Who Is God?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Atreyu
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Atreyu »

Fanman wrote: March 19th, 2018, 3:15 pmI haven't been an agnostic for very long, but in my experience this is not an accurate description of the agnostic position. The reason that I say “I don't know” is simply because I don't. Why should I believe either way when I don't perceive any compelling evidence for God, but am not sure that God doesn't exist? If something cannot be proven or disproved then saying “I don't know” is not unreasonable or illogical. I see no “virtue” in thinking within the spectrum of what I perceive as reason, I just tend to since becoming agnostic – I don't see why I should arrive at a conclusion through speculation of what could be, but what I don't know is. Whether a philosophy is “dark” or “light” is clearly a matter of perspective, if one thinks in those terms. It is a trademark of fundamentalists to believe that they are of the “light” and everyone else (who doesn't agree with or conform to their way of thinking) is of the “dark”.
Well, you do know that as an agnostic you can have an opinion, don't you? Being an agnostic merely means that you acknowledge that the question is not known. You don't act as if you know. But you can still have an opinion, either way. It's just that in this case, you know its value.

I claim to be an agnostic because, when considering this question, the first thing I like to do is to assert that (ideally obviously) it cannot be known. As opposed to the position of believers and atheists who act as if they know or even could know.

But I take a "strong" position in favor of "higher powers" existing. I say "strong" because of the totality of all of my life experience and reasoning the question out. In fact, while admitting the question cannot be ordinarily known, I find it an almost absurd position to say that probably there are no other entities in the Universe that are much much greater than humans, simply because we cannot see them. Of course we could not see them, that's hardly even evidence of their non-existence. We could not see them any more than a red blood cell in our bodies could see us. Nonetheless, the Universe makes much more sense to me when I put humans pretty low on the "cosmic totem pole", rather than up closer to the top.
Eduk
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Eduk »

But atreyu what exactly are you claiming atheists believe?
Unknown means unknown.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Sy Borg »

DM, you have proved as closed as any other theist. Not once in that entire exchange did you show even the slightest curiosity in what I had to say unless it pertained to your own comments or ideas. The discussion from your end was entirely about you and your ideas, with mine completely dismissed.

You are the more closed of us by far.
Dark Matter wrote: March 19th, 2018, 4:35 pm
Eduk wrote: March 19th, 2018, 2:57 pmDM's version of God seems to be the anti god to me. Not physical. Not knowable. Not caused. Not not not etc. For me to try to grasp DMs God I merely have to try to imagine a God like being and then I know it's not that.
That's good, very good. It means I'm getting through. It's called apophatic theology, also known as negative theology or via negativa.
Now I know why you were defensive with me earlier about "the god of the gaps".

Your god is inherently a gap. Congrats, you have devised as impregnable a position via a mental loop as the early theists did when any questioning of God's existence was considered a failure of faith. If one worships The Void, then I suppose it wouldn't be offensive if someone thought your god of nothingness didn't exist.

Thing is, if your god is entirely unknowable, then how can you know enough about "notness" to believe in it? You can know nothing about it because, if you do, then that is not it.
Dark Matter
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Dark Matter »

Fanman wrote: March 19th, 2018, 3:15 pm DM,
I haven't been an agnostic for very long, but in my experience this is not an accurate description of the agnostic position. The reason that I say “I don't know” is simply because I don't. Why should I believe either way when I don't perceive any compelling evidence for God, but am not sure that God doesn't exist? If something cannot be proven or disproved then saying “I don't know” is not unreasonable or illogical. I see no “virtue” in thinking within the spectrum of what I perceive as reason, I just tend to since becoming agnostic – I don't see why I should arrive at a conclusion through speculation of what could be, but what I don't know is. Whether a philosophy is “dark” or “light” is clearly a matter of perspective, if one thinks in those terms. It is a trademark of fundamentalists to believe that they are of the “light” and everyone else (who doesn't agree with or conform to their way of thinking) is of the “dark”.
I think Atreyu spoke very well. It is always easy to be logical; it is almost impossible to be logical to the bitter end. Both agnostics and atheists should have a better understanding of themselves and theology before assuming "I don't know" is a more honest assessment than theism. "I don't know" is very seldom a state of not-knowing: it's usually as much an object of belief as "God." And there are consequences, not the least of which is closing the door to the unknown. Without God, there are no universally binding moral rules. Sure, there are all manner of “moral” rules that we impose on ourselves and others. But none of these are actually binding in the way we imagine moral laws to be. If naturalism (or "I don't know") is true, there’s no morality apart from what humans value, want, or prefer. Morality is purely a matter of taste. In short, naturalism implies moral nihilism, the view that there are no human-independent moral rules.

On the other hand, cataphatic or positive theology betrays believers when the conceptual understanding of the Great Unknown, God, is taken to be the object of their adoration. The want for evidence is evidence of just that. (I once came across a book written by a former priest who became a militant atheist. The author was clearly not acquainted with in-depth theology. It reminded me of a quote from Francis Bacon: "A little [theology] inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in [theology] bringeth men's minds about to religion.")
Dark Matter
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Dark Matter »

Greta wrote: March 19th, 2018, 6:09 pm Your god is inherently a gap.
What took you so long to get that? It's not like it's a novel idea.
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Dark Matter »

Thing is, if your god is entirely unknowable, then how can you know enough about "notness" to believe in it? You can know nothing about it because, if you do, then that is not it.
God: the great unknown
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Sy Borg
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Sy Borg »

Dark Matter wrote: March 19th, 2018, 7:20 pmWithout God, there are no universally binding moral rules.
Easy to say. What evidence do you have for this? What might those universally binding moral rules be?

In truth, there are no universally binding moral rules that we know of, mainly because we know nothing of moral rules in other parts of the universe.

Nor are there general Earth rules or solar system moral rules. The closest would be found if we looked at all animal groups and colonies, including humans and found commonalities in the way they order themselves. Seemingly the most generally applicable rule that running across many variant groups is, "thou shalt not kill or steal from other members of thine in-group unless necessary for thine own genes' survival".
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Sy Borg »

Nicely done, DM - that's perhaps the most impregnable theistic position possible. The god of the gaps of course is always shrinking; the more we know, the smaller the god's conception must logically become.

Can anyone demonstrate that your God is not real? No. Can anyone point to any of its qualities or attributes? No. Thus ends the philosophy of the situation. At this stage it's just a matter of belief.

I am still enjoying your great openness to my ideas. A closed-minded "atheist" type like myself can learn much from your great openness and conversational generosity!
Dark Matter
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Dark Matter »

Greta wrote: March 19th, 2018, 7:42 pm
Dark Matter wrote: March 19th, 2018, 7:20 pmWithout God, there are no universally binding moral rules.
Easy to say. What evidence do you have for this? What might those universally binding moral rules be?

In truth, there are no universally binding moral rules that we know of, mainly because we know nothing of moral rules in other parts of the universe.

Nor are there general Earth rules or solar system moral rules. The closest would be found if we looked at all animal groups and colonies, including humans and found commonalities in the way they order themselves. Seemingly the most generally applicable rule that running across many variant groups is, "thou shalt not kill or steal from other members of thine in-group unless necessary for thine own genes' survival".
Yup. And that's exactly why self-aware beings need a universal "philosophy of light."
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Sy Borg
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Sy Borg »

Dark Matter wrote: March 19th, 2018, 8:03 pm
Greta wrote: March 19th, 2018, 7:42 pm
Easy to say. What evidence do you have for this? What might those universally binding moral rules be?

In truth, there are no universally binding moral rules that we know of, mainly because we know nothing of moral rules in other parts of the universe.

Nor are there general Earth rules or solar system moral rules. The closest would be found if we looked at all animal groups and colonies, including humans and found commonalities in the way they order themselves. Seemingly the most generally applicable rule that running across many variant groups is, "thou shalt not kill or steal from other members of thine in-group unless necessary for thine own genes' survival".
Yup. And that's exactly why self-aware beings need a universal "philosophy of light."
There is no such thing as a "universal philosophy of light" because the "illumination" will inevitably be culturally specific, very far from universal - aside from the idea of not killing of stealing from allies unless necessary.
Fanman
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Fanman »

Atreyu,
Well, you do know that as an agnostic you can have an opinion, don't you? Being an agnostic merely means that you acknowledgethat the question is not known. You don't act as if you know. But you can still have an opinion, either way. It's just that in this case, you know its value.


I understand that yes. My opinion is that it is unlikely that God exists, but I don't completely rule out the possibility. I have some beliefs due to my experiences I won't deny that, but as you say I value them as speculations, not necessarily telling events about the nature of reality.
I claim to be an agnostic because, when considering this question, the first thing I like to do is to assert that (ideally obviously) it cannot be known. As opposed to the position of believers and atheists who act as if they know or even could know.
I too think that it cannot be known, but I'm not stagnant in that thinking. As we grow in knowledge, more and more of reality may become discoverable to us, and things that are currently shrouded in mystery, may at some point be revealed.
But I take a "strong" position in favor of "higher powers" existing. I say "strong" because of the totality of all of my life experience and reasoning the question out. In fact, while admitting the question cannot be ordinarily known, I find it an almost absurd position to say that probably there are no other entities in the Universe that are much much greater than humans, simply because we cannot see them. Of course we could not see them, that's hardly even evidence of their non-existence. We could not see them any more than a red blood cell in our bodies could see us. Nonetheless, the Universe makes much more sense to me when I put humans pretty low on the "cosmic totem pole", rather than up closer to the top.


I also think that there may be “higher powers” that exist in the sense of forces, that would seem consistent with some of my experiences. I also believe that there may be other dimensions that exist parallel to space and time, that some people are capable of accessing, but these are just speculations. I believe that there's a high probability of intelligent life existing elsewhere in the universe, because I find it difficult to imagine that we occupy the only “goldilocks zone”. Whether that life is more advanced than us I couldn't say. I don't see (based upon my limited knowledge) how nature could facilitate the development of life in any other way than has occurred on earth. So I think that as according to our paradigm of nature, that if human or human-like beings exist elsewhere in the universe, they are dependant on their biosphere in the same way as we are, but perhaps they are more or less advanced because of how old their planet is. However, who really knows what type of life could exist? There may be beings that are capable of surviving in the harsh conditions of space? I tend to think of humans as the most complex expression of nature, but where the “cosmic totem pole” is concerned, I would place us somewhere in the middle.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Fanman
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Fanman »

I meant to say that "I tend to think of humans as one of the most complex expression of nature"
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Dark Matter
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Dark Matter »

Greta wrote: March 19th, 2018, 8:05 pm
Dark Matter wrote: March 19th, 2018, 8:03 pm
Yup. And that's exactly why self-aware beings need a universal "philosophy of light."
There is no such thing as a "universal philosophy of light" because the "illumination" will inevitably be culturally specific, very far from universal - aside from the idea of not killing of stealing from allies unless necessary.
Sure looks like it! All true values of creature experience are concealed in depth of recognition. So, you have a choice: go the pessimistic route -- which is the belief that the universe is comprised of relatively isolated but interactin bits and pieces -- or you can go the more optimistic, faith-oriented view, the belief that there is only one Cause that primal in all domains: deified or undeified, personal or impersonal, actual or potential, finite or infinite, a belief that no thing or being, no relativity or finality, exists except in direct or indirect relation to, and dependence on, the primacy of a First Source and Center.

Extremely complex and highly automatic-appearing cosmic mechanisms always tend to conceal the presence of a creative indwelling mind from any and all intelligences very far below the the nature and capacity of the mechanism. Therefore is it inevitable that the higher universe mechanisms must appear to be mindless to the lower orders of creatures. The only possible exception to such a conclusion would be the implication of mindedness in the amazing phenomenon of an apparently self-maintaining universe — but that is a matter of philosophy rather than one of actual experience. And like Atreyu, I put humans pretty low on the "cosmic totem pole."
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Sy Borg »

Dark Matter wrote: March 19th, 2018, 11:51 pm
Greta wrote: March 19th, 2018, 8:05 pm
There is no such thing as a "universal philosophy of light" because the "illumination" will inevitably be culturally specific, very far from universal - aside from the idea of not killing of stealing from allies unless necessary.
Sure looks like it! All true values of creature experience are concealed in depth of recognition. So, you have a choice: go the pessimistic route -- which is the belief that the universe is comprised of relatively isolated but interacting bits and pieces -- or you can go the more optimistic, faith-oriented view, the belief that there is only one Cause that primal in all domains: deified or undeified, personal or impersonal, actual or potential, finite or infinite, a belief that no thing or being, no relativity or finality, exists except in direct or indirect relation to, and dependence on, the primacy of a First Source and Center.
Why is that more optimistic? If there is one cause you and yours still have the problem of snuffing it.
Dark Matter wrote:Extremely complex and highly automatic-appearing cosmic mechanisms always tend to conceal the presence of a creative indwelling mind from any and all intelligences very far below the the nature and capacity of the mechanism. Therefore is it inevitable that the higher universe mechanisms must appear to be mindless to the lower orders of creatures.
If you said a "potential creative indwelling mind" I would agree - only your certainty jars me. I've often thought that if I was existing within a larger consciousness that it would look mechanical - just like "stuff happening". A beautiful thought but not one that's been verified.
Dark Matter wrote:And like Atreyu, I put humans pretty low on the "cosmic totem pole."
I don't. I see humans as the very most eloquent expression of the Earth so far, and the Earth as the most complex and sophisticated entity, containing the most complex structures for trillions of kms all around, at least. If information could be seen as light, the Earth would shine like a star as compared with most cosmic bodies.

That is nothing to be sneezed at, but of course it would be fanciful to imagine that our pale blue dot and its denizens would be major players in a cosmos that stretches outwards almost forever in both space and time.
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Dark Matter »

Greta wrote: March 20th, 2018, 2:56 am
Why is that more optimistic? If there is one cause you and yours still have the problem of snuffing it.
"Snuffing it"? What does that mean?
If you said a "potential creative indwelling mind" I would agree - only your certainty jars me. I've often thought that if I was existing within a larger consciousness that it would look mechanical - just like "stuff happening". A beautiful thought but not one that's been verified.
Non-locality has been verified. Why deny the possible implications?
I don't. I see humans as the very most eloquent expression of the Earth so far, and the Earth as the most complex and sophisticated entity, containing the most complex structures for trillions of kms all around, at least. If information could be seen as light, the Earth would shine like a star as compared with most cosmic bodies.
So, you're agnostic when it comes to God, but just fine with Earth shining like star when it comes to information. Unless you have a way of ascertaining the validity of that claim, it's hardly logical or reasonable to make it.

Like I said: It is always easy to be logical; it is almost impossible to be logical to the bitter end.
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