Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Eduk
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Eduk »

We are going round in circles.

You are the one conflating perspectives. I am saying a Muslim can change the Quran and then immediately say it is immutable. This is an obvious contradiction to you and me. But what does logic have to do with it? It is as obvious that the Quran isn't immutable to me as if I saw someone change it with my own eyes.

Claims that the Quran is immutable are false and have nothing to do with logic.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Burning ghost »

Bible ... same **** and people were literally burnt to death for suggesting otherwise and many died due to politicized reforms that coincided with religion reform.

Move onto Heidegger ... the repetition is getting boring and its starting to remind me of RJG (not a good sign!)
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Spectrum
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Spectrum »

Eduk wrote: February 27th, 2018, 3:53 am We are going round in circles.

You are the one conflating perspectives. I am saying a Muslim can change the Quran and then immediately say it is immutable. This is an obvious contradiction to you and me. But what does logic have to do with it? It is as obvious that the Quran isn't immutable to me as if I saw someone change it with my own eyes.

Claims that the Quran is immutable are false and have nothing to do with logic.
What circles?

Note there is only one recognized definition of Islam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam
Islam (/ˈɪslɑːm/)[note 1] is a universalizing Abrahamic monotheistic religion teaching that there is only one God (Allah)[1] and that Muhammad is a messenger of God.
The critical point here is 'Muhammad is a messenger of God' and what determine what is Islam per se and Who is a Muslim are the words and messages revealed to Muhammad within the period 610-632 AD as codified in the Arabic Quran.

For the Muslim per se, there is only ONE Quran in Arabic sent by Allah and no other.

Allah commanded in the Quran, what is presented as the original Quran as delivered to Muhammad within the period 610-632 AD is immutable and any Muslim who change the terms of the Quran will go to HELL.


OK, a person can change the Quran and immediate say it is immutable.
In that case, that would not be the ORIGINAL Quran that Allah sent to Muhammad within the period 610-632AD.
Since is it not the original Quran, those who adopted such a corrupted "Quran" cannot be identified as Muslims per se.
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Spectrum
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Spectrum »

Burning ghost wrote: February 27th, 2018, 4:19 am Bible ... same **** and people were literally burnt to death for suggesting otherwise and many died due to politicized reforms that coincided with religion reform.

Move onto Heidegger ... the repetition is getting boring and its starting to remind me of RJG (not a good sign!)
It is not a good sign to tell others to meet your expectations.
As I had stated, this is philosophical forum where anyone is free to express their views [justified with arguments].
If you find it boring, use your discretion to move on.
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Eduk
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Eduk »

Spectrum Allah didn't send the Quran to Mohammed in the first place. I don't see how changing it makes it any less fake.
Again what you are doing is defining Muslims to your definition without accepting Muslims definition. I don't think that there is necessarily a problem with that but I would ask to what purpose? Why the need for your definition to be the one true definition? What is so special about you. And what if you are right? What difference does it make?
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Burning ghost
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Burning ghost »

Spectrum -

Boring? Who said that? I see little to no justified argumentation on your part. I see an outline of opinion lined further with circumstantial evidence and little attempt at self-refutation (even though you did say "maybe" it cannot reform elsewhere and now say it "cannot" - if you deny that then I'll provide link and quote if it pleasing you for me to show your own words. I am sure you haven't forgotten and if you have then I think you're done for.)
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Spectrum
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Spectrum »

Eduk wrote: February 27th, 2018, 10:57 am Spectrum Allah didn't send the Quran to Mohammed in the first place. I don't see how changing it makes it any less fake.
Again what you are doing is defining Muslims to your definition without accepting Muslims definition. I don't think that there is necessarily a problem with that but I would ask to what purpose? Why the need for your definition to be the one true definition? What is so special about you. And what if you are right? What difference does it make?
You are still conflating the non-Muslims views with the Muslims' view.

Problem is [based on what you have posted] you have not read the Quran.

I am not providing my own definition of 'Who is a Muslim' but I had relied on the default definition of a Muslim which is accepted by the majority of Muslims. Note, Who is a Muslim, i.e.
A Muslim (Arabic: مُسلِم‎) is someone who follows or practices Islam, a monotheistic Abrahamic religion.
Muslims consider the Quran, their holy book, to be the verbatim word of God as revealed to the Islamic prophet and messenger Muhammad.
What is critical in the definition of Islam are the following;
1. the verbatim word of God as
2. revealed to the Islamic prophet and messenger Muhammad within 610-632 AD.
Allah didn't send the Quran to Mohammed in the first place.
This may be your personal view.
According to the default definition, you are wrong. According to the default meaning of Islam and Who is a Muslim, Allah did send the Quran to Muhammad within 610 -632AD.

If the above [verbatim words] defined 'Islam' and 'Who is a Muslim', then changing the words [reforming] and still insisting it is Islam per se is wrong.

The above points are in accordance to the Muslims's view.

I don't understand where you get the idea I am making my own definition of 'who is a Muslim'.
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Spectrum
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Spectrum »

Burning ghost wrote: February 27th, 2018, 11:23 am Spectrum -

Boring? Who said that? I see little to no justified argumentation on your part. I see an outline of opinion lined further with circumstantial evidence and little attempt at self-refutation (even though you did say "maybe" it cannot reform elsewhere and now say it "cannot" - if you deny that then I'll provide link and quote if it pleasing you for me to show your own words. I am sure you haven't forgotten and if you have then I think you're done for.)
If I had stated elsewhere - "maybe" it cannot reform - then then it has to be an oversight/omission to explain further.
If I really meant that, I would not have raised the above OP. I have never had such intention.
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Eduk
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Eduk »

Ok well maybe Islam cannot reform (under your definition). But then very few Muslims follow Islam (under your definition) so it's a non problem.
Should the billions of everyday average Muslims who don't want to kill me be called Muslim2.0? Can anyone think of a catchier name?
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Spectrum
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Spectrum »

Eduk wrote: February 28th, 2018, 3:58 am Ok well maybe Islam cannot reform (under your definition). But then very few Muslims follow Islam (under your definition) so it's a non problem.
Should the billions of everyday average Muslims who don't want to kill me be called Muslim2.0? Can anyone think of a catchier name?
It is not my definition.
Islam by its inherent definition as per Allah's words cannot be reformed because Allah do not allow Islam to be reformed.

As I had stated
100% compliance with Quran = 100% Muslim.
Those Muslims who do not want to kill you would be X% Muslims, i.e. either ignorant or avoiding the hateful and violent verses. They are lesser grade Muslims and will remain Muslims until they have committed an unforgivable sin or reject Islam voluntarily.
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Eduk
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Eduk »

How would Allah stop Islam from being reformed? I didn't think you were a Muslim?
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Burning ghost
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Burning ghost »

Spectrum -

Either way you're suffering form the "those murderers aren't true Buddhists!" yet when the peaceful Muslim doe something they are not "being true to Islam and should be out killing infidels!"

That is the extent of your rhetoric underneath the thin veil of "evidences." If you wish to define Islam as inherently "evil" then of course it is "evil." The problem is you expect everyone to adhere to your own self-made definition - and as has been pointed out numerous times (over several months) Islam is not historically the only doctrine that has set out to persecute other ideological stances with bloody and deeply damaging results.

All religions are part of society and therefore have a political element to them. Some nations have guarded against religious influence in governments and others have done so to a lesser extent. Some have reformed to suit the political landscape (by force or natural progression) and others have moved in part toward feeding political movements that suit the institutional cause (sometimes in direct conflict with the social aims.)

Is it currently difficult to reform Islam? I think so! In the future when conflicts settle down and people pay less heed to dogma; I think there is room for reform and I know people within the religious circle are already trying to instigate reforms - those "sects" I guess you would refuse to admit within your definition of "Islam" though (that is the heart of the disagreement.)

Underneath it all we're talking about tribalism and general xenophobia. Religions are just attached to these innate reactions to the "alien other." If anything the universal existence of religious experiences tells us there is something in common in the human psyche (that is my view.) Sadly religion as a institution, as an extension of pedagogical vehicle, has become entwined in how people should behave and how laws should be adhered to, and rules followed.

Ideas only survive if they can be seen from a new perspective or manifest a worthy outcome for the majority. Slowly but surely the stone axe fell into disrepute for no better method, only from a new form of material manifestation. Religions go through the same process and we've yet to figure out where in the modern era (especially in more atheistic terms and realism) where and how religion can make use if the current "material" of existence. We certainly cannot do without tradition, and it is through traditions that religions hold the biggest sway over our human condition - even the non-believers, the non-deists, have some foundational truth of traditional experience.

The very last chapter of Eliade's The Sacred and The Profane begins to point at this sacred background in all human behavior (be it historically known or emptily acted out through ceremony - birth days and ritual that announce certain passages of the human journey through life.)

I'm with Heraclitus.
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Spectrum
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Spectrum »

Eduk wrote: February 28th, 2018, 5:00 am How would Allah stop Islam from being reformed? I didn't think you were a Muslim?
As commanded by Allah in the Quran Islam cannot be reformed, period!
As such the question of reforming Islam is moot and a non-starter.

If anyone were to discuss the reformation of 'Islam' then that 'Islam' is not the original Islam that was reveal to Muhammad between 610-632AD.

Allah [according to Quran] will not stop [given freewill to people] from inventing their own version of 'Islam' and reforming their self-created Islam to new versions. Where these people commit an unforgivable sin [corrupt the Quran, and the likes], they will be burnt in HELL.

Thus it is the threat of Hell and not getting an eternal life in Paradise would stop any Muslim from trying to reform Islam.
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Spectrum
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Spectrum »

Burning ghost wrote: February 28th, 2018, 5:14 am Spectrum -

Either way you're suffering form the "those murderers aren't true Buddhists!" yet when the peaceful Muslim does something they are not "being true to Islam and should be out killing infidels!"
Note I am being very objective here by referring to the Constitution [holy texts, sutras] of the respective religion. Have you heard of Buddhists [rogue ones] killing others in the name of the religion, quoting Buddhist verses or shouting Buddha-u-Akbar??
That is the extent of your rhetoric underneath the thin veil of "evidences." If you wish to define Islam as inherently "evil" then of course it is "evil." The problem is you expect everyone to adhere to your own self-made definition - and as has been pointed out numerous times (over several months) Islam is not historically the only doctrine that has set out to persecute other ideological stances with bloody and deeply damaging results.
Again I am very objective in this case by relying on the the Constitution [holy texts, sutras] of the respective religion.
It is so evident from the Quran - the constitution of Islam - which blatantly exposes itself as being inherently evil [as defined].

Note I am expressing my views objective, thus there is no need for me to expect everyone to adhere to my views.

Note the Quran is easily available and anyone can read it critically and objectively to determine whether what I claimed is true or not.

Now your problem and limitation is you have not read the Quran to understand it thoroughly thus your critique of my view is not credible at all. Until your read the Quran to understand it thoroughly, you need to provide reservation on your own views.
All religions are part of society and therefore have a political element to them. Some nations have guarded against religious influence in governments and others have done so to a lesser extent. Some have reformed to suit the political landscape (by force or natural progression) and others have moved in part toward feeding political movements that suit the institutional cause (sometimes in direct conflict with the social aims.)

Is it currently difficult to reform Islam? I think so! In the future when conflicts settle down and people pay less heed to dogma; I think there is room for reform and I know people within the religious circle are already trying to instigate reforms - those "sects" I guess you would refuse to admit within your definition of "Islam" though (that is the heart of the disagreement.)
Technically and inherently, the Islam [proper] cannot be reformed and that is commanded by Allah in the Quran.
If anyone are doing any reformation, they are reforming their own self-created pseudo Islam and not the original Islam as specifically revealed to Muhammad between 610-632AD.
Underneath it all we're talking about tribalism and general xenophobia. Religions are just attached to these innate reactions to the "alien other." If anything the universal existence of religious experiences tells us there is something in common in the human psyche (that is my view.) Sadly religion as a institution, as an extension of pedagogical vehicle, has become entwined in how people should behave and how laws should be adhered to, and rules followed.

Ideas only survive if they can be seen from a new perspective or manifest a worthy outcome for the majority. Slowly but surely the stone axe fell into disrepute for no better method, only from a new form of material manifestation. Religions go through the same process and we've yet to figure out where in the modern era (especially in more atheistic terms and realism) where and how religion can make use if the current "material" of existence. We certainly cannot do without tradition, and it is through traditions that religions hold the biggest sway over our human condition - even the non-believers, the non-deists, have some foundational truth of traditional experience.

The very last chapter of Eliade's The Sacred and The Profane begins to point at this sacred background in all human behavior (be it historically known or emptily acted out through ceremony - birth days and ritual that announce certain passages of the human journey through life.)

I'm with Heraclitus.
Islam is a special case, it is the only religion that claim it is based on the verbatim word of Allah revealed to Muhammad between 610-632AD and nothing else.
A Muslim (Arabic: مُسلِم‎) is someone who follows or practices Islam, a monotheistic Abrahamic religion. Muslims consider the Quran, their holy book, to be the verbatim word of God as revealed to the Islamic prophet and messenger Muhammad. -wiki
Islam is based on the Arabic Quran which till the present contains the exact and unchanged word for word as revealed by Allah during a specific period [610-632AD] to a specific person [Muhammad] in a specific location [Mecca-Medina, Arabia Peninsula].

Therefore if any of the words, verses or meaning are changed, then it cannot represent the original Islam as intended by Allah. Thus Islam as commanded by Allah cannot be reformed.

For example;
  • Quran 98:6. Lo! those [infidels] who disbelieve [KFR: kafarū], among the People of the Scripture [Jews and Christians] and the idolaters [l-mush'rikīna], will abide in fire of hell. They [infidels] are the worst [ShRR; sharru] of created beings. [BRA: l-bariyati].
If any Muslim were try to reform/change to say the Infidels, the People of the Scripture [Jews and Christians] and the idolaters [l-mush'rikīna] are best of created beings or good people, then they would have contradicted and went against the words of Allah.

If they insist on the change/reform then they would have committed an unforgivable sin and thus destined to HELL after Judgement Day.

Note there are thousands of verses in the Quran that would need to be changed/reformed if anyone were to make the Quran totally good [zero evil element].

Most Muslims would not dare to change the contents of the Quran and where they are aware of any unpalatable elements, they will pretend it is not there or they try to interpret it differently.

What is critical is Muslims will not dare to challenge the Arabic words in the Quran from Allah.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Burning ghost »

Spectrum wrote: February 28th, 2018, 10:25 pm
Eduk wrote: February 28th, 2018, 5:00 am How would Allah stop Islam from being reformed? I didn't think you were a Muslim?
As commanded by Allah in the Quran Islam cannot be reformed, period!
As such the question of reforming Islam is moot and a non-starter.

If anyone were to discuss the reformation of 'Islam' then that 'Islam' is not the original Islam that was reveal to Muhammad between 610-632AD.

Allah [according to Quran] will not stop [given freewill to people] from inventing their own version of 'Islam' and reforming their self-created Islam to new versions. Where these people commit an unforgivable sin [corrupt the Quran, and the likes], they will be burnt in HELL.

Thus it is the threat of Hell and not getting an eternal life in Paradise would stop any Muslim from trying to reform Islam.
So you're zealot. Should zealots be given a platform to preach from? You've read the Quran so you're now tainted.

Your response to me is merely repetition. Say something new or say nothing at all. You're posts look like by SPAM folder. Same **** over and over again. I honestly don't see what you hope to gain by spouting the same thing (almost word for word) again and again?

What is more your "views" are not even well thought out. You've got a chip on your shoulder and you've not gone to any depth ... that is not opening for you to repeat for hundrenth time how much time you've spent reading this or that because it is clea renough to me you lack intellectual integrity.

BYE! (blocked) Feel free to talk to yourself in your own little echo chamber.
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