Today, Dec 15, is Hitch Day

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Steve3007
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Re: Today, Dec 15, is Hitch Day

Post by Steve3007 »

Ecurb, I like your post generally except for this part:
Ecurb wrote:In addition, Hitchens' hatred of Islam lead him into political positions that seem utterly misguided. He supported U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that have turned into boondoggles.
According to "Hitch 22" he supported the war in Iraq as a result of his direct knowledge of the actions of Saddam Hussein. He was convinced by his own experiences of these things that removing Saddam Hussein from power was an absolute necessity. I don't think that particular one had anything to do with religion. I suppose, though, that his generally contrarian instincts also had something to do with it.
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Scribbler60
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Re: Today, Dec 15, is Hitch Day

Post by Scribbler60 »

Steve3007 wrote: December 18th, 2017, 4:07 amAccording to "Hitch 22" he supported the war in Iraq as a result of his direct knowledge of the actions of Saddam Hussein. He was convinced by his own experiences of these things that removing Saddam Hussein from power was an absolute necessity. I don't think that particular one had anything to do with religion. I suppose, though, that his generally contrarian instincts also had something to do with it.
It's well established that Saddam used theocratic principles to whip up support in the Islamic world.

Whether he was a follower of Islam isn't something that I'm familiar with so I won't make any assumptions one way or another. But it's clear that he did use the koran as a basis for Iraqi aggressions, just as political leaders in the West often use the bible for similar purposes. Even Hitler used Christianity biblical scripture to support his regime. Whether he - Hitler - was a Christian is still hotly debated in certain circles, but it is unequivocal that he often drew upon scripture in speeches and his writings.
Londoner
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Re: Today, Dec 15, is Hitch Day

Post by Londoner »

Scribbler60 wrote: December 17th, 2017, 12:15 pm
Perhaps you misunderstood Hitchens' point.

He makes it plainly clear: "I won't take a text from a known extremist or fanatic, it's from Cardinal Newman... he is considered, rightly, a great Christian thinker."

Newman does not represent the religious fanatic; he does not represent the ISIS-type fundamentalist. He (Newman) is considered a moderate, a thoughtful man, a respected thinker.

Now, if Hitch had used texts from, say, an ISIS supporter or a Southern Baptist fundamentalist, to make his point, you would be absolutely correct, and I would support you in that assertion: that would be trumpian demagoguery.

But he didn't. He used the words of a moderate, respected man.
That was just the set up. He then used about two sentences from Newman, taken out of any context, to give the impression that although Newman is considered a respectable figure that in reality he is indistinguishable from ISIS.
Londoner
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Re: Today, Dec 15, is Hitch Day

Post by Londoner »

Greta wrote: December 17th, 2017, 5:09 pm Londoner, I appreciate your attempt to be fair minded, but there is no valid equivalence between even as rabid an atheist as Hitch and Trump and his followers; the latter's lies utterly dwarf Hitch's misrepresentations.
Once you have decided you are prepared to overlook 'misrepresentations' then you have lost the moral high ground from which you can object when others tell 'lies'.
Eduk
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Re: Today, Dec 15, is Hitch Day

Post by Eduk »

But I do not think he taught anybody anything. Anyone seriously interested in the subject, including atheists, found his arguments embarrassingly superficial.
I am not seriously interested in the subject and I didn't find Hitchens arguments to be embarrassingly superficial.
I'm not sure which one was the evil twin between Christopher and Peter.
You jest surely?
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Scribbler60
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Re: Today, Dec 15, is Hitch Day

Post by Scribbler60 »

Londoner wrote: December 18th, 2017, 1:10 pmThat was just the set up. He then used about two sentences from Newman, taken out of any context, to give the impression that although Newman is considered a respectable figure that in reality he is indistinguishable from ISIS.
Again, I would encourage you to take the time to educate yourself on Hitchens' arguments, since you clearly have not done that, as evidenced by your throwing up of this straw man. You can start by watching the entire debate/discussion, a link to which I posted earlier.

Perhaps I'm wrong on this, but it seems that you have fallen into the "backfire effect" trap: that when one's argument is found wanting, rather than look at the opposing argument objectively and dispassionately, one doubles-down and becomes even more entrenched. That, too, is evidenced by your thinly hidden insult to Greta.

Might be something worth considering.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Today, Dec 15, is Hitch Day

Post by Sy Borg »

Londoner wrote: December 18th, 2017, 1:14 pm
Greta wrote: December 17th, 2017, 5:09 pm Londoner, I appreciate your attempt to be fair minded, but there is no valid equivalence between even as rabid an atheist as Hitch and Trump and his followers; the latter's lies utterly dwarf Hitch's misrepresentations.
Once you have decided you are prepared to overlook 'misrepresentations' then you have lost the moral high ground from which you can object when others tell 'lies'.
That is actually a false relativity that surprises me, coming from someone of your sophistication. It seems to me that the mistake stems from frustration with the counter productive aspects of Hitch's manner. By all means correct me if that's not the case.

To clarify: If I told you that I have roughly average navigation skills then I'd be lying. If I told you that I was the best navigator in the world, then that would be a worse lie. (In truth, my mother was the only person I've met with a worse sense of direction than me). However, I am a decent talker at times. Too bad if I managed to lie my way into a job where people's safety depended on my navigation skills. If someone also lied at the interview - with competence presented as brilliance - that would be far preferable.

Being human, fault can always be found. Thus, this ignoring relativities excuses abnormally problematic actions that are then presented as being equivalent to misdemeanours. There is a great example of this in Aussie politics - where Julia Gillard was mobbed by the Murdoch press after her minority government was pressured by the Greens to introduce a carbon tax, thus breaking an election promise about "no carbon taxes". The next part of the quote, "rest assured there will be a price on carbon" was ignored by those claiming that she lied.

By contrast, Tony Abbott unequivocally promised before the election that there would be no cuts to health, education or welfare. The first budget, a few months later, featured cuts to all of those areas so extreme and potentially disruptive to society that most of the measures failed to pass through the Senate.

I go on at length because I consider this issue of moral relativity one of the most important challenges of our time. If, in the public conversation, we lack the judgement to weigh relative merits and flaws, then we are always vulnerable to the halo effect and its reverse. Without some level of discrimination and judgement, eg. noting that Islamic terrorism is currently more extreme and problematic than Christian terrorism, we open the way to dictatorships, whose extreme lies will be deemed no worse than any other because "all politicians lie".
Londoner
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Re: Today, Dec 15, is Hitch Day

Post by Londoner »

Scribbler60 wrote: December 18th, 2017, 1:59 pm Again, I would encourage you to take the time to educate yourself on Hitchens' arguments, since you clearly have not done that, as evidenced by your throwing up of this straw man. You can start by watching the entire debate/discussion, a link to which I posted earlier.

Perhaps I'm wrong on this, but it seems that you have fallen into the "backfire effect" trap: that when one's argument is found wanting, rather than look at the opposing argument objectively and dispassionately, one doubles-down and becomes even more entrenched. That, too, is evidenced by your thinly hidden insult to Greta.

Might be something worth considering.
He builds up Newman as a respected thinker, then reads a couple of dramatic sentences - out of context and with no attempt to explain them - and declares they are representative of what he calls the 'faith mentality'.

Hitchen's might have also been capable of making reasoned arguments, but I'm sorry to say that this is the sort of cheap trick that characterises him.

The clip is in the OP. If what I am saying is a straw man, any reader of this thread can easily find out for themselves.
Londoner
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Re: Today, Dec 15, is Hitch Day

Post by Londoner »

Greta wrote: December 18th, 2017, 5:00 pm
That is actually a false relativity that surprises me, coming from someone of your sophistication. It seems to me that the mistake stems from frustration with the counter productive aspects of Hitch's manner. By all means correct me if that's not the case.
It isn't a matter of whether his manner is 'counter productive'. If by 'productive' we mean 'effective in swaying an audience' then I think Hitchens' technique is highly productive.

What I think is that the technique is bad in itself.

There are two separate issues here; what we think about religion, and what we think about the way speakers like Hitchens choose to argue their case. I am addressing the second. I am saying that we should not encourage such techniques - even when they are being used for a cause with which we happen to agree - because they produce a generally bad effect on social/political discourse.

Once the level of public discourse is debased, it will not be the liberals who win. The liberal view depends on being able to put across a nuanced picture of the world. By contrast, the extremists can present a simple picture. So, when we drop our standards we are playing to the extremist's strengths.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Today, Dec 15, is Hitch Day

Post by Sy Borg »

Londoner wrote: December 19th, 2017, 6:16 amThere are two separate issues here; what we think about religion, and what we think about the way speakers like Hitchens choose to argue their case. I am addressing the second. I am saying that we should not encourage such techniques - even when they are being used for a cause with which we happen to agree - because they produce a generally bad effect on social/political discourse.
Well explained and I agree. Much as a rapier wit is entertaining and satisfying, there is too much intensity in situations today for it to be responsibly applied in public debate about serious issues.
Steve3007
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Re: Today, Dec 15, is Hitch Day

Post by Steve3007 »

Londoner wrote:Once the level of public discourse is debased, it will not be the liberals who win. The liberal view depends on being able to put across a nuanced picture of the world. By contrast, the extremists can present a simple picture. So, when we drop our standards we are playing to the extremist's strengths.
This is a very good point, but it is (I think) extraordinarily difficult to maintain a commitment to the nuanced picture - to the idea that the world is not black and white and that there are no simple solutions to the world's problems - in the face of the onslaught of populist simple-mindedness. I remember during the US election campaign when Michelle Obama kept saying "when they go low we go high" , thinking "good luck with keeping that up".

Another funny thing: I've heard almost exactly that same description of the liberal worldview (as the view which acknowledges the nuances) expressed by Stephen Fry, who was, I gather, a good friend of Christopher Hitchens', and I've never really noticed him being a particularly critical friend. I usually find Stephen Fry an incisive, informative and entertaining speaker, but on the subject of religion perhaps he also sometimes falls into this trap of black and white thinking. Or perhaps he's just too polite to criticise Hitch.
Eduk
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Re: Today, Dec 15, is Hitch Day

Post by Eduk »

but on the subject of religion perhaps he also sometimes falls into this trap of black and white thinking
You also shouldn't fall into the trap of thinking that nothing is black and white. For example I was listening to a Joe Rogan podcast where he was talking to an ex CIA member. The guy from the CIA seemed to think that both sides of the climate change debate were likely wrong and the truth was in the middle.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Today, Dec 15, is Hitch Day

Post by Sy Borg »

Steve3007 wrote: December 19th, 2017, 11:08 am... it is (I think) extraordinarily difficult to maintain a commitment to the nuanced picture - to the idea that the world is not black and white and that there are no simple solutions to the world's problems - in the face of the onslaught of populist simple-mindedness. I remember during the US election campaign when Michelle Obama kept saying "when they go low we go high" , thinking "good luck with keeping that up".
Another very important point! When someone is coming at you with a baseball bat, reason probably isn't going to win the day. Ideally, sound reasoning could "win the gallery" except that fossil fuel investor media moguls are acting as a mouthpiece for theism, anti-intellectualism and undermining confidence in our most important asset - our bodies of knowledge.

I have often wondered about this problem - how can a moral person deal with amoral types willing to use dirty tactics on a stacked deck without compromising their values and exacerbating the problems as pointed out by Londoner?
Eduk
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Re: Today, Dec 15, is Hitch Day

Post by Eduk »

how can a moral person deal with amoral types willing to use dirty tactics on a stacked deck without compromising their values and exacerbating the problems as pointed out by Londoner?
Firstly as this pertains to Hitchens Londoner would have to be correct. Hitchens would have had to take Newman's quote willfully out of context. Indeed when he criticises it for fanaticism, viewing of humans as raw material and fantasy of purity, I would say that that is sign that he is not taking it out of context. However if the correct context could be provided then I would be prepared to revise my position.
Secondly you are basically saying is it ok to be Machiavellian for the good of all if you are moral? I would say this was a very tough question. My answer would be that for practical purposes no it's not ok to be Machiavellian. For example if you manipulate an immoral or amoral agent to do a moral thing are they now moral? My answer is no but I can see an argument for other perspectives. Also let us say you lie to an immoral or amoral agent, is that actually necessarily an immoral or amoral action on your part? I would say no, though maybe I am making a no true Scotsman claim.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Today, Dec 15, is Hitch Day

Post by Sy Borg »

Eduk wrote: December 20th, 2017, 11:48 am... you are basically saying is it ok to be Machiavellian for the good of all if you are moral? I would say this was a very tough question. My answer would be that for practical purposes no it's not ok to be Machiavellian.
So do many politicians :) It is ultimately the Trolley Problem.

The usual human response to the Trolley Problem is to favour the many over the individual. The upshot of this attitude iterated over generations is our current situation where politicians now prioritise institutions over individuals to the point where individuals are increasingly taking the role in society that animals once held. I hope the institutions are a little less ruthless with us than we have been to other species.

As such, I see it as a case by case situation; there may be times when it is better to save the one and let the many be killed.
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