Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Spectrum
Posts: 5161
Joined: December 21st, 2010, 1:25 am
Favorite Philosopher: Eclectic -Various

Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Spectrum »

Karpel Tunnel wrote: February 24th, 2018, 7:17 am
Spectrum wrote: February 23rd, 2018, 11:28 pm Note my reply to Eduk above.

Point is an original contract [Covenant] cannot be reformed if the immutable terms within the contract itself stated it cannot be reformed.

The whole Quran [core of Islam] encompass the full terms of the covenant to be entered with Allah.
When the Quran, example, permit the killing and oppression of non-Muslims, this term and provision of the covenant cannot be changed by any human being.

If the evil prone Muslims from a pool of 300 million Muslims killed and oppressed non-Muslims as a divine duty to please God to gain greater assurance to paradise with eternal life, WHO IN THE WORLD can insist they are wrong [when Allah stated it is permissible]?

Islam per se cannot be reformed.
If you are a fundamentalist Muslim. But Muslims can certainly reform Islam and have. According to YOUR interpretation it cannot be done. And I am sure some Muslims agree with you, but others clearly do not.
Actually the majority do not fully understand the essence of Islam.
The majority just follow the religion blindly without understanding the real principles and doctrines of Islam as per Quran [core and constitution of Islam].

The majority as driven more by their human values and thus turn a blind eye to the real evil elements in the Quran which are actually commanded by Allah and thus an imperative duty to follow those commands to be a good Muslim.

Some Muslims want to reform Islam by doing away or argue [by their own logic] away some of the evil laden verses in the Quran. But they do not understand, by logic, if they change the immutable contents in the Quran, they are no more a Muslim.

I suggest you study the Quran seriously to understand [not to agree] my point before you counter it.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Fanman
Posts: 3258
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Fanman »

"There are no true Scotsman [except me]. As has been demonstrated" :) .
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Eduk »

Spectrum the problem is that Islam is neither defined without contradiction or without interpretation.
By your definition of Islam there are no Muslims.
Unknown means unknown.
Spectrum
Posts: 5161
Joined: December 21st, 2010, 1:25 am
Favorite Philosopher: Eclectic -Various

Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Spectrum »

Eduk wrote: February 25th, 2018, 5:28 am Spectrum the problem is that Islam is neither defined without contradiction or without interpretation.
By your definition of Islam there are no Muslims.
Note Allah defined who is a Muslim in the Quran based on various criteria.
The most basic qualification to be a Muslim is to declare the shahada [entering into a covenant with Allah], comply with the 5 pillar of Islam, 6 pillars of Iman, and others to the best of one's ability.
There are 6,236 verses in the Quran.
The more one comply with basic requirements and as many of the verses [terms] then the greater the merits one will gain as a Muslim.
So there are many Muslims of different grades at present.

Note there are forgivable and unforgivable sins. Muslims who had committed forgivable sins can ask for forgiveness.

However one of the greatest unforgivable sin is to change the terms [reform] of the contract, example some moderates want to ignore and change certain verses to prevent the extremists referring to the verses and committing terrible evils in the name of the religion.
Many reformers want to take into consideration the historical and time factors the verses were revealed. There is nowhere in the Quran for such a provision.

But according to Allah, they have not been given the authority to change and interpret the meaning differently.
This is why Islam cannot be reformed.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Eduk »

Spectrum you yourself said Allah is omniscient. Omniscient is an undefined term which is wholly open to interpretation (for evidence I provide one of your other posts where there were many totally different interpretations).
I cannot follow something which is undefined. I therefore cannot be a Muslim. According to your definition of Muslim.
Unknown means unknown.
Spectrum
Posts: 5161
Joined: December 21st, 2010, 1:25 am
Favorite Philosopher: Eclectic -Various

Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Spectrum »

Eduk wrote: February 25th, 2018, 6:12 am Spectrum you yourself said Allah is omniscient. Omniscient is an undefined term which is wholly open to interpretation (for evidence I provide one of your other posts where there were many totally different interpretations).
I cannot follow something which is undefined. I therefore cannot be a Muslim. According to your definition of Muslim.
Allah had declared to be omniscient in many verses where Allah know everything.
  • “Say: Do you instruct Allah about your religion? But Allah knows all that is in the heavens and on the earth; Allah is Knowing of all things” Holy Qur'an (49:16)
What is so complicated with such a claim?

Note Allah stated one must comply to the best of one's ability.
Therefore if a Muslim has learning or physical disabilities, his/her limitations to comply fully are noted by Allah. e.g. a disabled person is not expected to go to war with disbelievers.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Eduk »

What is so complicated with such a claim?
How would you (a human) know if something else knew everything? Wouldn't you have to know what everything is? Do you claim to know everything?
Unknown means unknown.
Spectrum
Posts: 5161
Joined: December 21st, 2010, 1:25 am
Favorite Philosopher: Eclectic -Various

Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Spectrum »

Eduk wrote: February 25th, 2018, 6:57 am
What is so complicated with such a claim?
How would you (a human) know if something else knew everything? Wouldn't you have to know what everything is? Do you claim to know everything?
As far as I am concern personally, there is no such thing as can 'knowing everything' i.e. knowing absolutely everything. There is no need to know everything [100%] and I do not claim to know everything.

As far as God is concern, it has nothing to do with me.
It is within the theists' paradigm that theists claim their God is omniscient per the Quran and the fallible Muslim cannot know everything.
It is within this theists' paradigm where God is omniscient that Islam per se cannot be reformed because the cannot-know-everything-Muslims cannot reform the words of Allah-who-know-everything.

In addition, a Muslim is contractually [covenanted] bound that s/he cannot change the immutable words of Allah in the Quran. As such, by default there is no provision for any reformation of Islam.

In general, the majority of theistic Muslims are psychologically desperate and they jumped in to cling to whatever they think is to be Muslim but they are not aware of the logical technically and the small prints of the contract [covenant].
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Eduk »

Yes theists claim their God is omniscient. And theists cannot define, without interpretation, omniscient either.
Also, by your definition, a Muslim who does not understand the 'small print' is not a Muslim.
Your definition of Muslim is someone who 100% follows the Quran. But seen as that is impossible then, by your definition, there are no Muslims. Personally I don't find your definition useful.
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Burning ghost »

What is of no progressive use will eventually fall away. It is inevitable. In the meantime look on with fascination and learn from what you observe.

Ideas will wax and wane, and I expect there will be far worse to face in the future than a religious doctrine rife with infighting which is mostly culturally isolated from the modern world. Death comes from within not without.
AKA badgerjelly
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Eduk »

Aww that's pessimistic burning ghost. On the whole things seem to get better not worse. I mean I'm not saying everything 'will' improve but I'm also not saying it won't.
Unknown means unknown.
Spectrum
Posts: 5161
Joined: December 21st, 2010, 1:25 am
Favorite Philosopher: Eclectic -Various

Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Spectrum »

Eduk wrote: February 26th, 2018, 4:44 am Yes theists claim their God is omniscient. And theists cannot define, without interpretation, omniscient either.
Also, by your definition, a Muslim who does not understand the 'small print' is not a Muslim.
Your definition of Muslim is someone who 100% follows the Quran. But seen as that is impossible then, by your definition, there are no Muslims. Personally I don't find your definition useful.
I think you misunderstood my point. That is the danger within such a forum where to present the full picture is limited.

My intention was the following;
  • 100% Quran = 6,236 verses.

    100% compliance with 100% of 6,236 verses = 100% Muslim.
Obviously it is not practical for any Muslim to be a 100% Muslims, i.e. to comply 100% with the Quran.
The provision by Allah is one must do their best in accordance to their ability [physically and mentally].

As such a Muslim will be graded in accordance to how much they comply with the Quranic verses subject to meeting the basic obligatory requirements of entering into a contract [covenant] with Allah.

As long as a contracted-Muslims do not commit unforgivable sin, s/he will remain a Muslim with merits in relation to the degrees of compliance to the Quran, thus;
  • X% compliance of the 6,236 verses in the Quran = X % Muslim
  • 8:4 [Pickthall] Those [Muslims] are they who are in truth [ḥaqqan] believers [almu'minoona]. For them [Muslims] are grades [degrees] (of honour) with their Lord, and pardon, and a bountiful provision [wariz'qun].

    46:19. And for ALL [jinn & mankind] there will be ranks [DRJ; darajātin] from what they do, that He may pay [recompense, repay, compensate] them [jinn & mankind] for their deeds! and they will not be wronged [fairly judged].
Note compliance with certain terms has a 2x or 10x merits, especially the violent verses.
  • 2:261. The likeness of those [Muslims] who spend [NFQ; yunfiqūna] their wealth in Allah's way is as the likeness of a grain which groweth seven ears, in every ear a hundred grains [700 folds]. Allah giveth increase manifold to whom He will. Allah is All Embracing, All Knowing.
In Allah's way is linked to going to war or support wars against non-believers.

I hope you will read the quotes I have provided with a serious focus and note the above quotes are a merely a few of the many related ones.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Burning ghost »

Eduk wrote: February 26th, 2018, 5:04 am Aww that's pessimistic burning ghost. On the whole things seem to get better not worse. I mean I'm not saying everything 'will' improve but I'm also not saying it won't.
Reality often looks pessimistic. I merely said what doesn't work will fall away into oblivion due to disuse - that is generally a painful process and one we shouldn't willfully avoid because the consequences of doing so may well be far worse than we can imagine.

People are moved by their hearts to find reason, they are not moved by reason to find their heart.
AKA badgerjelly
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Eduk »

Spectrum it is funny as you seem to be missing my point.
The Quran is all made up. Thus it can be made up to be anything. The passage saying it can't be changed can be changed. Other passages can be changed and the contradiction with the passage saying it can't be changed can be ignored.
Unknown means unknown.
Spectrum
Posts: 5161
Joined: December 21st, 2010, 1:25 am
Favorite Philosopher: Eclectic -Various

Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Spectrum »

Eduk wrote: February 26th, 2018, 5:41 am Spectrum it is funny as you seem to be missing my point.
The Quran is all made up. Thus it can be made up to be anything. The passage saying it can't be changed can be changed. Other passages can be changed and the contradiction with the passage saying it can't be changed can be ignored.
I understand your point, and you are conflating the different perspectives, i.e.
  • 1. Non-Muslims perspective - the Quran is human-made. Thus this perspective will agree with your views above, i.e. everything can be changed, but note,

    2. The Muslims' view - the Quran is God-made - the Arabic Quran of the present is the pristine message directly from God and since it is commanded to be immutable it cannot be changed.
From the perspective of the Muslims, the God-made Quran defines 'What is Islam' and 'Who is a Muslim.' By definition, a Muslim is contracted to an immutable Quran, thus the Quran cannot be changed or reformed.

Thus if humans change, delete or ignore verses in the Quran, then such a Quran becomes a human-made Quran, i.e. a pseudo-Quran and those who believe in such a pseudo-Quran would be pseudo-Muslims. In this case there will be an infinite versions of Quran by different people.

What is critical with the all powerful God-made Quran is the promise of eternal life in a Paradise with virgins as a bonus. A Quran made by fallible humans [subjective] would not be have the credibility to fulfil such a promise.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021