Paradise and pre-mortality

[Whitedragon]

Eden is certainly an interesting story, but we have to sometimes take a step back and ask, does it make sense?

When God apparently created Earth, we learn that there was no death on Earth. Earth was a paradise where men and beast lived in peace, free from pain and suffering, death and sorrow. Scientifically we also know that many animals predate mankind, and from that evidence we know that many of those animals went extinct before the dawn of man. My question is, if Earth was a paradise, why did those animals, (like the dinosaurs), die? Why was there any death at all on Earth, if it was supposed to be some kind of Heaven where God dwelt among man and beast? It seems from this that the Biblical story about paradise and scientific evidence concerning the mortality and extinction of species clash, so, was there ever a paradise?

[Georgeanna]

Eden is certainly an interesting story, but we have to sometimes take a step back and ask, does it make sense?

When God apparently created Earth, we learn that there was no death on Earth. Earth was a paradise where men and beast lived in peace, free from pain and suffering, death and sorrow. Scientifically we also know that many animals predate mankind, and from that evidence we know that many of those animals went extinct before the dawn of man. My question is, if Earth was a paradise, why did those animals, (like the dinosaurs), die? Why was there any death at all on Earth, if it was supposed to be some kind of Heaven where God dwelt among man and beast? It seems from this that the Biblical story about paradise and scientific evidence concerning the mortality and extinction of species clash, so, was there ever a paradise?

The Garden of Eden is a story of a Perfect Creation, a description of what some might term Paradise.
A pure time and place, controlled by an apparently perfect God. Written by humans.
I doubt that there was ever such a place, other than in man's imaginings.
Images of perfection or utopia seem to need a set of rules designed to be broken by humans as they exist in their complex realities.
Why do we need such stories ?
Would we want to live in such a world, even if we could?
Worlds free of conflict and death are a fantasy.
But we need to dream and hope. And better ourselves. Don't we?

[Whitedragon]

Eden is certainly an interesting story, but we have to sometimes take a step back and ask, does it make sense?

When God apparently created Earth, we learn that there was no death on Earth. Earth was a paradise where men and beast lived in peace, free from pain and suffering, death and sorrow. Scientifically we also know that many animals predate mankind, and from that evidence we know that many of those animals went extinct before the dawn of man. My question is, if Earth was a paradise, why did those animals, (like the dinosaurs), die? Why was there any death at all on Earth, if it was supposed to be some kind of Heaven where God dwelt among man and beast? It seems from this that the Biblical story about paradise and scientific evidence concerning the mortality and extinction of species clash, so, was there ever a paradise?

The Garden of Eden is a story of a Perfect Creation, a description of what some might term Paradise.
A pure time and place, controlled by an apparently perfect God. Written by humans.
I doubt that there was ever such a place, other than in man's imaginings.
Images of perfection or utopia seem to need a set of rules designed to be broken by humans as they exist in their complex realities.
Why do we need such stories ?
Would we want to live in such a world, even if we could?
Worlds free of conflict and death are a fantasy.
But we need to dream and hope. And better ourselves. Don't we?

I doubt the existence of such a place too and can also not understand why we would want to live in a world with no challenges. It is indeed better to work out our own "salvation," a paradise would make for dry literature.

[Eduk]

A paradise where only 'good' things happen is literally incomprehensible.
For example if you and me were in heaven and decided to have a race. Who would win?

[Georgeanna]

A paradise where only 'good' things happen is literally incomprehensible.
For example if you and me were in heaven and decided to have a race. Who would win?

It's immaterial. It's all good.

[Whitedragon]

A paradise where only 'good' things happen is literally incomprehensible.
For example if you and me were in heaven and decided to have a race. Who would win?

There is a passage from the shack of a tame bird that can and both can't fly. I guess there are limitations in Heaven, otherwise neither the devil nor god would have won. Just like we limit or pretend to limit ourselves while wrestling with our children or letting our girlfriend beat us at chess.

[Eduk]

Well limitations directly contradicts the notion that God is omnipotent. Either God is omnipotent or they aren't. By the way I can't conceive of omnipotence.
Also if I am racing you then I am neither a child nor your girlfriend and the reverse is true. So in this scenario who wins the race?

[Whitedragon]

Well limitations directly contradicts the notion that God is omnipotent. Either God is omnipotent or they aren't. By the way I can't conceive of omnipotence.
Also if I am racing you then I am neither a child nor your girlfriend and the reverse is true. So in this scenario who wins the race?

Perhaps different beings have different limitations. Some heavenly beings may be better at certain things than others. But how does this connect to discussing whether a paradise existed?

[Eduk]

I am saying that paradise as it is commonly described is incomprehensible. So if you ask me if paradise exists then what you are asking me is if a very specific, undefined and incomprehensible thing exists. Logically it would be impossible for me to say yes this thing exists.

-- Updated October 31st, 2017, 3:07 pm to add the following --

By the way you still didn't answer my very basic and very simple question. Who wins the race? On earth it is trivial to answer such a question. In paradise I have no idea.

[Whitedragon]

I am saying that paradise as it is commonly described is incomprehensible. So if you ask me if paradise exists then what you are asking me is if a very specific, undefined and incomprehensible thing exists. Logically it would be impossible for me to say yes this thing exists.

-- Updated October 31st, 2017, 3:07 pm to add the following --

By the way you still didn't answer my very basic and very simple question. Who wins the race? On earth it is trivial to answer such a question. In paradise I have no idea.

In paradise it is said creatures were immortal, not equally fast. Your question actually reminds me of a joke, I can't repeat here.

Since I can't WhatsApp God for an answer, I don't know; but the story of Jacob wrestling with God comes to mind. Both were equally matched, until the force struggling with Jacob dislocated his hip. They seemed to be equally matched, though, since Jacob grabbed hold of God and wouldn't let him go until he blessed him.

Assuming all are equally fast, no one would win or lose, though a few could stumble over rocks. I guess in an equal race no one would lose.

[Count Lucanor]

Eden is certainly an interesting story, but we have to sometimes take a step back and ask, does it make sense?

When God apparently created Earth, we learn that there was no death on Earth. Earth was a paradise where men and beast lived in peace, free from pain and suffering, death and sorrow. Scientifically we also know that many animals predate mankind, and from that evidence we know that many of those animals went extinct before the dawn of man. My question is, if Earth was a paradise, why did those animals, (like the dinosaurs), die? Why was there any death at all on Earth, if it was supposed to be some kind of Heaven where God dwelt among man and beast? It seems from this that the Biblical story about paradise and scientific evidence concerning the mortality and extinction of species clash, so, was there ever a paradise?

Remember that it's religion: infantile and absurd. It doesn't have to make sense.

[Sy Borg]

I read the myth of Adam and Eve as an allegory that, while self awareness allows us the advantage of knowledge it comes at the cost of “happy blindness – happy, of course, because they did not know that they could not see” (S Greenblatt, 2017).

Humans have lost what they perceive as blissful ignorance of other species (although they are far less ignorant than has been long supposed). Loss of innocence and the pains of facing reality are the costs of growing up, the price that must be paid for the empowerment of awareness.

[Burning ghost]

I think you'd be better off looking at the context of the story rather than believing the story is an actual representation of human life on Earth. We'd no more read Lord of the Rings and go out looking for hobbits and dragons after reading it than we would look for evidence of an actual Eden.

Nevertheless the motivations and message of the story in both cases cuts to a deeper human understanding of reality and how we approach the world and deal with the problems we face.

You can also look at many other mythological stories across the globe and find common themes that express something quite distinct about our nature (these stories need not necessarily be religious fables, they may simply be instances of folklore that have had a cultural impact and stood the test of time - and survived so long because they resonate with us and our way of understanding the world.)

And like Count suggests, it may just be meaningless drivel that happened to have been indoctrinated by a religious institution. Even so it at least exposes some kind of reason by trying to explain our origins and being capable of hindsight and foresight.

It may even refer indirectly to a particular event for a certain cultural group that has long since evolved into something entirely different?

A good experiment is for you to sit down and try and create an original story in an imaginary world. you will undoubtedly express some kind of narrative that many other have without even knowing it. This is for me the most interesting thing. Living in the world we do today we are likely to express something reasonably similar and then look upon older stories (such as biblical stories) and view them, in the only way we can, with the bias of modern eyes.

I think someone made a comment elsewhere on this forum about cannibalism. To us the idea is something we openly shun, yet within certain societal circles it could just as easily be enforced as an act of worshiping a dead hero and/or destroy some evil influence. Sadly we are just stuck with our own context and have to stumble around trying to figure out what this all means from our limited perspectives. There is danger in imagining something as a truth though as much as there is not imagining some other possibility at all.

[Whitedragon]

I read the myth of Adam and Eve as an allegory that, while self awareness allows us the advantage of knowledge it comes at the cost of “happy blindness – happy, of course, because they did not know that they could not see” (S Greenblatt, 2017).

Humans have lost what they perceive as blissful ignorance of other species (although they are far less ignorant than has been long supposed). Loss of innocence and the pains of facing reality are the costs of growing up, the price that must be paid for the empowerment of awareness.

Yes, it's just a shame that awareness often leads to fantasy; either that or an overly expanded view of reality, making life far more grim than it needs to be. I can agree within this context at least with this on the teaching of Jesus, "...you can't make one hair white or black..." by worrying. I think our ability to perceive our lot sometimes traps us only in those instances where we observe only the negative. I can't help but wonder, do animals get depressed?

-- Updated November 1st, 2017, 2:41 am to add the following --

Burning Ghost said:

I think someone made a comment elsewhere on this forum about cannibalism. To us the idea is something we openly shun, yet within certain societal circles it could just as easily be enforced as an act of worshiping a dead hero and/or destroy some evil influence. Sadly we are just stuck with our own context and have to stumble around trying to figure out what this all means from our limited perspectives. There is danger in imagining something as a truth though as much as there is not imagining some other possibility at all.

I find myself to be in complete agreement with you. I watched a documentary on the Eden story a while back, and might have mentioned it here in the forum somewhere. The Eden story, again, confronts apposing views on religion, which the modern man almost certainly won't pick up without help. The Canaanites used to worship Asharah, (or if you will the wife of God). It is apparently a religion they picked up in Egypt. In this story of Eden, (with this in mind), the author/s of the book clearly oppose the practice and it is clearly seen throughout the story. An interesting read to be sure.

[Eduk]

Assuming all are equally fast, no one would win or lose, though a few could stumble over rocks. I guess in an equal race no one would lose.

Would you enter a race no one could lose? To me that sounds much more like a description of purgatory than paradise.
But then again I can't actually distinguish between heaven, hell and purgatory. They all seem the same to me.