buddhist or Jainist [atheistic] texts, I would more relieve than if they had attended Bible [theistic] class. So there is no real reason to prejudice morally against atheists in this case.

What the study implied is there had been negative brainwashing and hasty generalizations of atheists in general by theists. The author had recommended ways to avoid such hasty generalizations.
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by Dark Matter »

Spectrum wrote: Assuming the 10 men in a very bad neighborhood were staring at me while they were walking toward me, yes, there would be some change in my expectations if I know the had just attended a Bible class because I am aware the NT has a pacifist maxim and ethos.
However this is not reflective of theism in general.

If the 10 men walking toward me were bearded & staring at me while I learned they had attended a Quran class, I will not be relieved at all [but more worried] and will avoid them.

If I know they had attended Buddhist or Jainist [atheistic] texts, I would more relieve than if they had attended Bible [theistic] class. So there is no real reason to prejudice morally against atheists in this case.

What the study implied is there had been negative brainwashing and hasty generalizations of atheists in general by theists. The author had recommended ways to avoid such hasty generalizations.
And so it continues: "Every response I have seen to this question is an attempt to evade the only honest response" or in some way qualify it.
I have always specified “Bible class” because I assume that in America, anyone with common sense would in fact be very relieved if they knew that the 10 strangers, all men, approaching them in a dark alley were committed to either Judaism or Christianity and studying the Bible. I never stated “prayer class” because, unlike a Bible class, which more or less confines us to normative Judeo-Christian religions, ‘prayer meeting’ can signify anyone in any religion or even in some dangerous cult.
IMV, the intuitive moral prejudice against atheists is because most people -- including many atheists -- instinctively realize that someone who has no appreciative need for an Absolute (however it is conceived) ultimately has no appreciative need for themselves or others.
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by Spectrum »

Dark Matter wrote:
Spectrum wrote: yes, there would be some change in my expectations if I know the had just attended a Bible class because I am aware the NT has a pacifist maxim and ethos.
However this is not reflective of theism in general.
And so it continues: "Every response I have seen to this question is an attempt to evade the only honest response" or in some way qualify it.
Note I went along with the question in some way but obviously I have to qualify because it is a very narrow and stupid philosophical question in the first place.
IMV, the intuitive moral prejudice against atheists is because most people -- including many atheists -- instinctively realize that someone who has no appreciative need for an Absolute (however it is conceived) ultimately has no appreciative need for themselves or others.
In the Ethical and Moral Section, I have discussed the pros and cons of absolute moral laws from theism.

As Kant has argued in his 'Religion within the Bounds of Bare Reason (German: Die Religion innerhalb der Grenzen der bloßen Vernunft)-1793' the moral absolutes law of a theistic God is useful in some ways in relation to the time and period but they are very limited and inferior when compared to a well reasoned secular system of Absolute Moral Laws within the moral principles proposed by Kant.

The intuitive moral prejudice against atheists is merely based on brainwashing and hasty generalization, thus bad logic and irrationality due to perceived fears as a result of insecurity and low self-esteem.

-- Updated Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:05 pm to add the following --

The absolute moral laws of a theistic God [illusory] is cheapskate morality driven by a 'carrot and stick' prop and filled with fears in relation to an illusory paradise, eternal life and the threat of Hell.
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by Dark Matter »

I said nothing about "absolute moral laws from theism." Perhaps you are projecting your own fears as a result of your own prejudices, fears and insecurity.

-- Updated August 9th, 2017, 1:53 am to add the following --
Spectrum wrote: Note I went along with the question in some way but obviously I have to qualify because it is a very narrow and stupid philosophical question in the first place.
It is a "a very narrow and stupid philosophical question" only because you don't like the answer common sense demands.
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by LuckyR »

Dark Matter wrote:You mean they had to conduct a study that there is extreme moral prejudiced against atheism? Dennis Prager asks, "If you were in an American city that you were not familiar with, alone, late at night, and you couldn’t find your car, in a bad neighborhood, and you saw 10 men walking toward you, would you or would you not be relieved to know that they had just attended a Bible class?”

Christopher Hitchens answered, "Not relieved." Does anyone really believe Hitchens was bring truthful? Even the study casts doubts on his truthfulness.

-- Updated August 8th, 2017, 3:02 am to add the following --

Oh, and before someone answers with an evasive response, Prager writes:
Even atheists would have to admit that in America today, they would be very grateful to learn that those 10 men had just been studying Genesis or Isaiah. One does not hear of many Bible classes with students mugging passersby.

I therefore pose this question to make the rather obvious point that nearly all of us instinctively assume some positive things about normative Judaism and Christianity in America.

This question evidently annoys many of those who argue that there is no relationship between personal decency and Judeo-Christian religiosity. So they offer a number of responses to a question that most of us find rhetorical.

The most common is that any of us would also be relieved if we learned that the 10 men walking toward us in a dark alley had just come from a secular humanism seminar or one on photosynthesis. I fully acknowledge that I would be relieved in such cases as well. The problem with this response, however, is that in the real world, in bad parts of our cities, 10 men are rather more likely to be studying the Bible than photosynthesis or secular humanism or any other subject that would bring us relief in that dark alley.

Every response I have seen to this question is an attempt to evade the only honest response. We would all be relieved because when push comes to shove — when we have to make real-life decisions and not theoretical ones — we know that at least in America, the dominant Judeo-Christian values and the religions that adhere to them have generally made better people. This does not mean that all religious Jews and Christians in America have been, or are today, good people, and it certainly does not mean that all irreligious people are bad. It means simply that if our lives were hanging in the balance, we would be inexpressively happy to know that 10 men we did not know, walking toward us in a bad neighborhood, had just come out of a Bible class.
Of course I would be relieved. The reason for the relief is because the ten men were students. Not because they were students of this or that religion. They could be students of auto repair, or students of cosmetology or students of the martial arts. To be honest karate students would make me feel more relieved than any other student.
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Re: Study: Extreme Intuitive Moral Prejudice Against Atheist

Post by Steve3007 »

-1-:
when you talk about the statistic of people's perception atheists being immoral, there is no causal relationship. Why do you want to measure the two groups of criminals with two different yardsticks? The group of atheist and the group of religious criminals?
I'm not sure what you mean here. All I said was that you seem to have found a correlation between prison inmates and religious observance. I just said that a particular cause can't be automatically inferred just from the correlation. That's all really.

If A is correlated with B then A could have caused B or B could have caused A or they could both have been caused by C, or the correlation could be a coincidence. And so on. That's true isn't it?



Having had a quick look back at the progress of the conversation between Spectrum and Dark Matter, an observation:

Spectrum to DM:
Assuming the 10 men in a very bad neighborhood were staring at me while they were walking toward me, yes, there would be some change in my expectations if I know the had just attended a Bible class because I am aware the NT has a pacifist maxim and ethos.
However this is not reflective of theism in general.

If the 10 men walking toward me were bearded & staring at me while I learned they had attended a Quran class, I will not be relieved at all [but more worried] and will avoid them.
DM's reply:
And so it continues: "Every response I have seen to this question is an attempt to evade the only honest response" or in some way qualify it.
I don't see the evasion. Spectrum said that he would be less scared of men who'd studied the New Testament because the New Testament teaches peace. That's exactly the answer you were looking for isn't it DM? Following the general spirit of discussions on this website, "Gotcha!" is what you should surely have said here?
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