Does the Pros of Theism Outweigh it Cons or vice-versa?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.

Does the Pros of Theism Outweigh it Cons or vice-versa?

Post Number:#1  Postby Spectrum » November 13th, 2017, 2:27 am

Does the Pros of Theism Outweigh its Cons or vice-versa AT PRESENT on in the future?

I believe we need to consider the above along with the following;

    1. Psychological
    2. Cultural
    3. Social
    4. Political
    5. Economical
    6. Moral & Ethics
    7. Education
    8. Others ? pls list.

In addition we have to assign weights to the above.

Personally I would assign a 75% weightage to the Psychological element.

Views?
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Does the Pros of Theism Outweigh it Cons or vice-versa?



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Re: Does the Pros of Theism Outweigh it Cons or vice-versa?

Post Number:#2  Postby Greta » November 13th, 2017, 2:31 am

Spectrum, old pal, I have neither sufficient data, instrumentation nor resources to answer that question with anything better than a wild guess.
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Re: Does the Pros of Theism Outweigh it Cons or vice-versa?

Post Number:#3  Postby Burning ghost » November 13th, 2017, 4:54 am

At present, yes. The evidence is we're not all dead yet (although maybe some religious folk would call that a 'failure'? haha!)

Future? God knows? :D
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Re: Does the Pros of Theism Outweigh it Cons or vice-versa?

Post Number:#4  Postby Atreyu » November 13th, 2017, 7:18 pm

I think you're making the issue unnecessarily complicated, and your post is nothing more than a duplicate of many posts here surrounding the issue of whether or not a God exists. You might as well have just asked "Is there a God or not?", which you've basically already asked in other posts.
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Re: Does the Pros of Theism Outweigh it Cons or vice-versa?

Post Number:#5  Postby Count Lucanor » November 13th, 2017, 8:16 pm

Pros? Which Pros and for whom?
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Re: Does the Pros of Theism Outweigh it Cons or vice-versa?

Post Number:#6  Postby Spectrum » November 13th, 2017, 9:28 pm

Greta wrote:Spectrum, old pal, I have neither sufficient data, instrumentation nor resources to answer that question with anything better than a wild guess.

Given the real current threats arising from SOME* evil prone theists inspired by their evil laden holy texts, I believe humanity must take on the task to do its best to gather and compile relevant data to assess the situation for the present and the future.
* yes, like only 'SOME' Nazi members strongly inspired by Hitler's ideology.

Personally, I have been very mindful of such a question (OP) for a long time and have been gathering information on a mental basis [i.e. not thesis basis].
I believe I have reasonable data in mind to abduce a credible hypothesis; i.e.
The cons of theism are compounding toward outweighing its pros.

I am hoping for ideas [for or against] from others.

-- Updated Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:49 pm to add the following --

Burning ghost wrote:At present, yes. The evidence is we're not all dead yet (although maybe some religious folk would call that a 'failure'? haha!)
Future? God knows? :D

I don't have the specific data and details but my hunch is at present the state is;
cons @ 51.1% is outweighing pros @ 49.9% with increasing trend towards the future.

Note the trend from the past where theism and theology, e.g. Christianity dominated all aspects of Christians' life and infringing into those of the non-Christians as well. But since the 'Age of Enlightenment' Christianity's power and influence has been waning to its present state where it has been defanged of political and other power.
The current state is we have power crazy Muslims [SOME] and very stupid people proving moral support to Muslims who [when have gained power] are likely to kick them in the teeth.

-- Updated Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:59 pm to add the following --

Atreyu wrote:I think you're making the issue unnecessarily complicated, and your post is nothing more than a duplicate of many posts here surrounding the issue of whether or not a God exists. You might as well have just asked "Is there a God or not?", which you've basically already asked in other posts.

Duplicate???
It is so obvious this OP is a very topic within the main subject of 'theism.'
Even when I have proven "God is an Impossibility" I believe theism will still persist for those who need it for psychological reason.
The answers to the above question could determine how entrenched is the belief in God in the psyche of theists and whether we need to bear with the negatives of theism, should the pros heavily outweigh the cons.
If the cons is outweighing the pros then it will be more convincing to "defang" any power of influence of theism arising from whichever religion, especially Islam.

-- Updated Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:04 pm to add the following --

Count Lucanor wrote:Pros? Which Pros and for whom?

For anyone who can convince themselves and others of any pros [positive] associated with theism.
Note there are many politicians who exploit the pros of religion for their selfish political interests. Note the listing I have provided above.
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Re: Does the Pros of Theism Outweigh it Cons or vice-versa?

Post Number:#7  Postby Greta » November 13th, 2017, 11:30 pm

Spectrum wrote:
Greta wrote:Spectrum, old pal, I have neither sufficient data, instrumentation nor resources to answer that question with anything better than a wild guess.

Given the real current threats arising from SOME* evil prone theists inspired by their evil laden holy texts, I believe humanity must take on the task to do its best to gather and compile relevant data to assess the situation for the present and the future.
* yes, like only 'SOME' Nazi members strongly inspired by Hitler's ideology.

Personally, I have been very mindful of such a question (OP) for a long time and have been gathering information on a mental basis [i.e. not thesis basis].
I believe I have reasonable data in mind to abduce a credible hypothesis; i.e.
The cons of theism are compounding toward outweighing its pros.

I am hoping for ideas [for or against] from others.

Some societies have acted to suppress theism believing it to be disruptive to civil order and mental health.

Does secularism need to become as authoritarian as theocracies in order to protect itself from those who would return to complete theocratic rule? I figure it will all work itself out, as it always does. The result are rarely pretty in the short term but generally life, and humans generally find a way to survive their challenges, including internal conflicts.
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Re: Does the Pros of Theism Outweigh it Cons or vice-versa?

Post Number:#8  Postby Spectrum » November 14th, 2017, 1:09 am

Greta wrote:Some societies have acted to suppress theism believing it to be disruptive to civil order and mental health.

I don't agree with the acts of suppression like those by the previous communist regimes or elsewhere.

Does secularism need to become as authoritarian as theocracies in order to protect itself from those who would return to complete theocratic rule? I figure it will all work itself out, as it always does. The result are rarely pretty in the short term but generally life, and humans generally find a way to survive their challenges, including internal conflicts.

My basis is not secularism versus theism.
My approach is based on evidence of all real human-based evils [excluding natural evils] in this World.

To deal effectively with all evils we have to break them into manageable categories.
Here [to topic] I am dealing with theistic-based evils.

I have traced the ultimate root of theistic-based evils to a belief in an impossible God [illusory] where the doctrines are corrupted with evil elements which naturally inspired the evil prone theists.

The truth is the whole community of theists as a whole are providing indirect moral support to the evil prone theists to feast on the evil tendencies and lusts to commit evil acts.

I believe the most effective approach to "defang" the impulses of theistic-based evils is to reveal the truth, i.e. God is an impossibility which cut off any valid grounds for theists to commit evil acts in the name of God and believing committing evil is their divine duty.
In addition, we have to point out the sources of the evil elements in the holy books [especially in the Quran] wherever they exist.
The above will have an impact on the majority of theists who had relied on theism to deal with an inherent unavoidable existential crisis.

I don't believe in suppression or coercion.
It is critical that humanity has to find alternative foolproof approaches to deal with that inherent unavoidable existential crisis and promote them on a voluntarily basis.

The optimism I have is there are already existing non-theistic alternatives to deal with that inherent unavoidable existential crisis. So the way forward is to improve on these alternatives such they are are 'palatable' [get rid of any religious elements] to the majority.
In addition there is an ongoing trend of the exponential expansion of knowledge in many fields which can be tapped on the improve the intended methods or find new approaches to deal with the inherent existential crisis.
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Re: Does the Pros of Theism Outweigh it Cons or vice-versa?

Post Number:#9  Postby Greta » November 14th, 2017, 1:46 am

Spectrum wrote:I have traced the ultimate root of theistic-based evils to a belief in an impossible God [illusory] where the doctrines are corrupted with evil elements which naturally inspired the evil prone theists.

The truth is the whole community of theists as a whole are providing indirect moral support to the evil prone theists to feast on the evil tendencies and lusts to commit evil acts.

I believe the most effective approach to "defang" the impulses of theistic-based evils is to reveal the truth, i.e. God is an impossibility which cut off any valid grounds for theists to commit evil acts in the name of God and believing committing evil is their divine duty.

Dear Spectrum, I would like to chat with you about some emotional and psychological factors. That is - how in tarnation do you hope to use logic to get through to people who are clearly riding their emotions?
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Re: Does the Pros of Theism Outweigh it Cons or vice-versa?

Post Number:#10  Postby Spectrum » November 14th, 2017, 2:11 am

Greta wrote:Dear Spectrum, I would like to chat with you about some emotional and psychological factors. That is - how in tarnation do you hope to use logic to get through to people who are clearly riding their emotions?

We are not going to use logic alone but the way to convince anyone should be based on logic [reasonable probable hypothesis] then support with evidence and rational justifications to justify the conclusion.

I understand, once the instincts and emotions are highly charged especially for many theists and their existential crisis, it is very difficult for them to accept any changes to their status quo. Even for drug and other forms of addiction, it is so difficult to rewire the brain for good when the related neural circuits are highly active. But it is not impossible since there are evidence of improvements.

The first thing in the approach is humanity must understand as much as possible the mechanics and process that compel a person into theism. Thus we must map a blue print of all [as far as possible] the mental and physical processes before we venture to do anything.
Note I mentioned of the exponential advancements of knowledge, especially in the neurosciences, genomics, etc. See the potential of the Connectome Project and many other advancements.

Those in the Eastern spiritualities used similar approaches but they rely on the black-box methods and use their own approximated data to chart the processes of the mind. Since there is no precision but based on trial and errors there are no consistencies in improvements throughout, but nevertheless there are improvements which are verified by scientific evidences.

However as we advance into the future riding on the exponential expansion of advance knowledge especially in the neurosciences and other related knowledge, we have the opportunity to strive for precision in the process related to the objectives to deal with theism and its related evils.

Thus we need to strife for the relevant knowledge from now and work on it [neural, etc.] with the optimism we can iron out theistic-based evil in the future with the appropriate foolproof replacements to deal with the inherent unavoidable existential crisis.
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Re: Does the Pros of Theism Outweigh it Cons or vice-versa?

Post Number:#11  Postby Greta » November 14th, 2017, 2:27 am

I think your attempts are well-meaning in some ways but futile because theists enjoy believing and the benefit of being part of a religious community is significant for extroverts. Things will change when they change. It's anticipated that religion will increasingly become a minority interest.

Yes, there's a resurgence of it but, in the longer term, I don't think it's much more than a retro fashion movement. In the short term it's a significant concern, but trying to change the situation is akin to trying to move a continent.
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Re: Does the Pros of Theism Outweigh it Cons or vice-versa?

Post Number:#12  Postby Spectrum » November 14th, 2017, 3:08 am

Greta wrote:I think your attempts are well-meaning in some ways but futile because theists enjoy believing and the benefit of being part of a religious community is significant for extroverts. Things will change when they change. It's anticipated that religion will increasingly become a minority interest.

Yes, there's a resurgence of it but, in the longer term, I don't think it's much more than a retro fashion movement. In the short term it's a significant concern, but trying to change the situation is akin to trying to move a continent.

Change is the only constant.
It is quite obvious there is an ongoing downward trend since the Enlightenment indicating there has been a decline in theism, albeit very slowly and as you had stated there are resurgences but the net graph line is moving down slope.

However the difficulty with theism is the root process is very deeply embedded in the brain and mind. Note I mentioned the existential crisis is embedded in a layer more deeper than the base of Maslow's hierarchy. Thus the neurally-based associated problems of theism is much more complex and complicated than dealing with problems associated with other instinctual impulses.

Meanwhile the real terrible evils and violence is compounding with greater and more intense threats to humanity in line with advancements in technologies and Weapons of Mass Destruction being cheaper and easily available.

With such a dangerous impending threat, humanity must therefore expedite the process to deal with theistic evils and violence rather than wait for snail pace natural improvements.

It is this concern to be expeditious that we should discuss the problems and the solutions associated with theistic-based evils more freely and actively.
Another problem we have to face at present is the regressive-left's attempt to shut off all such discussions.
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Re: Does the Pros of Theism Outweigh it Cons or vice-versa?

Post Number:#13  Postby Burning ghost » November 14th, 2017, 5:05 am

Spectrum -

Thanks for admitting to having a "hunch". You may be right or you may be wrong. Like I said, the success of today is that we're not all dead yet, if this is due to a reaction against religious attitudes, or for religious attitudes, is neither here nor there in regarding the present situation.

We're not all dead, equality is growing, poverty has been reduced, but even those are reasonably myopic views, but you asked for PRESENT view.

If greater equality leads to mass destabilization (quite possible), due to the extreme differences of cultures being forced together, then we could well say that it is not "religion" that is the problem, but that it is the transition between religious and secular views being too quick a change.

It may well be necessary for humanity to go through a few more societal collapses before we're able to ease common culture beyond dogmatic ideologies.

In the future we can either look to educate everyone and hope they cope with abandoning all their traditions without any psychological damage, or keep applying band-aids to the situation as it progresses and look out for critical signs.

I don't think it makes any sense to look at religion as a separate entity. Meaning all of the points you list above are entwined with each other. I cannot say one has more influence than another because they are part of the human system and some of the points you listed could even be said to be, to greater degrees than others, synonymous. There are pros and cons to education, economics and all the others. I think it is in our interests not to try and pull one of the pillar of human activity away or we'll likely see the whole edifice collapse on top of us and then spend another 2000 years putting the damn thing back together again (and maybe it will be even more unstable!)

Look at what is positive for each area and find a way to reconcile them all as best you can in your life and live your live. Wisdom, through diverse experience, will hopefully help you decide your limits and how best to apply yourself.

If you are happy and your life is good then you're in a position to spread out yourself. I am a firm believer in starting the change in myself and living as I wish other people should live, giving myself advice that I'd give to someone like me and taking it seriously. Looking forward and asking what I can do for myself to be in a "better" position. Attending to myself now as the beginning of what I want to be and where I want to go. I believe many religions focus on these kinds of principles and that the issue with the institutions is the subject of being human is highly complex and it takes considerable self-guidance, pain and suffering to arrive at a means of living that fits your heart. The institutions work better for some than others, and I feel that modernizing the religious principles in many institutions could be of great global benefit. I have found that where you believe the most harm lies is often where the greatest positive potential is hidden - but it certainly won't fall in your lap, everyone of us must be willing to work for nothing merely for the hope of achieving something better, and to imbue the resolve within ourselves to move forward and "keep the faith" rather than roll over and die. I think forgiveness is widely preached in religions not merely as a "get out of jail free" clause, but as a reminder that no matter how hard we fail ourselves we must learn to forgive ourselves and believe we can become something the we ourselves have some pride in.

I don't think we can "teach" this kind of thing. It is a matter of personal fields of influence. If too many people give up then destruction will ensue. If enough people keep on trying to do "better" then something "better" may happen and we'll recognize it as being "better" due to our activity rather than down to our apathy.

If you think things look bleak then do something, but be sure not to step beyond your abilities (that is another hard thing to face up to!) It's not going to be easy for humanity and it never has been.
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Re: Does the Pros of Theism Outweigh it Cons or vice-versa?

Post Number:#14  Postby Count Lucanor » November 14th, 2017, 8:32 am

Spectrum wrote:
Count Lucanor wrote:Pros? Which Pros and for whom?

For anyone who can convince themselves and others of any pros [positive] associated with theism.
Note there are many politicians who exploit the pros of religion for their selfish political interests. Note the listing I have provided above.

I'm looking for some objective ground, if there's any in this case. Facing similar situations, people can convince themselves of many different things, even having opposite views. For example, one may see the idea that theism comforts people in distress as positive, while others will see it as a negative outcome. So, the picture of how the weights of pros and cons are distributed looks fuzzy righy now and the configurations seem endless. It may be possible to say only which particular configuration one wants to subscribe to, you know, just to compare notes, but it will hardly provide a common ground to reach a conclusion.
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Re: Does the Pros of Theism Outweigh it Cons or vice-versa?

Post Number:#15  Postby Atreyu » November 14th, 2017, 8:09 pm

Spectrum wrote:However the difficulty with theism is the root process is very deeply embedded in the brain and mind.


What isn't? You could make a long list of phenomena which a neurologist/psychologist would explain via brain or mind (neurology/psychiatry/psychology). Your statement basically says nothing. The whole issue is how it is "embedded" in the brain and mind.

Spectrum wrote:With such a dangerous impending threat, humanity must therefore expedite the process to deal with theistic evils and violence rather than wait for snail pace natural improvements.


Exactly what are you proposing? Give me an example of what you think humanity could do to "expedite" dealing with theistic evils?
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