What do we lose when we believe?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Alias
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Alias »

Whitedragon wrote: 1. What is God?
God is the person/force, (most likely intelligent), that created/set the universe in motion {to evolve}.
You know this - how ?
2. "What does it want?"
The more accurate question would be, what it wants for you.
Holy texts, are full of what God wants and I will not repeat it here. In short, God whats your soul/mind to be safe and secure. He also wants a relationship with you - he doesn't want you to be alone or separated from divinity.
Your holy text source? If all of them, how do you reconcile the conflicting accounts - Without cherry-picking?
If not all of them, which one?

If somebody wants a relationship with me, they would do better to introduce themselves than to send anonymous threatening letters.
3. How does it affect me?
It affects you in every conceivable way, since he/she is the force/entity behind creation, you have in everything to do with God all day.
How does it affect me? If I do not perceive or feel or experience a presence,
cannot tell whether it's he, she or it, intelligent or not, a person or an entity or merely a force, how can I devise an appropriate response?
What kind of relationship am I expected to form with gravity or photosynthesis?
According to that description, I'm reacting appropriately, simply by existing.
4.a. Who sacrificed what?
It is our choice if we want to take the story of Christ literal.
The text is holy, truthful and accurate .... but maybe not literal... my choice.... ?
OK, I've made it.
Bear in mind that God's holiness has been isolated and pure from the very beginning of time, and he had to tarnish himself, that unblemished existence,
Had to? Why?
How can a pure god make an impure universe? Why would he want to? Was there something that god didn't make?

Did he make hell? Was it his idea? Is it a good idea?
(3b) for us all, or those who would accept it
Why did we need that sacrifice? I didn't ask for it.

Stop comparing various sacrifices, and tell me, just once, Who demanded a sacrifice? What for?
If the bible is your source of information - as it must be for the Jesus story - then you know what the word "sacrifice" means, as used in that book. There are plenty of precepts, prescriptions and examples of sacrifice in the scriptures, before the Jesus story.
Who demands such a sacrifice? To whom is it offered? By whom whom is it offered?
Remember how we said God's presents retracted from earth the further man fell from grace into sin.
We didn't say that.
You may have said that, I can't recall.
What I said was that the religious establishment pushed their concept of god farther away, and made it less familiar, less human and comprehensible, as knowledge of the real world expanded, and as the religious tenets were faced with internal contradiction and secular challenges.
This sacrifice, is God returning to us, despite the impurity of the earth, sacrificing his holiness to be with us and save us from complete rejection and isolation by him.
Wouldn't it be more cost-effective for him not to reject us in the first place? Or just forgive -- whatever?
Which opens the question: Who invented sin? Was that a good idea?
Another example of the sacrifice I'd like to put out there, is a mother, sacrificing herself as a prostitute to feed her children and when they find out about her sacrifice later, they reject her.
But it was god who condemned man to a harsh existence.
The mother in your instance is helpless against the outside threats against her children. This could not apply to an all-powerful god.

-- Updated October 28th, 2017, 8:21 pm to add the following --

Just to add, because you don't seem very clear on what I'm asking:

Who demanded a sacrifice? What for?
If the bible is your source of information - as it must be for the Jesus story - then you know what the word "sacrifice" means, as used in that book:

A mortal man offends a god, or wants to ask a favour from a god.
The god says: That will cost you a ram and two doves.
The man kills a ram and two doves.
The god forgives his sin, or grants his wish.

There are plenty of examples of sacrifice in the scriptures, before the Jesus story. So:
God is ticked off about a sin committed by men, and will forgive them, if something pure is killed by men to appease him.
A man who is pure in spirit is killed by other men who are not.
God is satisfied and forgives them.

God offering himself as a sacrifice to himself to appease himself....
seems like a long walk off a short pier.
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Whitedragon
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Whitedragon »

Alias said,
Just to add, because you don't seem very clear on what I'm asking:

Who demanded a sacrifice? What for?
If the bible is your source of information - as it must be for the Jesus story - then you know what the word "sacrifice" means, as used in that book:

A mortal man offends a god, or wants to ask a favour from a god.
The god says: That will cost you a ram and two doves.
The man kills a ram and two doves.
The god forgives his sin, or grants his wish.

There are plenty of examples of sacrifice in the scriptures, before the Jesus story. So:
God is ticked off about a sin committed by men, and will forgive them, if something pure is killed by men to appease him.
A man who is pure in spirit is killed by other men who are not.
God is satisfied and forgives them.

God offering himself as a sacrifice to himself to appease himself....
seems like a long walk off a short pier.
The Bible is clear who demanded a sacrifice and why, so I won't waste anymore time repeating it here.

God doesn't get ticked off for his own sake, why should he care what we do? So ... why does he care? What does that say about him?
God offering himself as a sacrifice to himself to appease himself....

Have you ever considered that there are situations/forces that might actually challenge God?
Moreover if we are his creation, what else would he sacrifice to rectify it, a dove or ram?

Lastly, we have been off topic for a long while now and we haven't come to the OP question to my satisfaction. You say I don't answer your questions, fine, I've tried my best so far, but neither have you answered mine, "What do we lose when we believe?" Until you can give me a satisfying answer, I think you can cut me some slack if I don't answer yours to your satisfaction, no?
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
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Albert Tatlock
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Albert Tatlock »

Whitedragon wrote: "What do we lose when we believe?" Until you can give me a satisfying answer......
We lose the option of believing something else that may conflict with what you want us to believe.
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Alias »

Whitedragon wrote: [God offering himself as a sacrifice to himself to appease himself.... ]

The Bible is clear who demanded a sacrifice and why, so I won't waste anymore time repeating it here.
Bingo! There, in a nutshell, is my main reason for rejecting the biblical god.
God doesn't get ticked off for his own sake, why should he care what we do? So ... why does he care? What does that say about him?
To me, it says exactly what the bible says: that he's a jealous, bigoted, cruel, petty and vengeful tyrant
whom I could never respect, even if I could believe that such a mean-spirited entity created the world.
Have you ever considered that there are situations/forces that might actually challenge God?
Not if he's the creator and moving force of the universe, no. What forces?
Omnipotent or potentially challenged? Pick one; you can't have both, and functioning critical faculties.
Moreover if we are his creation, what else would he sacrifice to rectify it, a dove or ram?
Here is the one you never answer:
Rectify what, exactly? Who committed what offence? Who made the laws that were broken?
If there is wrongdoing, why does a violent death set it right again?
Who made it so that murder atones for another sin?
You say I don't answer your questions, fine, I've tried my best so far, but neither have you answered mine, "What do we lose when we believe?"
Since I can't figure out whom you include in the "we" of that question, nor what it is that you believe,
nor what holy texts you are using as reference sources and by what criteria you interpret them,
I can never answer it to anyone's satisfaction.

As for believing in the god depicted in the version of the bible that I've read, I answered on Page 1:
"In the first case, my self; my autonomy; my right to exercise rational thought and decision.
In the second, perhaps my sanity - I would have to throw something vital away, and risk it not being replaced by anything of value."
and Page 2:
"If god doesn't exist, I would gain nothing by believing in one, and lose nothing by disbelief.
If god does exist and knows everything, he'll know the process which led me to my honest disbelief.
If he is just, I have lost nothing by disbelieving.
If he demands faith, he'll know I'm faking it and reject me anyway.
If he's unjust, he'll do whatever he pleases, whether I believe or not. "
Lastly, we have been off topic for a long while now
Then I was mistaken in the topic. I thought it was belief. I've been trying to discover what you are asking us to believe.
and we haven't come to the OP question to my satisfaction.
Then we're even.
selah
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Whitedragon
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Whitedragon »

Hi, Albert,

What is it that you believe that would clash with believing in God?

Hi, Alias,

I don't believe you would lose any of those things you mention, though I do know what it feels like, (to think), that you are disappointed by God. Atheists aren't the only ones with doubts, anger and questions. I can't tell you what to believe, only what I believe, I am a Christian, but explore many faiths in search for answers. I have as much pain and questions as you do, in fact since yesterday I've been very depressed and life feels dark, that's why I've been slow in responding, cause I have a lot of darkness too in my life. So if I can't respond, (at this moment), so promptly, please know that I'm not in a good place.

Like I say, I don't hold any golden keys or answers to the hard questions, though I've been struggling with them all my life. I don't know why I don't give up my faith, (but I have in the past), I guess I remember how my faith has helped me through difficult situations and that it has been good to me, even when I didn't think so. So right now, I don't have good answers. I hope I can provide you with better dialogue next week somewhere when I don't feel like this. My poetry and other's literature always seem to cheer me up, but even that doesn't help for days like these. Since my faith has been going through a rough patch for the past two years, I have trouble finding comfort in it, but it wasn't always like that. I don't know what exactly changed it ... all I know is that I wasn't angry with God like this until I started talking to other people.

What always helps me in the end, is that I have had a relationship with God for a long time and the memory of the peace and security I find in him, I can't part with, because it was always true to me. Like I say, Christians have to deal as much with pain and suffering as anyone else, but what I lose when I stop believing is a presents I can't explain, that comforts me and guides me. It somehow always carries me through: where friends and doctors fail to help, my faith and search for answers in all places have always helped me. I search all faiths and convictions, and it rewarded me, it's a shame you won't open yourself to more paths, it is rewarding.

Sometimes I wonder if I can keep on fighting all these things that work against me, but even if I fail, I know that more awaits me when I check out. I can't force you to give faith a chance, all that I know is that I would not have made it this far with out it. When I look back on my life, my darkest hours was not when I thought God let me down, but when I exchanged my faith for disbelieve and try to find my strength in other things. I know how things were before I doubted, I was safe and happy, but since I wandered life got darker and all the things that I thought were a better alternative to what I knew let me down. Still now I'm paying for my doubts and straying from what was good to me. It takes a long time to heal from such a detour ... I hope people don't realize that too late.
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Alias »

Whitedragon wrote:
I don't believe you would lose any of those things you mention, though I do know what it feels like, (to think), that you are disappointed by God. Atheists aren't the only ones with doubts, anger and questions.
I am not disappointed: I simply do not believe such an entity is real or possible.
I have no doubts: I simply do not believe such an entity is real or possible.
I am not angry: I simply do not believe such an entity is real or possible.
I have no more questions*: I simply do not believe such an entity is real or possible.
*The questions I asked were about your belief, not the god itself: I simply do not believe such an entity is real or possible.
I simply do not believe those stories, or any other mythology. I'm interested, not credulous.
I am a Christian, but explore many faiths in search for answers.

Fine. Not my problem.
So right now, I don't have good answers.
That's all right; I don't need any.
I hope I can provide you with better dialogue next week
...on a different topic. I think this one's exhausted.
I wasn't angry with God like this until I started talking to other people.
Other people tend to have that effect. Better not watch the news, either.
Commune with trees, music and dogs. They have charms to soother the human breast.
it's a shame you won't open yourself to more paths, it is rewarding.
Been down most of them, at least some way. Done that.
Have an extensive collection of tee-shirts and very few regrets.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Whitedragon
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Whitedragon »

Cool, mate. I think this topic is exhausted too.

I'll start a new one next week from an atheist's point of few for a change, I think you'll find it refreshing.

Thanks for all the input.

Enjoy the rest of your day.
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
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Albert Tatlock
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Albert Tatlock »

Whitedragon wrote:Hi, Albert,

What is it that you believe that would clash with believing in God?
I don't know if there is a God, just as I don't know if the Big Bang theory is correct. All I know about these things is what others tell me and I can't just commit myself to believing something because of that. If you can say exactly what God is and where the verifying evidence is to be found then that would be a starting point.
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Whitedragon
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Whitedragon »

Albert Tatlock wrote:
Whitedragon wrote:Hi, Albert,

What is it that you believe that would clash with believing in God?
I don't know if there is a God, just as I don't know if the Big Bang theory is correct. All I know about these things is what others tell me and I can't just commit myself to believing something because of that. If you can say exactly what God is and where the verifying evidence is to be found then that would be a starting point.
I don't know where you live, but if you have a garden, go outside tonight and look up at the stars ... just sit in silence. Then find some verses that uplifts the soul. Other than that I can't tell you where to find God or provide evidence. Some people find them in everything: their children's laughter, a sunset, silence. Often when we start thinking of what we have: our loved ones, our comforts, (even if they are small), then gratitude is what helps us understand that. I can't give you faith, only you can open yourself to that. I've seen some miracles in my time, but that's not why I believe. Miracles can be unappreciated too and it doesn't give us salvation. I've seen time being affected, accelerating before my eyes, I've seen time slow down, no clocks or watches moved in the house. I've talked to God and happened to look up in the starry sky and he answered me with a shooting star; but neither of that is what gives me faith. What gives me faith, is the fact that I dedicated my time to form a relationship with God, that developed love and trust. Read the Bible, no one gives away faith, neither can I. I can just testify of the things that happened in my life. You WILL find God ... if you look for him, your relationship will cultivate the proof you need. :)
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
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