What do we lose when we believe?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Scribbler60
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Scribbler60 »

Whitedragon wrote:I think the biggest problem is, that I'm presenting a devastatingly strong argument here and that no one can truly say they will lose anything. How does belief detract at all from your person?
You're seriously calling this a "devastatingly strong argument"?
Steve3007
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Steve3007 »

How about this instead:

If you're cold, it would be nice to feel warm. So why not just choose to feel warm? What could you possibly have to lose by making that choice?

Answer: the question makes no sense.
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LuckyR
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by LuckyR »

Whitedragon: If I tell you that belief in unicorns will increase your magical capabilities, you may or may not believe me. But one could ask, logically: why wouldn't everyone want to increase their personal Magical Quotient (MQ)? After all, you've got nothing to lose, right? OK, so everyone (including you and I) answers a poll question "do you believe in unicorns?" Yes!! Great, problem solved. OK, in that scenario, do you REALLY believe in unicorns? I wouldn't. What has been accomplished?
"As usual... it depends."
Chili
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Chili »

It is human evolutionary nature to believe, and most people find that if they endeavor to root out all beliefs, that aside from running into intellectual obstacles, they will usually find some type of automatic compulsive attachment to *something* as a belief - the prophetic destiny of a people, the rectitude of a movement...
Alias
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Alias »

... the wisdom of the crowd...

But the questions wasn't whether we are impelled to believe things ("I will look really, really cool with a parrot tattoo on my face." or "She may be kissing Brad tonight, but tomorrow she'll realize it's me she really loves." or "Visualizing my graduation gown is just as effective as studying for the finals.")
but whether there is a cost attached to choosing to believe in a god of some kind.
There is always a cost. At the very least, time invested in fruitless endeavour is a loss - and for ephemeral beings, time-loss is serious issue.

-- Updated October 18th, 2017, 11:01 am to add the following --
Whitedragon wrote: If you don't like the story, make up your own one - I don't think I did too a bad job of the coin story and it is similar to the Christ story. Only, the Christ story is better, like I say - perhaps it was the only way they could convey the weight of the sacrifice.
But nobody explained why it's good that any sacrifice should be required in the first place.
Still, if it's just a matter of making **** up, I can do better.
Are you trying to push my buttons?
Didin't even know you were a 'bot. The pipe is a clever disguise.
so how now? :?
Thus:
Alias's Wager:
If god doesn't exist, I would gain nothing by believing in one, and lose nothing by disbelief.
If god does exist and knows everything, he'll know the process which led me to my honest disbelief.
If he is just, I have lost nothing by disbelieving.
If he demands faith, he'll know I'm faking it and reject me anyway.
If he's unjust, he'll do whatever he pleases, whether I believed or not.
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Whitedragon
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Whitedragon »

Steve3007 wrote:Whitedragon:

Perhaps food was a bad analogy. I was simply trying to illustrate the point I was making that you expressly said you're talking about a feeling, and that therefore your question about choice is a mismatching of concepts.
If I understand you correctly, this means that choice and feeling don't go together? In that case, most of our choices are driven by feeling. Let's try and pick up the line of conversation again, could you explain a bit better what you mean, please.
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
Steve3007
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Steve3007 »

Whitedragon:

My original comment was prompted by what you said here:
Belief isn't that hard. Again, it's nothing to do with the mind, but how you feel.
I've never been religious myself, so I rely on the words of others to tell me what it's all about. A lot of people, including you here, seem to emphasise that it has nothing to do with reason or argument but is simply a feeling.

My understanding of "choice" is that it is about the mind - about making a rational decision. So religion, as you and some (but not all) other religious people describe it, doesn't seem to me to be a choice. It must be that either you're religious or you're not. You don't choose to be one or the other, any more than you choose to be short or tall.
Dark Matter
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Dark Matter »

Scribbler60 wrote:
Dark Matter wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Do you even know what you're talking about? Do you know what "evidence" entails? What is the DDS?
Doctor of Dental Surgery?
I’ll take that as a “no.”
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Whitedragon
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Whitedragon »

Steve3007 wrote:Whitedragon:

My original comment was prompted by what you said here:
Belief isn't that hard. Again, it's nothing to do with the mind, but how you feel.
I've never been religious myself, so I rely on the words of others to tell me what it's all about. A lot of people, including you here, seem to emphasise that it has nothing to do with reason or argument but is simply a feeling.

My understanding of "choice" is that it is about the mind - about making a rational decision. So religion, as you and some (but not all) other religious people describe it, doesn't seem to me to be a choice. It must be that either you're religious or you're not. You don't choose to be one or the other, any more than you choose to be short or tall.
Well, like I said to somebody in this thread, you can spend some time on it and try not only different "churches" but also explore it for yourself. We certainly are not going to become religious or spiritual if we don't try and meditate on it. I also suspect that your comparison of short and tall isn't 100% accurate. We cannot make ourselves shorter or taller, but we can set aside some meditation or quite time and try to immerse ourselves in it. Try to forget about all you don't like about it and focus on the stuff that resonates with you. I'll be the first to admit that there is a lot of BS even in the Bible that I don't agree with; but like I say, it often shows us history of errors to learn from, rather than instructing us to repeat those errors. I deeply respect atheists, because they can see through the faults, but that doesn't mean we have to throw out the baby with the bathwater, right?
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
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Scribbler60
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Scribbler60 »

Dark Matter wrote:
Scribbler60 wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

Doctor of Dental Surgery?
I’ll take that as a “no.”
And, again, you would be wrong.
Steve3007
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Steve3007 »

Whitedragon:
...I deeply respect atheists, because they can see through the faults, but that doesn't mean we have to throw out the baby with the bathwater, right?
Absolutely. But we don't always agree as to what is the baby and what is the bathwater.
Try to forget about all you don't like about it and focus on the stuff that resonates with you.
What generally tends to resonate with me in life (in terms of emotions and feelings) is what I can related to - what I can empathize with. There are many stories that move me deeply because they touch a chord. That doesn't mean I have to believe that they are accounts of something that actually happened. It just means that they are (generally speaking) about human beings. Just personal taste, but, when it comes to what moves me emotionally, I'm not really interested in stories about things beyond that. Whether it's The Lord or the Rings or the Old Testament. If they're fantasy creatures it doesn't really do it for me.

The parts of religion that I like are the parts that, as far as I can gather, you have rejected. The trappings - the cultural and ritualistic things that bind people together as communities. I can see why people like those parts. The abstract tales of disembodied consciousnesses are not so much my cup of tea. Too inhuman.

Hence my comment about the baby and the bathwater.
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Whitedragon
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Whitedragon »

Steve3007 wrote:Whitedragon:
...I deeply respect atheists, because they can see through the faults, but that doesn't mean we have to throw out the baby with the bathwater, right?
Absolutely. But we don't always agree as to what is the baby and what is the bathwater.
Try to forget about all you don't like about it and focus on the stuff that resonates with you.
What generally tends to resonate with me in life (in terms of emotions and feelings) is what I can related to - what I can empathize with. There are many stories that move me deeply because they touch a chord. That doesn't mean I have to believe that they are accounts of something that actually happened. It just means that they are (generally speaking) about human beings. Just personal taste, but, when it comes to what moves me emotionally, I'm not really interested in stories about things beyond that. Whether it's The Lord or the Rings or the Old Testament. If they're fantasy creatures it doesn't really do it for me.

The parts of religion that I like are the parts that, as far as I can gather, you have rejected. The trappings - the cultural and ritualistic things that bind people together as communities. I can see why people like those parts. The abstract tales of disembodied consciousnesses are not so much my cup of tea. Too inhuman.

Hence my comment about the baby and the bathwater.
I like the way you connect yourself with that you mentioned. I actually haven't rejected the stories about people's lives. I think we also should take into account that the people of that time had to contend with notions and having to explain it without the aid of science. Science has a better understanding of what consciousness is and I can't but help to wonder if one or all the prophets were scientists and brilliant in their field, would have had a better way of explaining their "revelations." My point is, even science doesn't know today what consciousness is and where it comes from and where it goes when we die. So again, we're gambling here. If the only way they could explain science, is through fantasy; if the only way they could explain complex ramifications is through metaphor, shouldn't we try and see it from their point of view, but at the same time, use our modern lens? Clearly our existence has broad ramifications, we can't ignore that, it wouldn't hurt us to listen to the people that were touched at that time and excuse their limited devices to convey it.

Of course I don't mean that no one in this day and age cannot be touched by God, but let me end with this question - how do we know which is the baby and the bathwater?
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
Steve3007
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Steve3007 »

...but let me end with this question - how do we know which is the baby and the bathwater?
Well, since what we're talking about here is our feelings/emotions, I'd say we know by feeling it. And, as I said, my feeling is that it is empathetic stories about real flesh and blood humans that move me. In the context of feelings, abstract discussions about the nature of consciousness are not relevant to me.

So I can understand why the abstract God idea was humanized by bringing in Jesus. Good move, I think. To touch me emotionally (i.e. to touch my feelings) the human part stays and the abstract stories of God I can do without.
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Scribbler60
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Scribbler60 »

Whitedragon wrote:My point is, even science doesn't know today what consciousness is and where it comes from and where it goes when we die.
Actually, current theories on consciousness seem to suggest that consciousness is an emergent property of brain function.

Sources:
Sperry's concept of mind as an emergent property of brain function and its implications for the future of humankind.
Consciousness Is the Whole Brain. It's Not Reducible.
Secondly, consciousness does not "go anywhere" when we die. It simply ceases to continue.

It's not unlike a flame. A flame needs three inputs: fuel, oxygen and heat. Remove one or more of those inputs and the flame ceases. It does not go anywhere, it just stops.

And so it is with consciousness. Consciousness needs brain chemistry, electricity, a thousands other inputs. Remove one or more of those inputs and consciousness ceases. It does not go anywhere, it just stops.

Dr Sean Carroll describes this far, far better than I could ever pretend to:
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Whitedragon
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Whitedragon »

Steve3007 wrote:
...but let me end with this question - how do we know which is the baby and the bathwater?
Well, since what we're talking about here is our feelings/emotions, I'd say we know by feeling it. And, as I said, my feeling is that it is empathetic stories about real flesh and blood humans that move me. In the context of feelings, abstract discussions about the nature of consciousness are not relevant to me.

So I can understand why the abstract God idea was humanized by bringing in Jesus. Good move, I think. To touch me emotionally (i.e. to touch my feelings) the human part stays and the abstract stories of God I can do without.
And what if you're wrong, and by not "believing," you lose something valuable that you can't see now? Like I say, it's not hard to carry a coin with you, if it unlocks a golden world, which we probably will already unlock in the here and now. I don't know how to explain this any other way. Like the OP says, what do we have to lose, this is the burning question, which no one can quite seem to answer. It so little trouble to carry something in your pocket, which doesn't take up much space and weighs less than a cell phone.
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
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