Saving humanity from itself

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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AresKenux
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Saving humanity from itself

Post by AresKenux » July 25th, 2018, 5:12 pm

I've learned in my time in my short existence here on this planet, that the value of any individual is defined by the depth of their suffering. Specifically in what way they combat their own suffering or the suffering of those around them. But the complications in understanding humanity as a collective form, generalizations fall short of an answer obviously. The complex weave of many opposing or aligned volition's given here in this minute existence, is always changing. On the scale of growth versus decay, what or who is capable of estimating whether or not our species is improving or degrading? Ultimately, I've personally deduced an opinion, that due to the inevitability of scientific and technological advancement is almost always abused for military strength and societal control. That humanity will be always at a steady decline. Forgive me the cliche, but it can be used in contrast to this perspective, "When the power of love overcomes the love for power, the world will know peace." So therein lies the question, what in which way, can save humanity from itself?

I was laying in my bed, listening to Rain by Native Force, mixed into it was a binaural beat I made through gnaural, all on repeat. Thinking through all these things. The other day I've come to terms with the measures of importance's, and applying the order, context and direction which ultimately decides the measure of importance, into the former concepts. And at the end of the segment, I've deduced, that God's virtue is the deciding guiding force which can presumably decide the fate of our species.

In my opinion. The nature of a virtue is that it stands the tests of time, and that it unites evenly with other virtues. While vice, is a feigning virtue, that swiftly is eliminated against the tests of time, and divides itself exponentially. God's virtue, is that which unites humanity, and leads them to mercy, truth, and freedom. All for the sake of healing and maintaining spiritual salvation without fear.

Jacob's ladder, for instance, is the idea that an individual can transcend to a Heavenly state through the practice of asceticism. The casing is outlined by the doom of humanity, in contrast to those who might be saved. While the direction is delivered via the pulling away from the said doom, saving yourself, and all the while saving as many people as you can alongside of yourself.

If any at all of these things may be sound to you, what could you possibly deduce from these concepts? If not anything, then what parts do you disagree with, and why? If both, then I'd be interested in hearing your opinion regardless!

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Re: Saving humanity from itself

Post by Spectrum » July 26th, 2018, 1:52 am

Ever since humanity has self-consciousness, it has been overcoming threats to itself, e.g. the war of germs, the war on war, and the war on many things that humanity has won.
But the fact is the won-over threats are evolving to be greater threats to humanity plus the additional knowledge humanity has, are also exposing greater potential threats of galatical-scale threats.
But ultimately the striving of humanity to preserve itself as a species is likely to be a lost cause cosmologically albeit a sliver of chance upon humanity quest for space exploration.

So the point is, while still in existence, humanity must still strive optimally within those known limits of doom.

What is of great concern is the moral perspective where it is possible where certain groups are capable of exterminating the human species prematuredly via nukes and other WMDs. Example Islam will not hesitate to exterminate the human species [condoned by Allah where necessary] because regardless of what happened on Earth, Muslims are promised eternal life in heaven.

The hope is humans are endowed with an inherent moral function within DNA.
Morality is not just something that people learn, argues Yale psychologist Paul Bloom: It is something we are all born with. At birth, babies are endowed with compassion, with empathy, with the beginnings of a sense of fairness.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... of-babies/


I believe humans on average can expedite their moral quotient to ensure humanity survives various potential moral-evil catastrophe at least till the inevitable [e.g. large rogue meteor strikes Earth, Earth collapse into the Sun, etc].
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

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Re: Saving humanity from itself

Post by Mlw » July 26th, 2018, 3:17 am

Judging from what you say, you ought to read Augustine of Hippo. Suffering is central to Christianity, because Jesus was commanded by God to follow this path. It means that we shall not at all costs avoid suffering, because it is really the path to salvation. However, I don't believe self-inflicted suffering is worthwhile.

A central theme in Ingmar Bergman's films is unconscious suffering. He shows how people are hiding their suffering behind a classy facade. This is a consequence of leaving Christianity behind. We would better realize that life is suffering. So says the Buddha, too.

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Re: Saving humanity from itself

Post by Belindi » July 26th, 2018, 5:31 am

AresKenux wrote:
July 25th, 2018, 5:12 pm
I've learned in my time in my short existence here on this planet, that the value of any individual is defined by the depth of their suffering. Specifically in what way they combat their own suffering or the suffering of those around them. But the complications in understanding humanity as a collective form, generalizations fall short of an answer obviously. The complex weave of many opposing or aligned volition's given here in this minute existence, is always changing. On the scale of growth versus decay, what or who is capable of estimating whether or not our species is improving or degrading? Ultimately, I've personally deduced an opinion, that due to the inevitability of scientific and technological advancement is almost always abused for military strength and societal control. That humanity will be always at a steady decline. Forgive me the cliche, but it can be used in contrast to this perspective, "When the power of love overcomes the love for power, the world will know peace." So therein lies the question, what in which way, can save humanity from itself?

I was laying in my bed, listening to Rain by Native Force, mixed into it was a binaural beat I made through gnaural, all on repeat. Thinking through all these things. The other day I've come to terms with the measures of importance's, and applying the order, context and direction which ultimately decides the measure of importance, into the former concepts. And at the end of the segment, I've deduced, that God's virtue is the deciding guiding force which can presumably decide the fate of our species.

In my opinion. The nature of a virtue is that it stands the tests of time, and that it unites evenly with other virtues. While vice, is a feigning virtue, that swiftly is eliminated against the tests of time, and divides itself exponentially. God's virtue, is that which unites humanity, and leads them to mercy, truth, and freedom. All for the sake of healing and maintaining spiritual salvation without fear.

Jacob's ladder, for instance, is the idea that an individual can transcend to a Heavenly state through the practice of asceticism. The casing is outlined by the doom of humanity, in contrast to those who might be saved. While the direction is delivered via the pulling away from the said doom, saving yourself, and all the while saving as many people as you can alongside of yourself.

If any at all of these things may be sound to you, what could you possibly deduce from these concepts? If not anything, then what parts do you disagree with, and why? If both, then I'd be interested in hearing your opinion regardless!
"the value of any individual---". Value to whom? 'Value' is meaningless unless it's moderated by a recipient of it and an agent of it. Value is a relation not an entity.

"power of love". You need to define love. Some suggestions: agape, affection, lust, desire, satisfaction of desire, narcissism, romantic infatuation, proper pride , tribalism.


If power were to be overcome then natural selection, which is the power that underlies biological evolution, would disappear and with it biological evolution would disappear. If biological evolution were to disappear then humanity, which is the only species that adapts superfast due to culture, would survive to inherit a world bereft of other living species.

I gather that the problem you are grappling with is the tension between cooperation and competition.

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Re: Saving humanity from itself

Post by LuckyR » July 26th, 2018, 1:20 pm

AresKenux wrote:
July 25th, 2018, 5:12 pm
I've learned in my time in my short existence here on this planet, that the value of any individual is defined by the depth of their suffering. Specifically in what way they combat their own suffering or the suffering of those around them. But the complications in understanding humanity as a collective form, generalizations fall short of an answer obviously. The complex weave of many opposing or aligned volition's given here in this minute existence, is always changing. On the scale of growth versus decay, what or who is capable of estimating whether or not our species is improving or degrading? Ultimately, I've personally deduced an opinion, that due to the inevitability of scientific and technological advancement is almost always abused for military strength and societal control. That humanity will be always at a steady decline. Forgive me the cliche, but it can be used in contrast to this perspective, "When the power of love overcomes the love for power, the world will know peace." So therein lies the question, what in which way, can save humanity from itself?

I was laying in my bed, listening to Rain by Native Force, mixed into it was a binaural beat I made through gnaural, all on repeat. Thinking through all these things. The other day I've come to terms with the measures of importance's, and applying the order, context and direction which ultimately decides the measure of importance, into the former concepts. And at the end of the segment, I've deduced, that God's virtue is the deciding guiding force which can presumably decide the fate of our species.

In my opinion. The nature of a virtue is that it stands the tests of time, and that it unites evenly with other virtues. While vice, is a feigning virtue, that swiftly is eliminated against the tests of time, and divides itself exponentially. God's virtue, is that which unites humanity, and leads them to mercy, truth, and freedom. All for the sake of healing and maintaining spiritual salvation without fear.

Jacob's ladder, for instance, is the idea that an individual can transcend to a Heavenly state through the practice of asceticism. The casing is outlined by the doom of humanity, in contrast to those who might be saved. While the direction is delivered via the pulling away from the said doom, saving yourself, and all the while saving as many people as you can alongside of yourself.

If any at all of these things may be sound to you, what could you possibly deduce from these concepts? If not anything, then what parts do you disagree with, and why? If both, then I'd be interested in hearing your opinion regardless!
You are kind of summarizing your understanding of Life, the Universe and Everything. Too much to critique. Is there a single aspect that is the most important to you? Happy to share my thoughts on whatever that might be.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Saving humanity from itself

Post by AresKenux » July 26th, 2018, 5:52 pm

Belindi wrote:
July 26th, 2018, 5:31 am
AresKenux wrote:
July 25th, 2018, 5:12 pm
I've learned in my time in my short existence here on this planet, that the value of any individual is defined by the depth of their suffering. Specifically in what way they combat their own suffering or the suffering of those around them. But the complications in understanding humanity as a collective form, generalizations fall short of an answer obviously. The complex weave of many opposing or aligned volition's given here in this minute existence, is always changing. On the scale of growth versus decay, what or who is capable of estimating whether or not our species is improving or degrading? Ultimately, I've personally deduced an opinion, that due to the inevitability of scientific and technological advancement is almost always abused for military strength and societal control. That humanity will be always at a steady decline. Forgive me the cliche, but it can be used in contrast to this perspective, "When the power of love overcomes the love for power, the world will know peace." So therein lies the question, what in which way, can save humanity from itself?

I was laying in my bed, listening to Rain by Native Force, mixed into it was a binaural beat I made through gnaural, all on repeat. Thinking through all these things. The other day I've come to terms with the measures of importance's, and applying the order, context and direction which ultimately decides the measure of importance, into the former concepts. And at the end of the segment, I've deduced, that God's virtue is the deciding guiding force which can presumably decide the fate of our species.

In my opinion. The nature of a virtue is that it stands the tests of time, and that it unites evenly with other virtues. While vice, is a feigning virtue, that swiftly is eliminated against the tests of time, and divides itself exponentially. God's virtue, is that which unites humanity, and leads them to mercy, truth, and freedom. All for the sake of healing and maintaining spiritual salvation without fear.

Jacob's ladder, for instance, is the idea that an individual can transcend to a Heavenly state through the practice of asceticism. The casing is outlined by the doom of humanity, in contrast to those who might be saved. While the direction is delivered via the pulling away from the said doom, saving yourself, and all the while saving as many people as you can alongside of yourself.

If any at all of these things may be sound to you, what could you possibly deduce from these concepts? If not anything, then what parts do you disagree with, and why? If both, then I'd be interested in hearing your opinion regardless!
"the value of any individual---". Value to whom? 'Value' is meaningless unless it's moderated by a recipient of it and an agent of it. Value is a relation not an entity.

"power of love". You need to define love. Some suggestions: agape, affection, lust, desire, satisfaction of desire, narcissism, romantic infatuation, proper pride , tribalism.


If power were to be overcome then natural selection, which is the power that underlies biological evolution, would disappear and with it biological evolution would disappear. If biological evolution were to disappear then humanity, which is the only species that adapts superfast due to culture, would survive to inherit a world bereft of other living species.

I gather that the problem you are grappling with is the tension between cooperation and competition.
Value to God? This is coming from a perspective of theology after all.

Love is an emotional attachment to any object or subject, if you want to get all scientific about it? You can love anything, but what I think what Jimi Hendrix meant by this quote, is that Love itself is an entity, and can conquer all the woes of humanity.

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Re: Saving humanity from itself

Post by AresKenux » July 26th, 2018, 5:53 pm

@LuckyR
The idea of Jacobs ladder seem's to be most interesting to me, as well as most important.

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Re: Saving humanity from itself

Post by Belindi » July 27th, 2018, 7:49 am

AresKenux wrote:
Value to God? This is coming from a perspective of theology after all.

Love is an emotional attachment to any object or subject, if you want to get all scientific about it? You can love anything, but what I think what Jimi Hendrix meant by this quote, is that Love itself is an entity, and can conquer all the woes of humanity.
That's a straightforward answer. I don't believe in God . I don't believe that unbridled or uninformed emotions are good. I don't agree with you Ares, but I appreciate that you are frank.

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Re: Saving humanity from itself

Post by AresKenux » July 30th, 2018, 1:09 pm

Mlw wrote:
July 26th, 2018, 3:17 am
Judging from what you say, you ought to read Augustine of Hippo. Suffering is central to Christianity, because Jesus was commanded by God to follow this path. It means that we shall not at all costs avoid suffering, because it is really the path to salvation. However, I don't believe self-inflicted suffering is worthwhile.

A central theme in Ingmar Bergman's films is unconscious suffering. He shows how people are hiding their suffering behind a classy facade. This is a consequence of leaving Christianity behind. We would better realize that life is suffering. So says the Buddha, too.
Ive deduced a plausible schematic for why theological minds are set differently from secular minds.
It has to do with our dual forms of existence. One side of us, is mortal while the other is immortal.
In secular mortal thought, we use temporary pleasures to alleviate eternal pains.
In theological immortal thought, we use eternal pleasures to alleviate temporary pains.

Sounds like an extensive version of stoicism. But, as much as suffering is inevitable. Even the Buddha managed to transcend through this reality.

@Belindi
Thank you for at least responding. Truly appreciate your time.

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Re: Saving humanity from itself

Post by Fooloso4 » July 30th, 2018, 6:54 pm

There have been various homilies inspired by the story of Jacob’s dream (Genesis, 28:10-17). The story itself has nothing to do with suffering or asceticism or the ability of humans to ascend to the heavens.

I agree with Nietzsche’s analysis of asceticism - it is an attempt to find meaning in suffering and overcome our powerlessness against it, mastering oneself and one’s environment, by making suffering something that is willed through self-affliction. And although he recognized the link between suffering and human depth, he rejects asceticism. He favored Epicurean or philosophical hedonism over attempts to ascribe cosmic meaning to suffering, and simple pleasures over self-denial.

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Re: Saving humanity from itself

Post by AresKenux » July 30th, 2018, 8:22 pm

On that note. I surely have to refresh myself with Nietzsche, it has been too long.

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Re: Saving humanity from itself

Post by LuckyR » July 31st, 2018, 2:52 am

AresKenux wrote:
July 26th, 2018, 5:53 pm
@LuckyR
The idea of Jacobs ladder seem's to be most interesting to me, as well as most important.
I don't disagree that the concept is interesting. Though to be taken literally would require numerous leaps of faith, many of which are illogical.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Saving humanity from itself

Post by ThomasHobbes » July 31st, 2018, 4:53 am

AresKenux wrote:
July 25th, 2018, 5:12 pm
I've learned in my time in my short existence here on this planet, that the value of any individual is defined by the depth of their suffering. Specifically in what way they combat their own suffering or the suffering of those around them. But the complications in understanding humanity as a collective form, generalizations fall short of an answer obviously. The complex weave of many opposing or aligned volition's given here in this minute existence, is always changing. On the scale of growth versus decay, what or who is capable of estimating whether or not our species is improving or degrading? Ultimately, I've personally deduced an opinion, that due to the inevitability of scientific and technological advancement is almost always abused for military strength and societal control. That humanity will be always at a steady decline. Forgive me the cliche, but it can be used in contrast to this perspective, "When the power of love overcomes the love for power, the world will know peace." So therein lies the question, what in which way, can save humanity from itself?

I was laying in my bed, listening to Rain by Native Force, mixed into it was a binaural beat I made through gnaural, all on repeat. Thinking through all these things. The other day I've come to terms with the measures of importance's, and applying the order, context and direction which ultimately decides the measure of importance, into the former concepts. And at the end of the segment, I've deduced, that God's virtue is the deciding guiding force which can presumably decide the fate of our species.

In my opinion. The nature of a virtue is that it stands the tests of time, and that it unites evenly with other virtues. While vice, is a feigning virtue, that swiftly is eliminated against the tests of time, and divides itself exponentially. God's virtue, is that which unites humanity, and leads them to mercy, truth, and freedom. All for the sake of healing and maintaining spiritual salvation without fear.

Jacob's ladder, for instance, is the idea that an individual can transcend to a Heavenly state through the practice of asceticism. The casing is outlined by the doom of humanity, in contrast to those who might be saved. While the direction is delivered via the pulling away from the said doom, saving yourself, and all the while saving as many people as you can alongside of yourself.

If any at all of these things may be sound to you, what could you possibly deduce from these concepts? If not anything, then what parts do you disagree with, and why? If both, then I'd be interested in hearing your opinion regardless!
Belief is the mind killer, and whilst you and the rest of humanity believe is fantasies such as "God's virtue" we shall never drag ourselves out of the primordial swamp where we seem to belong.
I'd also like to recommend that you listen to more challenging and less repetitive music. Perhaps more than metaphorically you are repeating the fallacies of the past. Challenge yourself and listing to something else, you might come up with something new.

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Re: Saving humanity from itself

Post by AresKenux » July 31st, 2018, 12:30 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
July 31st, 2018, 4:53 am
AresKenux wrote:
July 25th, 2018, 5:12 pm
I've learned in my time in my short existence here on this planet, that the value of any individual is defined by the depth of their suffering. Specifically in what way they combat their own suffering or the suffering of those around them. But the complications in understanding humanity as a collective form, generalizations fall short of an answer obviously. The complex weave of many opposing or aligned volition's given here in this minute existence, is always changing. On the scale of growth versus decay, what or who is capable of estimating whether or not our species is improving or degrading? Ultimately, I've personally deduced an opinion, that due to the inevitability of scientific and technological advancement is almost always abused for military strength and societal control. That humanity will be always at a steady decline. Forgive me the cliche, but it can be used in contrast to this perspective, "When the power of love overcomes the love for power, the world will know peace." So therein lies the question, what in which way, can save humanity from itself?

I was laying in my bed, listening to Rain by Native Force, mixed into it was a binaural beat I made through gnaural, all on repeat. Thinking through all these things. The other day I've come to terms with the measures of importance's, and applying the order, context and direction which ultimately decides the measure of importance, into the former concepts. And at the end of the segment, I've deduced, that God's virtue is the deciding guiding force which can presumably decide the fate of our species.

In my opinion. The nature of a virtue is that it stands the tests of time, and that it unites evenly with other virtues. While vice, is a feigning virtue, that swiftly is eliminated against the tests of time, and divides itself exponentially. God's virtue, is that which unites humanity, and leads them to mercy, truth, and freedom. All for the sake of healing and maintaining spiritual salvation without fear.

Jacob's ladder, for instance, is the idea that an individual can transcend to a Heavenly state through the practice of asceticism. The casing is outlined by the doom of humanity, in contrast to those who might be saved. While the direction is delivered via the pulling away from the said doom, saving yourself, and all the while saving as many people as you can alongside of yourself.

If any at all of these things may be sound to you, what could you possibly deduce from these concepts? If not anything, then what parts do you disagree with, and why? If both, then I'd be interested in hearing your opinion regardless!
Belief is the mind killer, and whilst you and the rest of humanity believe is fantasies such as "God's virtue" we shall never drag ourselves out of the primordial swamp where we seem to belong.
I'd also like to recommend that you listen to more challenging and less repetitive music. Perhaps more than metaphorically you are repeating the fallacies of the past. Challenge yourself and listing to something else, you might come up with something new.

What would you recommend instead of any type of belief? To annihilate in self, even the belief in the facts, would be a severe disconnection to any way you would choose to determine yourself by. "Every man needs a code."

Other than that, have any recommendations for listening? Unlike some "believers", I do try to keep an open mind, and to see things not just from my own perspective.

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Re: Saving humanity from itself

Post by ThomasHobbes » July 31st, 2018, 2:37 pm

AresKenux wrote:
July 31st, 2018, 12:30 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
July 31st, 2018, 4:53 am


Belief is the mind killer, and whilst you and the rest of humanity believe is fantasies such as "God's virtue" we shall never drag ourselves out of the primordial swamp where we seem to belong.
I'd also like to recommend that you listen to more challenging and less repetitive music. Perhaps more than metaphorically you are repeating the fallacies of the past. Challenge yourself and listing to something else, you might come up with something new.

What would you recommend instead of any type of belief? To annihilate in self, even the belief in the facts, would be a severe disconnection to any way you would choose to determine yourself by. "Every man needs a code."

Other than that, have any recommendations for listening? Unlike some "believers", I do try to keep an open mind, and to see things not just from my own perspective.
believe nothing; seek to know.

sapere aude!

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