What is Your Story?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Greta
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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Greta » July 19th, 2018, 10:25 pm

Dark Matter wrote:
July 19th, 2018, 8:54 pm
Greta wrote:
July 19th, 2018, 6:00 pm

Exactly.

When DM is defeated he reverts to random Twitter style put downs with almost nothing to do with the topic or the person at the end of the ad hominem.

Rather, it is clear that DM had zero idea what he was talking about when he shot off that line - it was just a mindless, reflexive hostile reaction to being proven wrong.

He know the truth, though - Dark Matter made a hasty and wildly wrong supposition that was corrected, and he simply wimped out. He simply lacked the character to admit being wrong.

It is time to put the arrow in the bullseye with this character ...

What he has done says much about theism and the scriptures. If adherents don't even have the strength of character to admit a little mistake on a little philosophy forum, then that demonstrates that their claims about religion's character-building qualities are false.

Religiosity no longer brings truthfulness as it once tended to do with the old pre-evangelist breed of believer, many of whom still toddle off the church on Sundays. They were sincere - they meant it. Today's religions are largely corrupt. Thus, if we find examples of theists of strong character then that is because they are inherently good, good enough not to be corrupted by their distorted creeds.

Today's evangelists are nothing more political beasts and seemingly almost largely amoral, certainly when it comes to dealing with non--Christians. I just dealt with a rabid Christian on another forum who, after spending YEARS complaining and bad-mouthing what he calls "secularists" on a daily basis, flatly denied that he complains about secularists. Other forum members were simply agog at the Trumpian shamelessness of it. It was akin to Trump denying that he was blonde while staring at the cameras with with windswept blonde locks.

It's as if words don't mean anything to these people so they don't worry about how they use them to manipulate others who take truthfulness seriously.

At the risk of perhaps throwing out the baby with the bathwater, it seems to me that religions have become exactly the opposite to what they intended and should ideally be discarded altogether over time. Rather than a means of transcendence religion has become a political conduit, one that chains people to the profane rather than lifting them above it.

When was the last time you saw a theist on a forum inspired and waxing lyrical over God's creation. Showing love for nature? Never, because they are too busy applauding Trump's attempts to remove as much untamed nature from the Earth as possible.

So religions are now now just politics. Right wing politics, claiming tax exemptions for their partisan gaming or society's moral systems. It fits the spirit of today's tendency towards rationalisation in industry where the soulfulness is removed for efficiency, leaving only an ugly shell, eg. pop music, architecture. In religions' case "efficiency" means bums on pews and, like (especially conservative) politicians, most seem happy to exploit the darkness of human nature to bring in the flock.
Don't you ever tire of spouting your hate and bias? All you're doing is preaching to the choir held captive by their own hate and biases.
No, I have precious little hate and bias - certainly it's nothing compared with yours and your inarticulate Twitter snippets that hide that fact that you FEAR an honest debate. Thus, you avoid addressing actual points, just making short, unintelligent blanket ad homs.

Many's the time in the past I tried to engage you positively but it is YOU who cannot respond because you are so full of the very hate and bias you accuse me of. Actually, it's your and N's dodgy behaviour, and a couple of others, that convinced me that internet theocratic zealots have precious little depth beneath the bluster.

My point stands since you seem incapable of an adult rebuttal. When have you ever shown the slightest sign of awe and joy about the world - "God's creation"? When have you pointed out things here that enchant you? Never. Those things appear not to be on your radar, just your passion for socially conservative politics.

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Dark Matter » July 19th, 2018, 11:20 pm

You sound just like the "Antifa" movement, Greta.

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Greta » July 19th, 2018, 11:30 pm

Each reckless and vacuous post just proves my point more! It's transparent to all that your responses are those of one who is out of their depth.

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Dark Matter » July 19th, 2018, 11:43 pm

Fooloso4 wrote:
July 19th, 2018, 10:19 pm
Dark Matter:



Because science deals with facts and evidence not supernatural speculation for which there is neither facts nor evidence. Why should they give preference to the possibilities you favor rather than the innumerable other possibilities that one might imagine?
So, you'rean advocate of "shut up and calculate." That misses the point of the whole scientific endeavor.

This is another example of your spinning stories based on a misunderstanding of science. Quantum indeterminacy has to do with the problem of determining the exact position and momentum of an atomic particle. It does not mean that the facts underpinning all of physics have proven to be indeterminate. It is no surprise that things that are outside the world of our ordinary experience are counter-intuitive since such intuitions are formed from ordinary experience.
There's a lot more dots to connect then you're suggesting.
A growing number of scientists disagree.
Disagree with what? That something must have broken the symmetry of matter-antimatter? That whatever it is it is not a supernatural force or the Force? That theological speculation about the natural world is a dead end ? That there is no reason why science or “free thinkers” should suddenly abandon natural explanations?

What evidence do you have that a growing number of scientists disagree with whatever it is you claim they disagree with?

What scientific theories do they propose that include God as an explanation?
Why do you put words in my mouth? You`re as bad as Spectrum.

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Dark Matter » July 19th, 2018, 11:53 pm

That there is no reason why science or “free thinkers” should suddenly abandon natural explanations?
"Natural explanations" preclude the possibility of consciousness being more fundamental than matter, yet, it is something that is seriously discussed by scientists from a scientific perspective.

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Dark Matter » July 20th, 2018, 1:28 am


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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Thinking critical » July 20th, 2018, 7:58 am

Dark Matter wrote:
July 19th, 2018, 11:53 pm
"Natural explanations" preclude the possibility of consciousness being more fundamental than matter, yet, it is something that is seriously discussed by scientists from a scientific perspective.
How? And more fundamental to what?
Consider that consciousness as we understand it is known only to be an emergent property of complexity, namely living organisms. Earth thus far, is the only planet we know of to host such organisms. We know that organisms evolve, starting from single celled structures (simplicity) into multi celled organisms (complexity), this is to say that based on our own emperical observations of nature, complexity is a fundamental necessity before consciousness emerges.
To assume consciousness precedes the physical state of matter is contradictory to the underlying process of evolution which has given rise to beings which have such capabilities.
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Fooloso4 » July 20th, 2018, 8:40 am

DM:
So, you'rean advocate of "shut up and calculate." That misses the point of the whole scientific endeavor.
How do you get from facts and evidence to your uninformed misuse of the phrase "shut up and calculate"? Your response shows that you miss the point of the whole philosophical endeavor. Philosophical discussion requires you to respond to what was actually said.
There's a lot more dots to connect then you're suggesting.
Vacuous one liners are no substitute for philosophical discussion. You have provided nothing of substance to backup your claim that the facts underpinning all of physics have proven to be indeterminate. Connect the dots.
Why do you put words in my mouth?
Another vacuous one liner. You responded to what I said by claiming that a growing number of scientists disagree. If it is not what I said that they they disagree with then what? I simply restated what you claimed they disagree with.
"Natural explanations" preclude the possibility of consciousness being more fundamental than matter, yet, it is something that is seriously discussed by scientists from a scientific perspective.
Natural explanations do not preclude the possibility of consciousness being more fundamental than matter, it simply means that if you are going to claim that consciousness is fundamental then you must provide a natural explanation of consciousness. If scientists are discussing consciousness from a scientific perspective this is exactly what they are trying to do. Proposing the possibility that consciousness or will or the Force or God solves the symmetry problem without evidence or explanation of how this occurred is not science.

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Greta » July 20th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Thinking critical wrote:
July 20th, 2018, 7:58 am
Dark Matter wrote:
July 19th, 2018, 11:53 pm
"Natural explanations" preclude the possibility of consciousness being more fundamental than matter, yet, it is something that is seriously discussed by scientists from a scientific perspective.
To assume consciousness precedes the physical state of matter is contradictory to the underlying process of evolution which has given rise to beings which have such capabilities.
My understanding is that it is a different kind of consciousness. I hope you have better luck than me luck getting DM to explain his ideas rather than hiding behind Twittery jabs.

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by -1- » July 20th, 2018, 6:53 pm

The only way to deal with DarkMatter, in my opinion and in my practice, is to ignore him. If you can't ignore him, your children will be next.
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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Greta » July 20th, 2018, 7:09 pm

It frustrates me, -1-. I find the theist representation on these forums disappointing. For whatever reason, I'm not seeing too many theists who are calm, rational and capable of calmly talking turkey about their interests these days. It all very quickly becomes personal and irrational.

Earlier this century I encountered some solid theists online who were secure enough to just chat about their beliefs, and they were interesting and likeable. The current crop seems to be just playing to the "internet crowd", perhaps mindful of the unreasoning LCD types within theistic support bases that largely elevated Trump.

It seems that, for increasing numbers of conservatives today, calm and rational conversation is out of fashion. That's what the much-maligned Obama did and they figure that that doesn't work, rather seeing bluster and aggression as more effective tools of interaction.

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by -1- » July 20th, 2018, 7:19 pm

Greta, I used to have a friend from whom I learned, "never attribute to malice what you can explain with stupidity."

Test this with the current crop of theists on this site. I found, and this is my opinion, not a claim of fact, that those who are intelligent, suffer from paranoid delusions; those who don't suffer from paranoid delusions are somewhat left of the center. On the IQ bell curve, not in their political views.
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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Greta » July 20th, 2018, 7:44 pm

Thing is, they are accessing some fairly sophisticated mystical texts so no matter what natural talent they may or may not have, they should at least be able to impart interpretations of the information they have learned in a relaxed and reasonable way and explain any apparent anomalies.

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by -1- » July 20th, 2018, 8:57 pm

Greta wrote:
July 20th, 2018, 7:44 pm
Thing is, they are accessing some fairly sophisticated mystical texts so no matter what natural talent they may or may not have, they should at least be able to impart interpretations of the information they have learned in a relaxed and reasonable way and explain any apparent anomalies.
I though they had some wise and richly smart person in their congregatios,who coaches them.
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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Greta » July 20th, 2018, 11:41 pm

-1- wrote:
July 20th, 2018, 8:57 pm
Greta wrote:
July 20th, 2018, 7:44 pm
Thing is, they are accessing some fairly sophisticated mystical texts so no matter what natural talent they may or may not have, they should at least be able to impart interpretations of the information they have learned in a relaxed and reasonable way and explain any apparent anomalies.
I though they had some wise and richly smart person in their congregatios,who coaches them.
I think they are mangling the information all by themselves. Consider the OP:
My story, the one that informs me, is one of unity and ultimate oneness, a wholeness within which boundaries are artificial constructs and indefinite at best.
Here DM speaks of a perspective that the universe is all one thing. Okay. The galaxy is all one thing too, from a certain perspective, and the solar system, and life on Earth. Everything is both a whole and its parts. It begs the question for me, "... and??". After all, a whole without parts would be a boring thing - a kind of uniform slop that did nothing.

He just leaves the notion dangling without backup or explanation.

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