What is the meaning of religion

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Dark Matter
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Re: What is the meaning of religion

Post by Dark Matter »

Alias wrote:
Atreyu wrote:
But really, it should be common sense that consciousness cannot be the result of unconscious or mechanical forces.
Should it? Why?
If consciousness does not arise from unconscious matter, where does it come from? Has it no cause or beginning?
These are questions religion tries to answer.
Steve3007
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Re: What is the meaning of religion

Post by Steve3007 »

And the answer given by at least some religions appears to be that consciousness is made by another consciousness and that consciousness wasn't made by anything.
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Count Lucanor
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Re: What is the meaning of religion

Post by Count Lucanor »

Dark Matter wrote:
Count Lucanor wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

An old cliche of discussion forums, isn't it? Keeps being as false as ever. Keeps being unable to withstand very simple counterarguments we're all familiar with.

Calling logic the old cosmological argument is like calling chemistry the alchemists' search for the "philosopher's stone"
Well, let's see your "counter argument." Or are you just full of hot air?
You haven't noticed that you're digressing. The quote I posted is directly related to the subject of this thread: what is the meaning of religion. And it gives a good explanation (even if you don't agree with it) of the social function religion serves as a comforting illusion. The text rests on the previous assumption of theism being false, but it's not devoted to prove its falseness, as it is not within the context. On the other hand, the quote you posted as a response, is trying to prove the existence of some god, as a way to justify the existence of religion. Regardless of being a failed attempt, it's dealing with a different matter. It's obvious that you could still have theistic beliefs and not find any justification in religion practices, as in fact many deists and pantheists did.

Then you went for the most lazy and cheapest of arguments: "failed ideology that led to the murder of millions." Not only what one may think that has a positive or negative effect on society has anything to do with whether it's true or not that religion serves some social function, or that a god exists, but you also picked the one argument you would expect from an ignorant person in the streets that gets his "facts" from TV shows. Not from Berkeley, or any other center of studies. And of course, it would take about just a few minutes to lecture this person on the millions of deaths produced by the sword of the declared enemies of said "failed ideology".
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
Dark Matter
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Re: What is the meaning of religion

Post by Dark Matter »

Watts summed up the situation very well using a logic anyone can follow, but the success of material science has led many people to the illogical, if not irrational, conclusion that matter is all there is or, if not all, at least the bottom line. But religion's pursuit of values is a whole other dimension of life. It is therefore called by its critics a delusion, memes, a “parasite,” an opiate, irrational, intolerant, dogmatic, an intrusion on other people's lives and other such nonsense while ignoring (as did Marx) the fact that universities, hospitals, art, music, dance, modern science and even the values that lead critics to excoriate religion has historical ties to the religious impulse in is man.

-- Updated September 30th, 2017, 5:31 pm to add the following --
Steve3007 wrote:And the answer given by at least some religions appears to be that consciousness is made by another consciousness and that consciousness wasn't made by anything.
Put another wan, human consciousness is "... a transition from the potential to the actual, wherein the new powers and qualities constantly acquired are derived, not from the potential, but from a superior type of life which already possesses them."
Steve3007
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Re: What is the meaning of religion

Post by Steve3007 »

"Consciousness is a transition from the potential to the actual, wherein the new powers and qualities constantly acquired are derived, not from the potential, but from a superior type of life which already possesses them."

Let me try to work out what that sentence might mean.

"Consciousness is a transition from the potential to the actual..."

I suppose this might mean that the potential for consciousness existed in the universe before consciousness itself actually did. Yes, I can see that. Clearly the potential for consciousness must have existed, or consciousness wouldn't be here now.

"...wherein the new powers and qualities constantly acquired..."

Consciousness creatures like us grow, learn and aquire powers constantly. Yes. I agree.

"...are derived, not from the potential, but from a superior type of life which already possesses them."

Consciousness creatures like us got those powers from a superior type of life. Presumably another consciousness. Yes. I can see that this is another way of saying "consciousness was created by another consciousness". But longer.

-- Updated Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:52 pm to add the following --
...But religion's pursuit of values is a whole other dimension of life. It is therefore called by its critics a delusion, memes, a “parasite,” an opiate, irrational, intolerant, dogmatic...
Do people call religion all of those names because it pursues values? If that's true, it does seem an odd thing to do. I don't see anything wrong with values. I have some myself. Nobody has called me any of those names. At least not to my face.
Alias
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Re: What is the meaning of religion

Post by Alias »

Dark Matter wrote:
Alias wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

Should it? Why?
If consciousness does not arise from unconscious matter, where does it come from? Has it no cause or beginning?
These are questions religion tries to answer.
I know. By telling silly tales about unconvincing deities and their ridiculous demands.

-- Updated September 30th, 2017, 5:02 pm to add the following --

But what have those tales to do with sense - common or rare?
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
Steve3007
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Re: What is the meaning of religion

Post by Steve3007 »

But what have those tales to do with sense - common or rare?
I think that's one for Atreyu to answer, because he appears to be the one who said that it was common sense that consciousness can't be created where it didn't exist before. i.e. It must have been created by another consciousness and we don't need to ask what created that one. I guess the idea is that that fits much better with this common sense thing.

Personally, I always thought common sense was all about everyday things like remembering to wear a coat when it's cold outside.
Alias
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Re: What is the meaning of religion

Post by Alias »

Steve3007 wrote: I think that's one for Atreyu to answer, because he appears to be the one who said that it was common sense that consciousness can't be created where it didn't exist before. i.e. It must have been created by another consciousness and we don't need to ask what created that one.
Then why did we "need" to ask who/what created the one we know about?
Did we have any reasonable expectation of answering it with the available information?
Common sense would either have to follow the infinite regression until it grew bored, or else stop before it got itself into that dilemma,
and settle for those unspeakable, unthinkable, unacceptable three little words: "I don't know."
I guess the idea is that that fits much better with this common sense thing.
I guess. If one is willing to fudge definitions.
Personally, I always thought common sense was all about everyday things like remembering to wear a coat when it's cold outside.
Ah, but is it cold outside?
Or is "cold" merely a subjective state that causes people to freeze to death, only so long as they believe it to be so?
Dark Matter
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Re: What is the meaning of religion

Post by Dark Matter »

Steve3007 wrote: Personally, I always thought common sense was all about everyday things like remembering to wear a coat when it's cold outside.
Precisely, and what's more common and everyday than its mystery?
Steve3007
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Re: What is the meaning of religion

Post by Steve3007 »

The mysteries of life certainly are with us everyday. They don't take weekends off.
Dark Matter
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Re: What is the meaning of religion

Post by Dark Matter »

Alias wrote:
Dark Matter wrote:
These are questions religion tries to answer.
I know. By telling silly tales about unconvincing deities and their ridiculous demands.

-- Updated September 30th, 2017, 5:02 pm to add the following --

But what have those tales to do with sense - common or rare?
Civilization is built around these "silly tales about unconvincing deities and their ridiculous demands."

Rationalism is wrong when it assumes that religion is at first a primitive belief in something which is then followed by the pursuit of values. Rather, religion is primarily a pursuit of values, and then there formulates a system of interpretative beliefs. Back in the day, people were much more aware of their inner life than people today for the simple reason that there wasn't much to distract them. Felt values were as real or even more real than the material world: they actually meant something. "May you live in interesting times" is an ancient Chinese curse, not a blessing, for this very reason. Interesting times distract us from what really matter: spiritual progress.
Steve3007
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Re: What is the meaning of religion

Post by Steve3007 »

I think you make a good point there Dark Matter. The familiar old ancient Greek legends and poems, for example, could be regarded as simply a bunch of silly tales. But they have served as a deep source of metaphor for thousands of years.

But, incidentally, I always thought that Chinese curse was really just based on the fact that "interesting times" generally means turbulent times. Wars and so on.
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Atreyu
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Re: What is the meaning of religion

Post by Atreyu »

Alias wrote:
Atreyu wrote:
But really, it should be common sense that consciousness cannot be the result of unconscious or mechanical forces.
Should it? Why?
If consciousness does not arise from unconscious matter, where does it come from? Has it no cause or beginning?
If that's the case, how does "common sense" keep talking with its own tail perpetually filling its mouth?
I believe it's always existed. The "beginning", if there was one, was when it existed, or at least when it became active.

For us, where it "comes from", can be understood by understanding that consciousness can only be acquired as a result of the help and guidance from an already existing consciousness. Consciousness cannot arise in a vacuum. If nothing is conscious, then there is no substrate from which it could arise.
Steve3007 wrote:
I think that's one for Atreyu to answer, because he appears to be the one who said that it was common sense that consciousness can't be created where it didn't exist before. i.e. It must have been created by another consciousness and we don't need to ask what created that one.
I said ideally it would be common sense. Unfortunately, it isn't.

It should be common sense because if consciousness could really arise solely from mechanical forces, then we have every reason to think Man would be able to churn it out in a factory using highly specialized machines. Just as if life could arise from non-life, science would have been able to create it in a petri dish long ago.
Steve3007
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Re: What is the meaning of religion

Post by Steve3007 »

Why "long ago"? If something is hard, do you always assume that it must therefore be impossible?

-- Updated Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:16 am to add the following --

Why not "a short time ago" or "now" or "a short time in the future" or "a long time in the future"? Why pick that particular point in time to decide that's when artificial life should have been created by, and if it isn't created by then it never will be?

Doesn't sound much like common sense to me so far. To me, common sense means (among other things) being clear about what I know and what I don't know. If something hasn't happened yet then there are, as far as I can see, two options:

1. It might happen in the future.
2. It will never happen.

I don't know which of those is true yet.
Dark Matter
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Re: What is the meaning of religion

Post by Dark Matter »

Steve3007 wrote:I think you make a good point there Dark Matter. The familiar old ancient Greek legends and poems, for example, could be regarded as simply a bunch of silly tales. But they have served as a deep source of metaphor for thousands of years.

But, incidentally, I always thought that Chinese curse was really just based on the fact that "interesting times" generally means turbulent times. Wars and so on.
You`re right. That particular take on it is something I read somewhere a long time ago. (Actually, the saying isn`t Chinese at all.)
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