What do we lose when we believe?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Alias
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Alias » October 22nd, 2017, 5:07 pm

Whitedragon wrote:
What I mean is, if you received divine proof that God exists, alas you could confirm it for yourself too, would you accept it?
Sure. But I bet whatever sort of god I encountered wouldn't be like any of the gods described in any of the mythologies - they have all been sought extensively and long; they have eluded all recording devices and spurned all but their most isolated, uninfluential worshipers - so my revelation might very well prove useless to organized religion.

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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Whitedragon » October 23rd, 2017, 3:32 am

Alias wrote:
Whitedragon wrote:
What I mean is, if you received divine proof that God exists, alas you could confirm it for yourself too, would you accept it?
Sure. But I bet whatever sort of god I encountered wouldn't be like any of the gods described in any of the mythologies - they have all been sought extensively and long; they have eluded all recording devices and spurned all but their most isolated, uninfluential worshipers - so my revelation might very well prove useless to organized religion.
I know exactly what you mean. I guess the probability of there being a god is quite high in actuality, and the fact that we have so many religions is proof of that; the down side is, we keep clothing God in our image and yearns. Do you think that God would give people the awareness of his/her/its presents, and let them develop divinity to what would seem humane and familiar to each nation and group? Perhaps things are the way they are for a reason. Maybe God realizes that our need to personally identify with him through means, which we can relate is more important than introducing an "alien" model, which no one could relate to?
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.

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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Alias » October 23rd, 2017, 1:17 pm

Whitedragon wrote: I guess the probability of there being a god is quite high in actuality, and the fact that we have so many religions is proof of that;
I'm not signing up to either of those theories. I see no reason to think so.
the down side is, we keep clothing God in our image and yearns.
What else is possible? What use is a god that doesn't reflect human identity or respond to human yearnings?
Do you think that God would give people the awareness of his/her/its presents, and let them develop divinity to what would seem humane and familiar to each nation and group?
What for? I mean, what would be the god's motivation?
Maybe God realizes that our need to personally identify with him through means, which we can relate is more important than introducing an "alien" model, which no one could relate to?
You mean, he'd rather have us fight, persecute, torture, imprison, oppress and slaughter one another over disagreements regarding misconceptions
than face the challenge of an unfamiliar concept?
That would be far more objectionable to me than a god who doesn't care - and much less acceptable than one who doesn't exist.

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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Whitedragon » October 23rd, 2017, 1:31 pm

Then what would you suggest. If for a moment you could look past the fact that you're an atheist, how would you suggest God go about interacting with humanity?
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.

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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Alias » October 23rd, 2017, 2:40 pm

Whitedragon wrote:Then what would you suggest. If for a moment you could look past the fact that you're an atheist, how would you suggest God go about interacting with humanity?
Plain and simple would work for me.
Introduce yourself, state your philosophy, outline your intentions, and - if any - demands -
to everyone at the same time. Repeat, in case some of them were in a coma or drunken stupor.
Democracy in Truth! Equal votes for fact and fantasy!

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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Whitedragon » October 23rd, 2017, 2:47 pm

Alias wrote:
Whitedragon wrote:Then what would you suggest. If for a moment you could look past the fact that you're an atheist, how would you suggest God go about interacting with humanity?
Plain and simple would work for me.
Introduce yourself, state your philosophy, outline your intentions, and - if any - demands -
to everyone at the same time. Repeat, in case some of them were in a coma or drunken stupor.
If people ignore God, unproven, would they not do the same if he was revealed - in which case, what is the point of revelation? Let's say for a moment the Bible's stories were true; I see people sacrificing to God, God sacrificing his son, (an immense sacrifice); all we have to sacrifice is belief and a fair life. Wouldn't we look rather silly if we didn't do our part, which was so small?
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.

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Albert Tatlock
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Albert Tatlock » October 23rd, 2017, 3:58 pm

Whitedragon wrote:God sacrificing his son, (an immense sacrifice)
In what way did he sacrifice him, aren't they both up there together now?

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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Whitedragon » October 23rd, 2017, 4:04 pm

Albert Tatlock wrote:
Whitedragon wrote:God sacrificing his son, (an immense sacrifice)
In what way did he sacrifice him, aren't they both up there together now?
Yes, but what did the son have to face in Hell for us?
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.

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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Albert Tatlock » October 23rd, 2017, 4:13 pm

Whitedragon wrote: Yes, but what did the son have to face in Hell for us?
I didn't even know he'd been to Hell, he must have been one of the few that got back out again. I'm not sure in what way he did it for us, whatever he did.

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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Alias » October 23rd, 2017, 4:17 pm

Whitedragon wrote:
If people ignore God, unproven,
They don't ignore god. That's the problem. People don't ignore any god. All claimants to deity, however implausible, however bizarre, however gruesome, have their priesthood and worshipers. And what all those people are celebrating and obeying, fighting over and sacrificing to, are nothing more than hearsay. Somebody declared with a great deal of confidence that he had talked to a god, and people believed it. Then somebody else wrote down whatever that first guy said, or what the scribe thought he heard the first guy say, and people believe that. Twenty generations, 58 translations and several thousand transcriptions later, lots and lots of people still believe it. Some don't.
would they not do the same if he was revealed
I dunno. They pretty much accepted that the earth goes around the sun, not the other way around,
even though it's counter to their direct perception, just because it was proven.
- in which case, what is the point of revelation?
Wouldn't the point depend on why the god wanted to be recognized in the first place?
Let's say for a moment the Bible's stories were true; I see people sacrificing to God,
They were commanded to.
God sacrificing his son, (an immense sacrifice);
You keep repeating this, without ever having explained what his big fat sacrifice is supposed to have been. I asked several times:
What did God actually invest? What did God actually give up? What did he lose?
all we have to sacrifice is belief and a fair life.
Huh? Why would we need to give up those things? What's the reward for sacrificing a fair life?
Wouldn't we look rather silly if we didn't do our part, which was so small?
We would - if that were true - and if it mattered - and if anyone were watching -
But, overall, I'd rather look silly than burn even one elderly midwife for witchcraft.

Did you count the provisionals in your proposition? I purpled them for you. If this then wouldn't that...
Maybe. Then again, why should I suppose any of those things?
How about:
If a god wanted to make contact with people, wouldn't it make sense to just tell them what he means?

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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Whitedragon » October 23rd, 2017, 4:30 pm

Hi, Albert,

Yes he did go to hell and getting out is beside the point, Eternity is not bound to time.

Alias,

It is not unclear what he wants, but we over complicate things. Like I said to Albert, the son faced Hell for us, that's what he did.

This argument has been going on for a while and I don't mind chatting about it. It seems to me, however that anyone who doesn't accept a helping hand from God, just because they don't want to look stupid, is petty and irresponsible. I was like that when I was an atheist and on my bad days when I get angry with God, I'm petty too, but in the end it's just me and not God.

One thing I am comforted by is the story of the doubtful Thomas, who received his proof by sticking his fingers in Jesus' wounds, perhaps we will receive similar proof in time.

Let me ask you one last question then we can end this, or we can continue - why do you argue about the matter, if you know you're not going to change your mind? I mean my motivation is to gain knowledge, what's yours?
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.

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Albert Tatlock
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Albert Tatlock » October 23rd, 2017, 4:40 pm

Whitedragon wrote:Hi, Albert,

Yes he did go to hell and getting out is beside the point,
I would think getting out is very much the point if you happen to find yourself there.

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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Alias » October 23rd, 2017, 6:43 pm

Whitedragon wrote: Yes he did go to hell
How do you know? Can you give me a biblical, or some other authoritative theological citation?
It is not unclear what he wants,
If it's clear to you, why don't you tell us clearly?
the son faced Hell for us, that's what he did.
But I asked you what God sacrificed, not what his son did.
This, of course, leaves more questions unanswered:
Why would a sinless godling go to hell? To what purpose?
Why would anyone go to hell?
What is hell?
Who invented it?
What for?
This argument has been going on for a while and I don't mind chatting about it.
Except you never answer the question that someone else asks.
It seems to me, however that anyone who doesn't accept a helping hand from God, just because they don't want to look stupid, is petty and irresponsible.
What help has god offered me?
Why do you think looking stupid has any bearing on my rejection of the biblical narrative and the god it depicts?
What would be the large and responsible thing to do?
... doubtful Thomas, who received his proof by sticking his fingers in Jesus' wounds, perhaps we will receive similar proof in time.
Yuck!!
... why do you argue about the matter, if you know you're not going to change your mind?
I guess I was hoping to figure out what you're on about.
I mean my motivation is to gain knowledge
I've given you quite a lot of information about the bible and its historical context.
Use it in good faith.

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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Whitedragon » October 24th, 2017, 4:42 am

Hi, Alias,

Passages indicating Christ went to Hell Ephesians 4:9, Acts 2:24, 1 Peter 3:19, Hosea 13:14, Zech 9:11, or follow the URL, http://taylormarshall.com/2012/04/8-bib ... -into.html

What is hell from a biblical stand point: http://www.biblestudytools.com/topical- ... le-verses/

From my own perspective.

We can't really understand what all this means, without understanding what god, hell, etc, is. I believe the mind is a microcosm of the universe, which we develop during our life. Hence, the sacrifice of Jesus/God, was to provide a realm of safety in our mind/universe, that when we die and we have included God in our life/mind, that we won't be lost or in pain when we move freely from the confines of our physical bodies when we die. Again it is the narrative/story that is important. Narrative is all around us, this is proven by the fact that we can more or less write down and describe the things around us. The environment has an impact on us and we on it. A story about God can change our soul/the-words-inside/story inside us. It goes beyond mere stories and words and has a physical bearing on the physical/material part of life. Anyone who can't see this, just simply don't want to see it and cling to their argument because of indifference.

You can't say I haven't contributed to the discussion. I may not answer all your questions, but I have provided you with many theories, which you won't indulgent. I have paid close attention to what you've been saying and I value the insight and information you have shared, I can only hope that you have found some enlightenment as well.
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.

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Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Alias » October 24th, 2017, 11:39 am

Whitedragon wrote:Hi, Alias,

Passages indicating Christ went to Hell Ephesians 4:9, Acts 2:24, 1 Peter 3:19, Hosea 13:14, Zech 9:11, or follow the URL, http://taylormarshall.com/2012/04/8-bib ... -into.html
Hosea and Zecheriah don't count: those are vague predictions that can be interpreted any way you like. The Jews didn't attribute them to Jesus.
The other stuff is Paul, scrambling to save the OT prophets from damnation, so he has Jesus go down and fetch them.
Fair enough, but not a sacrifice made for "us". And still not made by God, who still has no investment or risk.
What is hell from a biblical stand point: http://www.biblestudytools.com/topical- ... le-verses/
A bad place for bad people. OK. That just leaves:
What purpose does it serve? IOW Why would anyone go to hell?
Who invented it?
We can't really understand what all this means, without understanding what god, hell, etc, is.
You told me that wasn't unclear. But it does appear unclear to an awful lot of people who are fighting over what it all means.
In any case, God seems a very poor communicator.
I believe the mind is a microcosm of the universe, which we develop during our life. Hence, the sacrifice of Jesus/God, was to provide a realm of safety in our mind/universe, that when we die and we have included God in our life/mind, that we won't be lost or in pain when we move freely from the confines of our physical bodies when we die.
I'm sure that makes sense to you.
Me, I don't follow the logic of nailing somebody to tree so that somebody else can feel safe in their own head.
I'm also unconvinced that Guantanamo protects us from terrorism.
A story about God can change our soul/the-words-inside/story inside us.
Maybe so, but that particular story just makes me retch.
Anyone who can't see this, just simply don't want to see it and cling to their argument because of indifference.
If you mean a difference between right and wrong, you're right; I believe torture is wrong. Something I et, mebbe?
I may not answer all your questions, but I have provided you with many theories, which you won't indulgent.
You don't need me to indulge your theories. As I've pointed out, those are your personal beliefs; unique and particular to you alone;
no-one else can ever share them, even peripherally, unless you write them down in an organized, coherent doctrine.
I can't have, and don't covet, your spiritual experience - because I'm not you.
What's available to everyone is the official text and canon of established religions. When you ask : What do you lose by believing? it's the public version we're talking about, not your private inner experience. You keep mixing the two, and that's confusing.
I attempted to explore your understanding of the religious world-view, that body of moral dictate.
I have attempted to explain why the Abrahamic family of doctrines is unacceptable to me.

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