If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Namelesss
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Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by Namelesss » January 13th, 2018, 6:20 pm

Londoner wrote:
January 13th, 2018, 5:27 am
Once again, the thread is about a paradox. A paradox is a self-contradictory statement, i.e. it says something is both true and false at the same time.
"If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?" is the OP question.
It is not a statement, it is a question. Statements can be paradoxical, I didn't know that questions can.
"God/We are all Knowing; we have free-will/choice." That is both true and false.
Nevertheless, 'If God is Omni-', then we cannot have 'free-will'. Simple as that. No paradox involved.
Neither is there paradox in the 'all Knowing' version of Omni-. As I have clearly demonstrated.
One further observation, you mention Occam's Razor (several times). You ought to read about this - carefully - because it doesn't say or imply what you think it does.
I Know the Razor quite well. Please feel free to educate me if I have misused it. Show me how, if you can.
The simplest theory that explains and predicts all the phenomena observed. Simple as that.
If you disagree, feel free...

Londoner
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Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by Londoner » January 15th, 2018, 5:58 am

Namelesss wrote:
January 13th, 2018, 6:20 pm
"If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?" is the OP question.
It is not a statement, it is a question.
It is two statements/propositions, linked. It asks if they can both be true.
Statements can be paradoxical, I didn't know that questions can.
A question is a statement with a question mark at the end; it asks 'is this true'.

Now notice, the first part is conditional. It says 'If God is all-knowing..' So it simply assumes something with that characteristic. It is not making a theological point about what God, if he exists, is like as a matter of fact. It is not about Jehovah or anyone else, it is really about Determinism. 'If the future can be predicted then how can we have free will'.

Just to remind you, my position is that the description 'all-knowing' does not make sense, so we never get onto the 'then how can I have free will?" bit.
"God/We are all Knowing; we have free-will/choice." That is both true and false.
Nevertheless, 'If God is Omni-', then we cannot have 'free-will'. Simple as that. No paradox involved.
Neither is there paradox in the 'all Knowing' version of Omni-. As I have clearly demonstrated.
There is certainly nothing clear in the above, but I am not concerned with your demonstration. My comment was that the term 'all-knowing' does not make sense. As far as I can tell, you do not address my comment as such. Your problem seems to be that I take a different approach to the OP to your own.
I Know the Razor quite well. Please feel free to educate me if I have misused it. Show me how, if you can.
The simplest theory that explains and predicts all the phenomena observed. Simple as that.
If you disagree, feel free...
You insert it for no reason. For example you write:
Occam's Razor requires the simplest theory that answers, describes, and predicts.
Nothing simpler.
Nothing more complicated.
It doesn't 'require' anything. It says that simple theories are better theories, but it doesn't follow that simple theories are more likely to be correct than complicated ones.

The quote above came after:
Nonsense! Aristotle's 'either/or.. true/false.. is an error. There is more and reality cannot be reduced to a t/f proposition. That toxic error has polluted Western thought since!


and before:
To expect Universal Truth to be reduced to an easily digestible 'either/or' (which is false; QM has demonstrated it's fallacy and obsolescence (Good bye Aristotle) and will, eventually, be found fruitless.
I cannot see that the remark on Occam's Razor has anything to do with either of those two remarks. It just seems to be thrown it at random. Which is why I can only guess that you have some esoteric interpretation of it.

Eduk
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Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by Eduk » January 15th, 2018, 6:20 am

The simplest theory that explains and predicts all the phenomena observed. Simple as that.
That isn't Occam's razor. Or at least it is partially Occam's razor but incomplete and a bit confused.

Here is how Wikipedia define it
His principle states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected or when you have two competing theories that make exactly the same predictions, the simpler one is the better.
Unknown means unknown.

Namelesss
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Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by Namelesss » January 15th, 2018, 9:26 pm

Londoner wrote:
January 15th, 2018, 5:58 am
Namelesss wrote:
January 13th, 2018, 6:20 pm
"If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?" is the OP question.
It is not a statement, it is a question.
It is two statements/propositions, linked. It asks if they can both be true.
No, there is an assumption/assertion (statement), and if the assumption is true, then comes the question.
And the answer is, of course, we cannot.
Despite all this niggling, call it what you like, an Omni- God or Universe or Reality or Nature, they are all the same thing.
I already explained how "ALL Knowing" is possible with no logical inconsistencies.
Even then, that is only one reason that 'free-will/choice' is impossible.
There are many diverse avenues demonstrating the same thing.
I answered the Op question, and will not be lured into endless niggling over question marks and semantics. You either understand what I said or you do not.

Namelesss
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Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by Namelesss » January 15th, 2018, 9:27 pm

Eduk wrote:
January 15th, 2018, 6:20 am
The simplest theory that explains and predicts all the phenomena observed. Simple as that.
That isn't Occam's razor. Or at least it is partially Occam's razor but incomplete and a bit confused.

Here is how Wikipedia define it
His principle states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected or when you have two competing theories that make exactly the same predictions, the simpler one is the better.
Yeah, that's what I said.
What's with all this niggling?
I answered the question.

Londoner
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Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by Londoner » January 16th, 2018, 4:40 am

Namelesss wrote:
January 15th, 2018, 9:26 pm

No, there is an assumption/assertion (statement), and if the assumption is true, then comes the question.
I referred to that in my post.
I already explained how "ALL Knowing" is possible with no logical inconsistencies.
I understand you believe that.
I answered the Op question, and will not be lured into endless niggling over question marks and semantics. You either understand what I said or you do not.
You are the one who can't let it go. I can, and will.

Namelesss
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Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by Namelesss » January 17th, 2018, 1:02 am

Londoner wrote:
January 16th, 2018, 4:40 am

I understand you believe that.
Why don't you just **** or get off the pot?!
If there is anything in what I offered that you feel capable of refuting, please do so.
Otherwise, just continue like this, sputtering out of sight.

Londoner
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Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by Londoner » January 17th, 2018, 8:49 am

Namelesss wrote:
January 17th, 2018, 1:02 am
Why don't you just **** or get off the pot?!
If there is anything in what I offered that you feel capable of refuting, please do so.
Otherwise, just continue like this, sputtering out of sight.
This thread is not your property. I'm afraid you will have to put up with my posts, should I continue to make them.

I made my point back at the end of page 3, and people are free to agree or disagree with it. That you personally don't like it isn't the defining judgement you think it is.

I am not bothered about refuting your own contributions because I cannot face trying to disentangle a meaning from them. But again, other people are free to engage with them, if they think it is worth the effort.

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LuckyR
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Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by LuckyR » January 17th, 2018, 2:01 pm

Londoner wrote:
January 17th, 2018, 8:49 am
Namelesss wrote:
January 17th, 2018, 1:02 am
Why don't you just **** or get off the pot?!
If there is anything in what I offered that you feel capable of refuting, please do so.
Otherwise, just continue like this, sputtering out of sight.
This thread is not your property. I'm afraid you will have to put up with my posts, should I continue to make them.

I made my point back at the end of page 3, and people are free to agree or disagree with it. That you personally don't like it isn't the defining judgement you think it is.

I am not bothered about refuting your own contributions because I cannot face trying to disentangle a meaning from them. But again, other people are free to engage with them, if they think it is worth the effort.
Good point (at the end of page 3). The idea of omniscience, omnipotence etc were likely invented a very long time ago without very much thought, as an expression of a maximum (as applied to gods, likely invented at the same time). Certainly there are plenty of examples of ancient gods without omniscience and omnipotence, but I digress.

As you point out, there are logic problems with the concepts. True, believers can hide behind the idea that human minds can't understand god-like existence, which is likely true, though that sort of (non)"logic", can be applied to anything and doesn't actually further discussion/understanding of anything.

Kind of reminds me of the Spinal Tap trope of "turning it up to eleven!!".
"As usual... it depends."

Londoner
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Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by Londoner » January 17th, 2018, 2:25 pm

LuckyR wrote:
January 17th, 2018, 2:01 pm
Good point (at the end of page 3). The idea of omniscience, omnipotence etc were likely invented a very long time ago without very much thought, as an expression of a maximum (as applied to gods, likely invented at the same time). Certainly there are plenty of examples of ancient gods without omniscience and omnipotence, but I digress.
Quite. They also referred to the Emperor in Constantinople as 'omnipotent', just meaning that there wasn't a co-Emperor - no implications that he was 'all-knowing' or could create stones that he couldn't lift etc.

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