Killing in the name of......

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
User avatar
Thinking critical
Posts: 1793
Joined: November 7th, 2011, 7:29 pm
Favorite Philosopher: A.C Grayling
Location: Perth, Australia (originally New Zealand)

Re: Killing in the name of......

Post by Thinking critical »

No, it's he me who should apologise for my lack of clarity. You are right by identifying undesirable behaviour enevidably leads to moral judgment of such behaviour.
When I previously stated "position" I was referring to the moral judgment of either the theist or atheist as a group, I do not like to stereotype.
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Killing in the name of......

Post by Eduk »

Personally I do think being a theist demonstrates a clear unreasonableness and does lead to, at least, some harm. But who doesn't believe something unreasonable which has lead to, at least, some harm. If all religions vanished off the face of the planet tomorrow I think it would make no appreciable difference. As one unreasonable belief would simply be replaced with another. The problem is not religion, as Alias points out, it is believing unreasonable things to start with.
Having said that once a religion has started it does take on a life of its own, to some extent. So I'm sure there are many many instances of harmful actions done to fit into a group.
I guess what I'm really trying to say is that the phrasing is leading, too loosely defined, too broadly defined and not fair. You may as well ask which group is more harmful, those who like football or those who don't.
Unknown means unknown.
Namelesss
Posts: 499
Joined: November 15th, 2017, 1:59 am

Re: Killing in the name of......

Post by Namelesss »

Thinking critical wrote: April 14th, 2018, 10:15 am I came across an interesting challenge recently, regarding the consequences of our beliefs.
The question proposed was wether or not anyone could think of a crime or action resulting in unnecessary pain and suffering that one would "only" cause due to the absence of belief in god(s)?..
The particular strain of 'belief' is irrelevant (God or money or Chevrolets or whatever), all strains share the same pathological symptomatology!

No one ever deliberately harmed another unless he was infected with some strain of belief!
User avatar
Thinking critical
Posts: 1793
Joined: November 7th, 2011, 7:29 pm
Favorite Philosopher: A.C Grayling
Location: Perth, Australia (originally New Zealand)

Re: Killing in the name of......

Post by Thinking critical »

Namelesss wrote: April 22nd, 2018, 6:16 pm
Thinking critical wrote: April 14th, 2018, 10:15 am I came across an interesting challenge recently, regarding the consequences of our beliefs.
The question proposed was wether or not anyone could think of a crime or action resulting in unnecessary pain and suffering that one would "only" cause due to the absence of belief in god(s)?..
The particular strain of 'belief' is irrelevant (God or money or Chevrolets or whatever), all strains share the same pathological symptomatology!

No one ever deliberately harmed another unless he was infected with some strain of belief!
Agreed, belief is often an emotional attachment to an idea or concept which you may want or hope to be true in the absence of empirical knowledge (if such knowledge exists). Therefore belief can motivate us and give us a desire to act or react in away that one wouldn't expect if the belief was absent.
The strain of belief is irrelevant, but the context of the discussion was religion when Christopher Hitchens was debating a pope. The pope asked Hitchens how an atheist could possibly appreciate true morality without excepting there god, Christoper proposed this argument as the rebuttal.
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out
Namelesss
Posts: 499
Joined: November 15th, 2017, 1:59 am

Re: Killing in the name of......

Post by Namelesss »

Thinking critical wrote: April 24th, 2018, 9:32 am The pope asked Hitchens how an atheist could possibly appreciate true morality without excepting there god, Christoper proposed this argument as the rebuttal.
First, the Pope is a professional theologian/apologist, Hitchens is a professional entertainer.
It was loaded from the beginning.

The question; "...action resulting in unnecessary pain and suffering that one would "only" cause due to the absence of belief in god(s)?"
Clarifying 'unnecessary' is the first step to a philosophical examination, but we'll move on to...

Segundo, as soon as the Pope asked 'me' "how an atheist could possibly appreciate true morality", I would respond that 'morality' is the sin of Pride, judgment of 'Good and Evil', the original forbidden fruit!
See how he squirms out of that one!

We don't see 'good and evil', we don't 'judge others', in a state of unconditional Love (what Christ was/is all about)!
If the Pope wants to 'associate' "unconditional Love" with his notion of 'God', then so be it, but that is not a logical refutation.
God tells us not to be 'moral' ("Do not eat from the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil" lest foolish man think he is like Us!").
Sanity tells us the same thing.
So, God or not, morality is insanity!
Those 'with a God' are warned of the toxicity of that fruit (the one and only Sin!), yet the hypocrites take fresh bites every day, often!

Were Hitchens a philosopher, he would be on good ground to field the questions that he sees fit to 'answer'.

Of course I did answer the question when I stated that the 'inverse' is true, that "no one ever deliberately harmed another unless he was infected with beliefs!"
That answers the question, and does an end run around the poor term 'unnecessary'.
All that exists is 'necessary', and that is everything!
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Killing in the name of......

Post by Alias »

If you think the meaning of "necessity" was ill-defined in terms of causing harm, consider how far the meaning of "cause pain and suffering, torture and kill" must be stretched to include saying "I don't think you're moral." Now stretch the word "belief" to include all thoughts, passions and sensations
Those liberties with vocabulary will include all motives of all people, all chains of causation. That will encompass a hundred forms of love, hate, fear, awe, dread, fealty, delusion, calculation, neurosis, greed, passion, sex, boredom, pride, socio- and psychopathology, envy and hunger.
But what's left to compare?
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021