Sure. But I bet whatever sort of god I encountered wouldn't be like any of the gods described in any of the mythologies - they have all been sought extensively and long; they have eluded all recording devices and spurned all but their most isolated, uninfluential worshipers - so my revelation might very well prove useless to organized religion.Whitedragon wrote:
What I mean is, if you received divine proof that God exists, alas you could confirm it for yourself too, would you accept it?
What do we lose when we believe?
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
I know exactly what you mean. I guess the probability of there being a god is quite high in actuality, and the fact that we have so many religions is proof of that; the down side is, we keep clothing God in our image and yearns. Do you think that God would give people the awareness of his/her/its presents, and let them develop divinity to what would seem humane and familiar to each nation and group? Perhaps things are the way they are for a reason. Maybe God realizes that our need to personally identify with him through means, which we can relate is more important than introducing an "alien" model, which no one could relate to?Alias wrote:Sure. But I bet whatever sort of god I encountered wouldn't be like any of the gods described in any of the mythologies - they have all been sought extensively and long; they have eluded all recording devices and spurned all but their most isolated, uninfluential worshipers - so my revelation might very well prove useless to organized religion.Whitedragon wrote:
What I mean is, if you received divine proof that God exists, alas you could confirm it for yourself too, would you accept it?
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
I'm not signing up to either of those theories. I see no reason to think so.Whitedragon wrote: I guess the probability of there being a god is quite high in actuality, and the fact that we have so many religions is proof of that;
What else is possible? What use is a god that doesn't reflect human identity or respond to human yearnings?the down side is, we keep clothing God in our image and yearns.
What for? I mean, what would be the god's motivation?Do you think that God would give people the awareness of his/her/its presents, and let them develop divinity to what would seem humane and familiar to each nation and group?
You mean, he'd rather have us fight, persecute, torture, imprison, oppress and slaughter one another over disagreements regarding misconceptionsMaybe God realizes that our need to personally identify with him through means, which we can relate is more important than introducing an "alien" model, which no one could relate to?
than face the challenge of an unfamiliar concept?
That would be far more objectionable to me than a god who doesn't care - and much less acceptable than one who doesn't exist.
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
Plain and simple would work for me.Whitedragon wrote:Then what would you suggest. If for a moment you could look past the fact that you're an atheist, how would you suggest God go about interacting with humanity?
Introduce yourself, state your philosophy, outline your intentions, and - if any - demands -
to everyone at the same time. Repeat, in case some of them were in a coma or drunken stupor.
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
If people ignore God, unproven, would they not do the same if he was revealed - in which case, what is the point of revelation? Let's say for a moment the Bible's stories were true; I see people sacrificing to God, God sacrificing his son, (an immense sacrifice); all we have to sacrifice is belief and a fair life. Wouldn't we look rather silly if we didn't do our part, which was so small?Alias wrote:Plain and simple would work for me.Whitedragon wrote:Then what would you suggest. If for a moment you could look past the fact that you're an atheist, how would you suggest God go about interacting with humanity?
Introduce yourself, state your philosophy, outline your intentions, and - if any - demands -
to everyone at the same time. Repeat, in case some of them were in a coma or drunken stupor.
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
In what way did he sacrifice him, aren't they both up there together now?Whitedragon wrote:God sacrificing his son, (an immense sacrifice)
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
Yes, but what did the son have to face in Hell for us?Albert Tatlock wrote:In what way did he sacrifice him, aren't they both up there together now?Whitedragon wrote:God sacrificing his son, (an immense sacrifice)
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
I didn't even know he'd been to Hell, he must have been one of the few that got back out again. I'm not sure in what way he did it for us, whatever he did.Whitedragon wrote: Yes, but what did the son have to face in Hell for us?
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
They don't ignore god. That's the problem. People don't ignore any god. All claimants to deity, however implausible, however bizarre, however gruesome, have their priesthood and worshipers. And what all those people are celebrating and obeying, fighting over and sacrificing to, are nothing more than hearsay. Somebody declared with a great deal of confidence that he had talked to a god, and people believed it. Then somebody else wrote down whatever that first guy said, or what the scribe thought he heard the first guy say, and people believe that. Twenty generations, 58 translations and several thousand transcriptions later, lots and lots of people still believe it. Some don't.Whitedragon wrote:
If people ignore God, unproven,
I dunno. They pretty much accepted that the earth goes around the sun, not the other way around,would they not do the same if he was revealed
even though it's counter to their direct perception, just because it was proven.
Wouldn't the point depend on why the god wanted to be recognized in the first place?- in which case, what is the point of revelation?
They were commanded to.Let's say for a moment the Bible's stories were true; I see people sacrificing to God,
You keep repeating this, without ever having explained what his big fat sacrifice is supposed to have been. I asked several times:God sacrificing his son, (an immense sacrifice);
What did God actually invest? What did God actually give up? What did he lose?
Huh? Why would we need to give up those things? What's the reward for sacrificing a fair life?all we have to sacrifice is belief and a fair life.
We would - if that were true - and if it mattered - and if anyone were watching -Wouldn't we look rather silly if we didn't do our part, which was so small?
But, overall, I'd rather look silly than burn even one elderly midwife for witchcraft.
Did you count the provisionals in your proposition? I purpled them for you. If this then wouldn't that...
Maybe. Then again, why should I suppose any of those things?
How about:
If a god wanted to make contact with people, wouldn't it make sense to just tell them what he means?
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
Yes he did go to hell and getting out is beside the point, Eternity is not bound to time.
Alias,
It is not unclear what he wants, but we over complicate things. Like I said to Albert, the son faced Hell for us, that's what he did.
This argument has been going on for a while and I don't mind chatting about it. It seems to me, however that anyone who doesn't accept a helping hand from God, just because they don't want to look stupid, is petty and irresponsible. I was like that when I was an atheist and on my bad days when I get angry with God, I'm petty too, but in the end it's just me and not God.
One thing I am comforted by is the story of the doubtful Thomas, who received his proof by sticking his fingers in Jesus' wounds, perhaps we will receive similar proof in time.
Let me ask you one last question then we can end this, or we can continue - why do you argue about the matter, if you know you're not going to change your mind? I mean my motivation is to gain knowledge, what's yours?
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
I would think getting out is very much the point if you happen to find yourself there.Whitedragon wrote:Hi, Albert,
Yes he did go to hell and getting out is beside the point,
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
How do you know? Can you give me a biblical, or some other authoritative theological citation?Whitedragon wrote: Yes he did go to hell
If it's clear to you, why don't you tell us clearly?It is not unclear what he wants,
But I asked you what God sacrificed, not what his son did.the son faced Hell for us, that's what he did.
This, of course, leaves more questions unanswered:
Why would a sinless godling go to hell? To what purpose?
Why would anyone go to hell?
What is hell?
Who invented it?
What for?
Except you never answer the question that someone else asks.This argument has been going on for a while and I don't mind chatting about it.
What help has god offered me?It seems to me, however that anyone who doesn't accept a helping hand from God, just because they don't want to look stupid, is petty and irresponsible.
Why do you think looking stupid has any bearing on my rejection of the biblical narrative and the god it depicts?
What would be the large and responsible thing to do?
Yuck!!... doubtful Thomas, who received his proof by sticking his fingers in Jesus' wounds, perhaps we will receive similar proof in time.
I guess I was hoping to figure out what you're on about.... why do you argue about the matter, if you know you're not going to change your mind?
I've given you quite a lot of information about the bible and its historical context.I mean my motivation is to gain knowledge
Use it in good faith.
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
Passages indicating Christ went to Hell Ephesians 4:9, Acts 2:24, 1 Peter 3:19, Hosea 13:14, Zech 9:11, or follow the URL, http://taylormarshall.com/2012/04/8-bib ... -into.html
What is hell from a biblical stand point: http://www.biblestudytools.com/topical- ... le-verses/
From my own perspective.
We can't really understand what all this means, without understanding what god, hell, etc, is. I believe the mind is a microcosm of the universe, which we develop during our life. Hence, the sacrifice of Jesus/God, was to provide a realm of safety in our mind/universe, that when we die and we have included God in our life/mind, that we won't be lost or in pain when we move freely from the confines of our physical bodies when we die. Again it is the narrative/story that is important. Narrative is all around us, this is proven by the fact that we can more or less write down and describe the things around us. The environment has an impact on us and we on it. A story about God can change our soul/the-words-inside/story inside us. It goes beyond mere stories and words and has a physical bearing on the physical/material part of life. Anyone who can't see this, just simply don't want to see it and cling to their argument because of indifference.
You can't say I haven't contributed to the discussion. I may not answer all your questions, but I have provided you with many theories, which you won't indulgent. I have paid close attention to what you've been saying and I value the insight and information you have shared, I can only hope that you have found some enlightenment as well.
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
Hosea and Zecheriah don't count: those are vague predictions that can be interpreted any way you like. The Jews didn't attribute them to Jesus.Whitedragon wrote:Hi, Alias,
Passages indicating Christ went to Hell Ephesians 4:9, Acts 2:24, 1 Peter 3:19, Hosea 13:14, Zech 9:11, or follow the URL, http://taylormarshall.com/2012/04/8-bib ... -into.html
The other stuff is Paul, scrambling to save the OT prophets from damnation, so he has Jesus go down and fetch them.
Fair enough, but not a sacrifice made for "us". And still not made by God, who still has no investment or risk.
A bad place for bad people. OK. That just leaves:What is hell from a biblical stand point: http://www.biblestudytools.com/topical- ... le-verses/
What purpose does it serve? IOW Why would anyone go to hell?
Who invented it?
You told me that wasn't unclear. But it does appear unclear to an awful lot of people who are fighting over what it all means.We can't really understand what all this means, without understanding what god, hell, etc, is.
In any case, God seems a very poor communicator.
I'm sure that makes sense to you.I believe the mind is a microcosm of the universe, which we develop during our life. Hence, the sacrifice of Jesus/God, was to provide a realm of safety in our mind/universe, that when we die and we have included God in our life/mind, that we won't be lost or in pain when we move freely from the confines of our physical bodies when we die.
Me, I don't follow the logic of nailing somebody to tree so that somebody else can feel safe in their own head.
I'm also unconvinced that Guantanamo protects us from terrorism.
Maybe so, but that particular story just makes me retch.A story about God can change our soul/the-words-inside/story inside us.
If you mean a difference between right and wrong, you're right; I believe torture is wrong. Something I et, mebbe?Anyone who can't see this, just simply don't want to see it and cling to their argument because of indifference.
You don't need me to indulge your theories. As I've pointed out, those are your personal beliefs; unique and particular to you alone;I may not answer all your questions, but I have provided you with many theories, which you won't indulgent.
no-one else can ever share them, even peripherally, unless you write them down in an organized, coherent doctrine.
I can't have, and don't covet, your spiritual experience - because I'm not you.
What's available to everyone is the official text and canon of established religions. When you ask : What do you lose by believing? it's the public version we're talking about, not your private inner experience. You keep mixing the two, and that's confusing.
I attempted to explore your understanding of the religious world-view, that body of moral dictate.
I have attempted to explain why the Abrahamic family of doctrines is unacceptable to me.
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