We will continue to HATE you until you embrace ...

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Eduk
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Re: We will continue to HATE you until you embrace ...

Post by Eduk »

Spectrum. What is the end goal of your empathy and compassion?
You seem to be insisting that someone isn't a Muslim unless they hate, and want to kill, all non Muslims? What is the purpose of that? Do you want Muslims to hate and kill all non Muslims? Or do you imagine being non hateful and non murderous Muslims will simply agree with you and become secular? I would say the former is more likely than the later.
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Burning ghost
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Re: We will continue to HATE you until you embrace ...

Post by Burning ghost »

Spectrum -

I am certainly not asking you to "shut up" and I've been vocal in my defense of you to say what you want to say (I've even offered to become a mod so you could get your posts posted if others were being arsey about it.)

I said :
It says the same thing for Judaism and Christianity. Those sentiments were lifted from the Old Testament. So it is inherently the Old Testament that is to blame ... that is your logic.
Your reply:
This is ridiculous. All evils acts of humans are traceable to some history and ancestry elements, so we blame them?
Each must take responsibility for whatever is within their constitution that represent their ideology.
Yes, it is ridiculous. So you agree you're being ridiculous! About time. Someone reads the Quran so they are therefore "evil"? People associate with Islam so they are therefore "evil"? You've been studying the Quran so you must be more "evil" than me.

Was a large amount of the more brutal aspects of the Quran lifted from the Old Testament or not? You're the scholar of the Quran so you tell me. If someone reads the Quran and doesn't think "non-believers" should be "condemned" in any way, then are they not "Muslim" in your eyes? This kind of reminds me of someone I watched recently in a debate calling a British Indian, born in India, "white" simply because he was a conservative and understood the difference between racism in the UK and racism in India as being gulfs apart.

Empirical facts don't make the position of your argument any more sensible. All the piled up facts in the world set out as emptily bolstering your personal view doesn't make your argument "true." I see refusal to compare and contrast any evidence within a broader and more inclusive world view. If you have an opinion of what the picture is before you set out to construct it what do you think will happen.

I don't think you'll find anyone here saying Islam hasn't been used to propagate violence in a political capacity. You're looking at some very old and isolated traditions and cultural ways of life being dragging into the modern western scheme of things. Islam is merely a circumstance, and in part a catalyst (among other catalysts.)

IF I may make an analogy to show I understand that you've put time and effort in here ...

I see this as a puzzle, a puzzle that we are guessing there to be say 10,000 pieces too, and of which some pieces may have been completely lost to us forever regardless of how acutely we look and infer this or that. I see your lot here as having created a pretty nice and consistent picture; kudos to you for that. The issue I have is you've, by my speculation, only put together around a hundred pieces of this particular puzzle and the issue is you've got a clear picture, BUT only a clear picture of one small portion of the whole puzzle - that is your boon and your prison. As for myself I am not even dealing with your picture and the current issue of Islam, but my picture (again only a small portion of my personal interest) is broad enough to say there is an incredible amount you're not looking at that may overwhelm your particular take of the "full" picture. You think your own little corner is centre stage, the main event; I see it as influential background scenery - maybe a little more important than I think, maybe a lot less important.
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Spectrum
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Re: We will continue to HATE you until you embrace ...

Post by Spectrum »

Eduk wrote: February 27th, 2018, 11:01 am Spectrum. What is the end goal of your empathy and compassion?
I have stated before, not being a Buddhist per se, I have adopted one of the Boddhisattva vow's to be compassionate to all humans.
You seem to be insisting that someone isn't a Muslim unless they hate, and want to kill, all non Muslims? What is the purpose of that? Do you want Muslims to hate and kill all non Muslims? Or do you imagine being non hateful and non murderous Muslims will simply agree with you and become secular? I would say the former is more likely than the later.
You missed my point.
As I had stated many times, my quest is based on empirical evidences, i.e. the following statistics;

Image

and the whole loads of evil acts and violence committed by SOME Muslims around the world.

I understand ALL evils acts by humans must be addressed and resolved as much as possible.

However, I feel I have the knowledge to contribute to address Islamic-related evils and thus my focus on Islam.

I have highligted the main proximate root causes of Islamic-based evil to the following;
  • 1. the active evil tendency in a percentile of people
    2. the tons of evil laden elements in the Quran - the core constitution of Islam.
I am not personally 'insisting that someone isn't a Muslim unless they hate.'
It is the Quran - words of Allah which condone hatred and thus to be a Muslim in accordance to the Quran, one will hate non-Muslims.
Do you want Muslims to hate and kill all non Muslims?
Where do you get such idea? That's the Cathy Newman dirty tactic!
It is not me but too be a better Muslim, one will inevitably be led to hate non-Muslims and a percentile [not all] of Muslims will do that.

Note, the resulting hatred of being a Muslim is expressed by the people of I.S.I.S in the article in the OP above.
Note no good-Muslims would dare to express their own views except and unless it is from Allah. Thus the assertion by the above extremist Islamists, i.e.
"We hate you, first and foremost, because you are disbelievers;"
can only come from the Quran - the words of Allah.

If you read the Quran, you will note that the concept of hatred is from the Quran - the words of Allah, e.g. ( this is merely 1 verse among 1000s)
34:45. Those [of old] before them [Quraish infidels] denied, and these have not attained a tithe of that which We bestowed on them (of old); yet they [Quraish infidels] denied My messengers. How intense then was My abhorrence (of them)! [NKR; nakiri, repugnance]
The ethos of 'hate' of the infidels [the 'them'] is one central theme of the Quran.

My point:
The Islamic related evil acts and violence are very real and evident.
What are you doing about that? Be an ostrich?
Whilst you may not be able to do anything physically but at least you should sound out your views, thoughts and solutions in a forum like here.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Eduk
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Re: We will continue to HATE you until you embrace ...

Post by Eduk »

I have sounded my thoughts. My thoughts are that you cannot take a reasonable person and turn them into a murderer with a book alone. You can however take a reasonable person and turn them into a murderer through some kind of extreme circumstances (such as the death of a loved one) or through influence from groups and or authority figures. For example the Milgram experiment wouldn't work in book form. It needs a dressing of authority. People in white coats. Other people doing what the people in white coats say. An authentic looking building and so on. Or to give another example a group of self proclaimed leaders can say that a book says all sorts of things and then prey on the vulnerable in order to coerce them to whichever goal they can attain. The Quran on its own would be no more convincing than a story about Zeus.
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Spectrum
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Re: We will continue to HATE you until you embrace ...

Post by Spectrum »

Eduk wrote: February 28th, 2018, 3:50 am I have sounded my thoughts. My thoughts are that you cannot take a reasonable person and turn them into a murderer with a book alone. You can however take a reasonable person and turn them into a murderer through some kind of extreme circumstances (such as the death of a loved one) or through influence from groups and or authority figures.

For example the Milgram experiment wouldn't work in book form. It needs a dressing of authority. People in white coats. Other people doing what the people in white coats say. An authentic looking building and so on. Or to give another example a group of self proclaimed leaders can say that a book says all sorts of things and then prey on the vulnerable in order to coerce them to whichever goal they can attain. The Quran on its own would be no more convincing than a story about Zeus.
I did not say nor implied it is the book alone that trigger a person to kill in general (there are exceptions].

In practice of Islam, it is driven by a band of the clergy, i.e. the ulamas which has great influences on their followers generally and especially when they gather as a compulsory congregation every Friday.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulama
In addition, there is now the power of the internet to reach more Muslims than before.
Within this group of influential people, again there is likely to be 20% [conservatively] who are evil prone. Note - this one among the 1000s of such ..


Egyptian Cleric: "It's our duty to hate the Jews as part of our faith"


These are the Miligram-white-coats conveying the authority of the all-powerful-God where Muslims are at its mercy in desperation to go to Paradise with eternal life. As such these ulama white-coats are MORE influential than the Miligram-white-coats.

If the discussion were to proceed into greater depth I would definitely bring in the Miligram-white-coats as the greater catalyst to compel [subliminal] the evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils as a divine duty. There are other additional catalysts that drive the evil prone to commit terrible evils.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Burning ghost
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Re: We will continue to HATE you until you embrace ...

Post by Burning ghost »

Buddhist Doctrine:
In the western channel branch of the energy centre of perfect resource, within one's throat,
Is the greatest Awareness Holder of the Great Seal,
Red, radiant, smiling and embraced by the Red Dakini.
She holds a blood-filled skull and curved knife,
Raised in the gesture of pointing to the sky.
May the awareness holders of Buddha-speech protect all living beings!

...

May these two blood-drinking deities of the Sugata
Family, guide all beings to liberation!

...

The three right arms brandish a varja (note: An Indian weapon), a skull, and an axe,
And the left hold a bell, a blood-filled skull, and a plough shaft.
There is also mention of a "noose of entrails"

So, is this "evil"? Could one possibly imagine these words being used in certain political circumstances to produce an uprising of farmers? Just a thought :wink:

note: There is pronounced repetition of these words in these hymns.
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LuckyR
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Re: We will continue to HATE you until you embrace ...

Post by LuckyR »

Spectrum wrote: February 27th, 2018, 1:15 am
LuckyR wrote: February 26th, 2018, 4:38 am Depends on who gets to define "core". Personally I prefer statistical definitions to arbitrary opinions. Therefore by my measure : no.
What is 'American' in essence and legally is defined by the US Constitution [changeable by the majority] and nothing else. Thus an individual or group cannot unilaterally write their own constitutions to claim they are legally Americans.

It is the same with 'What is Islam' and 'Who is a Muslim', these definitions are specifically defined in the Quran - the constitution of Islam.
Therefore the ethos - the core essence of Islam cannot be determined by statistical definitions of the majority or otherwise.

I believe the shortfall here is you have not read the Quran thoroughly to understand the core ethos and essence of 'What is Islam' and 'Who is a Muslim'.

My claim is the people of I.S.I.S are more in alignment and compliance with the core and other conditions and terms of the Constitution of Islam than the so called moderates. This can be done by using the 6,236 verses of the Quran -the Constitution of Islam - as a checklist and counting the number of terms complied.
You make complete theoretical sense. But those of us here in the Real World have little use for your ideas. For example: if I check the box on the census that I am a "christian", am I a christian? We can go round and round about what the definition of a christian is and who gets to define it, but where the rubber hits the road, my answer increases the "christian" category by one.

Scholars by their nature delve into the minutia of ancient texts. Good for them. OTOH, practitioners of religions change the practice of the religion (and thus the criteria for numerous definitions associated with said religion) routinely. Thus why there are well appreciated factions such as "reformists", "fundamentalists" etc.

Here in the West we are very comfortable allowing that regular folk can be Jews, ie that not only Hasidics and their ilk are true Jews. Why is it that there re those who argue that only the Koran can decide who a true Muslim is?

Basically, what is the conclusion if a self described member of any religion is well known to break a central tenet of the literature of the religion? Are they a member?
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: We will continue to HATE you until you embrace ...

Post by Namelesss »

Spectrum wrote: February 26th, 2018, 3:01 am I.S.I.S reveal 6 reasons why they despise Westerners
"the core ethos of (any) religion" is vanity, ego, sin/Pride, ignorance, discrimination, hatefulness, judgment, etc...!
Fortunately that is left behind when progressing from egoic religion to transcendental mysticism!

"In the future there will be no religion! We will all be mystics, or we will not be!" - OSHO
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Re: We will continue to HATE you until you embrace ...

Post by Namelesss »

No different than Xtianity!
Spectrum
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Re: We will continue to HATE you until you embrace ...

Post by Spectrum »

LuckyR wrote: March 1st, 2018, 5:50 pm
Spectrum wrote: February 27th, 2018, 1:15 am What is 'American' in essence and legally is defined by the US Constitution [changeable by the majority] and nothing else. Thus an individual or group cannot unilaterally write their own constitutions to claim they are legally Americans.

It is the same with 'What is Islam' and 'Who is a Muslim', these definitions are specifically defined in the Quran - the constitution of Islam.
Therefore the ethos - the core essence of Islam cannot be determined by statistical definitions of the majority or otherwise.

I believe the shortfall here is you have not read the Quran thoroughly to understand the core ethos and essence of 'What is Islam' and 'Who is a Muslim'.

My claim is the people of I.S.I.S are more in alignment and compliance with the core and other conditions and terms of the Constitution of Islam than the so called moderates. This can be done by using the 6,236 verses of the Quran -the Constitution of Islam - as a checklist and counting the number of terms complied.
You make complete theoretical sense.

But those of us here in the Real World have little use for your ideas. For example: if I check the box on the census that I am a "christian", am I a christian? We can go round and round about what the definition of a christian is and who gets to define it, but where the rubber hits the road, my answer increases the "christian" category by one.

Scholars by their nature delve into the minutia of ancient texts. Good for them. OTOH, practitioners of religions change the practice of the religion (and thus the criteria for numerous definitions associated with said religion) routinely. Thus why there are well appreciated factions such as "reformists", "fundamentalists" etc.

Here in the West we are very comfortable allowing that regular folk can be Jews, ie that not only Hasidics and their ilk are true Jews. Why is it that there re those who argue that only the Koran can decide who a true Muslim is?

Basically, what is the conclusion if a self described member of any religion is well known to break a central tenet of the literature of the religion? Are they a member?
It is stated in the Quran, Who is a basically Muslim and who are the progressive Muslims. A person is a Muslim when s/he had recited the shahādah. Babies born of Muslim parents are also by default a Muslim to be confirmed by their recitation of the shahada when they are capable to proper speech and understanding.
Recitation of the shahādah is the most common statement of faith for Muslims.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahada
Thus when on recite the shahada it is implied one has entered into a covenant [contract] with Allah where the Quran contains all the terms and conditions of the religious contract.
This shahada is recited by Muslims - young and old - on a regular basis in their prayers.

The condition of compliance on each member is to do their best to their existing abilities. Thus if one is severely handicapped one is not expected to go to war, if poor - don't have to pay zakat, etc.
As for non-compliance, there are a listing of forgivable and unforgivable sins. For example if a Muslim missed a prayer or prayers this is a forgivable sin and if they realized their omission and ask for forgiveness they are likely to be forgiven [up to Allah who know all] if they other merits.
Why is it that there re those who argue that only the Koran can decide who a true Muslim is?
Note the general definition of 'Muslim';
A Muslim (Arabic: مُسلِم‎) is someone who follows or practices Islam, a monotheistic Abrahamic religion. Muslims consider the Quran, their holy book, to be the verbatim word of God as revealed to the Islamic prophet and messenger Muhammad. -wiki
A Muslim is defined very specifically in relation to the specific verbatim words from Allah through the mind and mouth of Muhammad and the period between 610-632AD.

Therefore if there is a change to the above conditions, it would be a Categorical Error/Mistake to define a person as a Muslim other than the above conditions.

At present there are many disputes among the 'Muslims' themselves as to whether they are proper Muslims. For example the Ahmadiyyahs, Shias, Sufis and other sects who claim to be 'Muslim' are not recognized [completely] by the majority Sunni [90% of 1.5+ billion] officially as Muslim-proper.
Thus to determine whether the Ahmadiyyahs, Shias, Sufis and other sects 'objectively' one will need to established whether they fulfill the criteria stated in their God-delivered Constitution which had not been changed since it was first revealed to Muhammad.
Technically the Shias are definitely Muslims at the core, they only differ on who should have been the successor [not mentioned in the Quran] to Muhammad.

Therefore to be objective we have to fall back to the Constitution of Islam - the Quran - to decide who is a Muslim and what is Islam.

We can also determine objectively who is not a Muslim [if they claim they are Muslims] from the Constitution of the Quran. There is no room for subjective opinions as far as the immutable words of God are concerned.

So my views not only make complete theoretical sense, they also make very practical and objective sense.

When the majority of 'moderate' condemn the jihadists are not 'Muslims' WHO ARE THEY as fallible humans to decide and say so.
To be objective, one has to fall back on the Constitution of Islam, i.e. the Quran which is directly from Allah.
The fact is, objectively, the jihadists by technical definition are basically Muslims but they are 'more' Muslims than the so-called moderate Muslims by the fact the jihadists complied objectively to more additional commands of Allah.
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Spectrum
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Re: We will continue to HATE you until you embrace ...

Post by Spectrum »

Namelesss wrote: March 1st, 2018, 11:04 pm No different than Xtianity!
As I had argued many times,
there are more evil laden elements in the OT than the Quran.

The difference is there is an overriding pacifist maxim, love your enemies, love your neighbor, love this, that.. in the NT for Christianity.
If a Christian killed his enemies, what do you think God and Jesus will say when they meet on Judgment Day.
Surely Jesus aka God will have to keep to its words.
I bet Jesus/God would be scolding the Christian who had killed his enemies;
WTF!! I told you to love your enemies not to kill them!
The Christian killer will have to plea for mercy if he had no choice but to kill in that situation, else it would be eternal Hell for non-compliance.

On the other hand, there is no overriding pacifist maxim in the Quran.
Instead Muslims are encouraged and permitted to kill non-Muslims upon certain conditions [which are very loose].
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Spectrum
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Re: We will continue to HATE you until you embrace ...

Post by Spectrum »

Burning ghost wrote: February 28th, 2018, 5:35 am Buddhist Doctrine:
The three right arms brandish a varja (note: An Indian weapon), a skull, and an axe,
And the left hold a bell, a blood-filled skull, and a plough shaft.
There is also mention of a "noose of entrails"

So, is this "evil"? Could one possibly imagine these words being used in certain political circumstances to produce an uprising of farmers? Just a thought :wink:

note: There is pronounced repetition of these words in these hymns.
I am now very hesitant to discuss with you since I now discovered you can flip emotionally out of the blue merely from discussing controversial views.

Since the above is a distinct point I will address it.

It is true there are evil elements in various Buddhist sutras especially in the Mahayana ones.

There are 'only' 6,236 verses in the Quran [the immutable constitution of Islam] but has more than 3400++ verses that has evil laden elements.
On the other hand, there are hundreds of sutras within the various sects of Buddhism where many has more than 6,000++ verses. As such, relatively where there are evil elements, these are more like needles in a haystack.
This is why we do not hear of Buddhists quoting these 'needles in haystack' verses to justify their evil acts.
Besides these verses are not in the context of an overall evil modes/ethos like those in the Quran.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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QuarterMaster69
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Re: We will continue to HATE you until you embrace ...

Post by QuarterMaster69 »

Spectrum wrote: February 26th, 2018, 3:01 am
1. Because you are disbelievers
"We hate you, first and foremost, because you are disbelievers;
you reject the oneness of Allah – whether you realize it or not – by making partners for Him in worship, you blaspheme against Him, claiming that He has a son, you fabricate lies against His prophets and messengers, and you indulge in all manner of devilish practices."

It reads: "What’s important to understand here is that although some might argue that your foreign policies are the extent of what drives our hatred,
this particular reason for hating you is secondary, hence the reason we addressed it at the end of the above list.

"The fact is,
even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to HATEyou because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam."
The question is whether the above comply with the core ethos of the religion.

Agree/Disagree?

Views?
The above is the core ethos of ISIS plain and simple. Most Muslims are not out killing people for not believing in Allah.
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Re: We will continue to HATE you until you embrace ...

Post by Spectrum »

QuarterMaster69 wrote: March 7th, 2018, 1:53 pm
Spectrum wrote: February 26th, 2018, 3:01 am The question is whether the above comply with the core ethos of the religion.
Agree/Disagree?
Views?
The above is the core ethos of I.SIS plain and simple. Most Muslims are not out killing people for not believing in Allah.
This is a philosophical forum, thus one need to think more deeper and wider.

Note my thesis;
  • 1. DNA wise ALL humans has the potential to commit evil and violence
    2. A percentile [say 20% conservatively] are born with an active evil tendency.
    3. Thus 20% of Muslim i.e. 300 million :shock: are born with an active evil tendency.
    4. Those with an active evil tendency are easily triggered by evil elements to commit evil and violence
    5. More than 51% of the verses in the Quran are loaded with evil elements [hatred against non-believers] of various degrees.
    6. Therefore note the inherent potential of evilness from Islam.
The purpose of the OP is to show;
- the people of ISIS are Muslims, in fact more Islamic than the moderate Muslims.
- the terrible evilness/hatred of being more Islamic.
- the inherent potential of evilness from Islam

What is frightening is we have a pool of 300 million :shock: Muslims who has the potential of being like people of I.SIS -noting the terrible evils and violence they have committed.

This is why despite the defeat of I.SIS in Iraq and Syria the evil prone Muslims are still emerging everywhere around the World. Don't be too sure, they could appear out of nowhere in your neighborhood! :shock:
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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