Are there miracles?

[melanie.]

Miracles - A supernatural event which the actual probability of non supernatural forces happening are close to none.



Of course you cannot prove miracles. If you are able to prove miracles it wouldn't be a miracle because the event wouldn't have been supernatural. Since miracles have to be supernatural in order to be miracles, they can't be explained by the laws of nature, hence they cannot be proven. So we must look at the probability of the event occurring without supernatural forces.

Takes Jesus Christ for example - Christian's claim that Jesus resurrected. How can we prove that he actually resurrected? We can't! However eye witness (including Jew's who hated Jesus) say that the tomb was empty which isn't a supernatural claim. From this we can make a deduction - either something supernatural occurred or nothing supernatural occurred. If something supernatural occurred then it is impossible to prove it. However if it was not supernatural, it does not defy the laws of nature. Therefore it is physically possible to prove that the body was moved or whatever. As time has passed and more and more Christians and Atheist become divided in the issue and still no evidence comes close to suggest that his body was moved, its got to say something amirite???

[melanie.]

Ok consider this study:

Back in the 1990s, The Journal of the American Medical Association printed a summary of a study indicating that hospitalized heart patients do better when somebody prays for them. In the early 1980s, 393 patients at San Francisco General Medical Center’s coronary care unit were randomly assigned to two groups. One experimental group was prayed for by a group of born-again Christians, and a control group wasn’t prayed for at all. Those who did the praying never met the patients. They were just given first names and diagnoses. Also, the patients had no way of knowing whether they were prayed for or not. The doctor who ran the experiment, Dr. Randolph Byrd, didn’t know either. Dr. John Thompson, who wrote about the study, says that it met “all the scientific standards for testing.”

The results? Even though all the patients were equally sick when they checked into the hospital, twelve of those who weren’t prayed for needed breathing or feeding tubes, while none of those who were prayed for did. Nine in the unprayed-for group needed antibiotics, while only two in the prayed-for group did. Fifteen percent of the control group needed diuretics, while only five percent of the patients who were prayed for did. One doctor complained that prayer was “an attempt to return medicine to the Dark Ages, and to reduce physicians to the same status as witch doctors and faith healers.” But Dr. Thompson, who wrote about the study, says that anything that helps patients get well is valid, and that prayer “is about as benign a form of treatment as there is” because there’s no danger to anybody.

[pekin]

"hospitalized heart patients do better when somebody prays for them“. Dr. John Thompson, who wrote about the study, says that it met “all the scientific standards for testing. “prayer is about as benign a form of treatment as there is because there’s no danger to anybody“.

I wonder if prayers did really do better than all the available medical treatment in this "scientific" experiment why did it stop short of completely curing the disease?

I wonder if Melanie suggesting that every doctor should prescribe praying and every hospital should have specialised staff who's job would be praying to all patients.

I also wonder what kind of prayer it would suit for Hindu, Zarathustra, Muslim, Buddhist, Rastafarian, Jew, druid, atheist patients? Will Quakers' prayer fit to all, or it ought to be Pentecostal prayer?

[pekin]

Miracles - A supernatural event - miracles have to be supernatural in order to be miracles, they can't be explained by the laws of nature, hence they cannot be proven.”

Melanie, you seem to be suggesting actual existing [as opposed to existing in the mind only] of “supernatural”. Am I wrong?

If you are suggesting actual existing of anything supernatural please let us know.

If you can’t provide actual existing of anything supernatural I would suggest to consider it [supernatural] existing in the mind only.

In my earlier comment I have tried to put an agreeable definition of miracle [without the assumption of actual existing of the supernatural] as: "A very rare event [like Red Sea splits or walking through the wall under duress or changing water into wine] may be called "miracle" if it happens on demand". As you see we do not need “supernatural” in the definition.

Your definition of [miracle - a supernatural event] mounts to an excuse to justify that [miracles] “cannot be proven”. Whereas in my definition, if I claim to turn the water into wine and if you ask me to prove it and if I do it [that would be the proof] then my turning water into wine would be called miracle. So we do not need supernatural in the definition.

However, since I am a sane person, I am not claiming I can turn water into wine [not even a bad quality wine] this idea of miracles exists only in my mind.

And I repeat my earlier comment here: Until now, no reliable evidence have been provided to justify the claim that a "miracle" has actually happened.

Thanks
pekin

[melanie.]

Huh??? How did you define miracles??? (cause I seem to have missed it)


Since we cannot agree on a definition, lets look at this from an external source:

Miracle - an event that is so extraordinary that it is thought to be the work of God or saint (English Oxford Dictionary, 2006)

or might you prefer an online dictionary:

Miracle - an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/miracle

[pekin]

Let us remember the subject of our debate:

Are there miracles? How do we know? Wouldn't it be more reasonable to attribute alleged miracles to human error, exaggeration, or lying?

Melanie if you check the previous page you will see my full reasoning. I have summarised here for you:

Let us call "Miracle" = a very rare event in a particular time and place and with intelligence or intend. [with "will" or ON DEMAND]

In order to talk about miracles, which -by the above definition- requires intelligence/intend or "will", we need to prove that this Will is the cause of that particular event.

Now, the onus on the claimer's shoulder to prove without doubt that, there is a miracle and in this particular miracle -the very rare event- happened because of the "will" of the instigator.

Until now, no reliable evidence have been provided to justify the claim that a "miracle" has actually happened.

1- Melanie can you please explain why do you object my definition of "Miracle"?

2- Miracle - an event that is so extraordinary that it is thought to be the work of God or saint (English Oxford Dictionary, 2006). This definition is certainly good enough for everyday conversation but not acceptable in a philosophical reasoning since it presume the existing of God. In philosophy and in logic you need to build your reasoning from the known facts.

3- Miracle - an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/miracle[/quote]. Similar to the Oxford Dictionary definition above, this one also presuming the actual existence of supernatural therefore is no use in a philosophical [logical] reasoning.

Thanks
pekin

[Quality4go]

Ah the topic of miracles... What a wonderous subject of inquisition. A common obstacle that presents itself when attempting to define such an event is the concept of the 'supernatural'. Nature, in the most fundamental sense implies an all encompassing origin of being. In the metaphysical sense, existence expresses itself directly by means of nature and any phenomena, explainable or not, cannot occur "outside" of the natural means of existence.

The 'supernatural' aspect of miracles aside, there will always be particulars concerning the individual interpretation of the definition of 'miracle'. It is seemingly a very deepseated topic and can have tremendous impact on how an individual perceives the external world. I am not going to attempt to make a case for the existence of miracles anymore than in saying that Everything is a Miracle on some level. When it comes right down to it, even the simplest actions cannot be fully explained in an absolute sense, therefore leaving room for the sense of wonder and awe in any phenomena.

Belief in miracles sets the stage for miracles to be observed, and if you are actually looking, you will be amazed at what you find.

[SigmaD]

Even the Catholic church seem to think that there are just too many miracles going around. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 32016.html

"If the visionary is considered credible they will ultimately be questioned by one or more demonologists and exorcists to exclude the possibility that Satan is hiding behind the apparitions in order to deceive the faithful."
As if that wouldn't be miraculous enough..

We would hate to water down those "legitimate" claims..

[Belinda]

It's a nice inference that Satan is in opposition to 'the faithful' and not in opposition to the facts. I like Satan the more he is opposed to docile faith.

[magicmusician]

I think personally that "miracles" are all about perception.

Some see waking up alive each day as a miracle
Some see the recent even of the Hudson plane Crash a "miracle"

OK waking up each day a miracle - it would be hard to wake up if you werent alive true. But someone who sees it like this is an optimist of the highest order and I dont think there is anything wrong with that - again its all personal perception

The HUdson plane crash would be seen by some as good flying and crisis intervention from the pilot. I personally think its more than that
For the plane to have the problems when it did - so close to the water - and the other chain of events that we did not see or hear about that all contributed to that plane landing where it did....To me at least that is a miracle

[df544]

Have you ever played with Lego blocks?

Suppose I gave you a diagram on how to build sentience. All you would have to do is take 7 trillion, trillion, trillion Lego blocks and assemble them in precisely the order in the diagram. When complete, it would be able to understand itself and the universe.

Would that be a miracle?

Well, the building block of a human is the atom. Take 7 trillion, trillion, trillion atoms and assemble them in a particular order and WHAM! You got you!

YOU are a miracle.