What is godness?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Count Lucanor
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Re: What is godness?

Post by Count Lucanor »

Chili wrote:Ok great show us how its done instead of just throwing pies and using phrases like "fairy tales" etc.
OK, let me show you how it is done. Sit back and pay attention.

Let's have a close look at your contributions to this discussion.

First, you came up with a set of inquiries which looked promising for a debate, although it is easily noted that they provided no context, no showing of what relation they had with any particular or general concept from the previous posts. One had to assume their possible implications with the rest of the thread. First sign of an ambiguous, disordered approach to a subject, from a disorderly mind:
Chili wrote: Do you view 'science' as a methodology or a set of truths?
Don't all humans, even those who thoroughly utilize scientific methods, still find themselves embracing beliefs?
Do you view your neighbors as agents?
Two questions were answered and for the third one it was required clarification. What we got in response? Did we think we would get a rebuttal showing with surgical precision what specific statements failed in logic or missed some facts? Oh, no. What we got is this jewel:
Chili wrote:I'm wondering if you would be ready, willing, and able to add a bit more method to your statements.
No argument, no propositions, no precise indication of what's bothering him. Just a snarky remark from a bully.

And then, after zero contribution and a bit of whining, back to the "method" (more questions):
Chili wrote:What method do you use to determine if another person is conscious, and agent, or a conscious agent?
One of the new questions comes with a premise, more or less equivalent to a statement, but again, exposed ambiguosly, without context, without referencing anything concrete in the discussion, just a vague idea you have in your mind about what other people might believe:
Chili wrote:I would think that the most scientific skeptic believes everything around him is the result of "physics, all particles and the void" and then is immediately skeptical that other persons are conscious agents. Do agree with this "maximum skepticism" or do you have sloppy and emotional beliefs about other people being conscious agents?
At this time already, your own position: still absent. Your point? Still a mystery. That doesn't stop you from setting yourself up to the level of chief magistrate, as if abound with the experience of a whole career of reason and method:
Chili wrote: Truly, sir, you are a stranger to rigor and reason. Your own first impression is good enough for you, and you think it should be good enough for others.
What are you specifically referring to? We must guess. And then again, more unsubstantiated remarks...
Chili wrote: Since you scoff at method itself, happy to embrace whatever gut impression you have,


...and yet more baseless assumptions and pointless questions:
Chili wrote:...you must also applaud the "down to earth" attitude of past cultures who believed in a flat earth? After all, it eschews all this fancy stuff which is the result of logic and experiment.


...endless whining, childish finger-pointing and outright cynicism of demanding rigor, method and argument construction (while not providing absolutely any so far):
Chili wrote:That's you. That's all on you. There's no way to engage you in a more rigorous way if you yourself are just "yelling" yoor overall impressions without backing them up or investigating them.


Now, part two: you won't be able to advance arguments to prove me wrong. If you had ammunition, it would have shown already. We can predict just more whining and snarky remarks.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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Burning ghost
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Re: What is godness?

Post by Burning ghost »

Count -

I don't have any links I copied that directly from my copy of the book.

If you cannot get hold of a copy or find pdf online of "The Concept of the Collective Unconscious" I will be making a thread on this topic anyhow. It is something I have been meaning to do for some time and as your willing to comment and quite obviously don't wish to constantly offer niceties, but also willing to do so too, I will make an effort today to put something together.

For a vague picture of my general personal position I would say that Jung and Husserl have been the most useful resources for me (not that I would park myself in either camp and from my understanding of them both they seemed to be somewhat suspicious of delineations; especially in regard to subjectivity and objectivity.)
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Chili
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Re: What is godness?

Post by Chili »

Count Lucanor wrote:Now, part two: you won't be able to advance arguments to prove me wrong. If you had ammunition, it would have shown already. We can predict just more whining and snarky remarks.
Wow you paid a lot of attention to slagging me down rather than making any points. Seems to be what your good at. I take it back. You are certainly very thorough and methodical when it's an activity you enjoy.
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Count Lucanor
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Re: What is godness?

Post by Count Lucanor »

Burning ghost wrote:Count -

I don't have any links I copied that directly from my copy of the book.

If you cannot get hold of a copy or find pdf online of "The Concept of the Collective Unconscious" I will be making a thread on this topic anyhow. It is something I have been meaning to do for some time and as your willing to comment and quite obviously don't wish to constantly offer niceties, but also willing to do so too, I will make an effort today to put something together.

For a vague picture of my general personal position I would say that Jung and Husserl have been the most useful resources for me (not that I would park myself in either camp and from my understanding of them both they seemed to be somewhat suspicious of delineations; especially in regard to subjectivity and objectivity.)
I did find the copy online and started to read the first pages. It's very unlikely that I'll continue for long, although I saw already that you opened the new thread and it might be useful as reference for discussion. What does start to come up at first glance is that he doesn't seem to be steering towards mystical mumbo jumbo, at least not yet, although one can understand how easily it leaves the door open to it, and it looks like eventually he crossed that door at some time. Anyway, we'll see there.

Going back to the topic, I think so far a couple of definitions of godness have been addressed:

1. The person-like god of most religions, either monotheistic and polytheistic. As I said provisionally, this godness entails:

*Conscious agency and free will
*Having faculties that surpass those of any natural being (supernaturalism).
*Exercising governance, control, over the events of nature and human affairs.
*Not being bound to a physical body, and thus, immortal. Most gods, however, do take some type of shape or own a spirit, which is nevertheless thought of as a substance.
*Added: Dwelling in a realm that is not natural, not directly and physically accesible to human beings, except when certain conditions (devised by the deity) are met.

This type of divinity fits into the doctrines of ancient Egypt, Greece and Rome. It may well fit into animism and several forms of deism.

It also fits into Christian theology to this day, although not all Christian doctrines recognize the same degrees for each of these attributes, and that includes the notion of "being supreme". There are majoritarian conceptions where the god does not have infinite consciousness, free will and power, in other words, not omniscient, nor omnipotent; and some others that inconsistently (and conveniently) move from different sets of balances between these poles, according to the context. This is exemplified in the concept of prayer, as well as in the offering of sacrifices.

2. The non-personal god, which is just the biggest force above nature, or the primordial force. It is often described as "mere existence", an impersonal absolute, or as nature itself. One of its properties, as that of personal deities, is of existing in a hidden realm, not directly accessible to human beings, except when certain conditions are met. This god often merges with individual psychology and the implicit or explicit teleology is that of harmony and reconciliation between all the elements. This might be the type of godness of Buddhism and Jainism. Perhaps also what C. Jung conceived as spirituality.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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