Why doesn't god prove himself?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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YSM
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Post by YSM » January 1st, 2009, 8:13 pm

Zein wrote:Either God is not omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent or God does not exist.

A God who created evil does not sound like a compassionate God to me.
God is good and everything He does is good, and our God has created beings like us who have a free will. We can either use His gift to ally ourselves with Him, or we can use it to become His enemies; in other words, we are free to oppose Him and thus create evil. It is true that God could force us to abide by His Moral Law always and to love Him, etc., but then we would be mere automatons and our love meaningless. True goodness and love cannot be born from force.

romeo
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Post by romeo » January 12th, 2009, 1:14 pm

I see there are many believers here. :shock:
Nice replies…
I think once man tries to contemplate over God he enters the realm of Agnosticism (except for those who think it is not necessary to think). Then he either leans toward Faith (which is an assumption a "decision to accept" amidst uncertainty - according to replies here) or enters the realm of Atheism (which is another assumption amidst uncertainty).
Man is always surprised by his findings.
Intelligent man needs to handle the major questions and if he cannot come to any plausible personal ideology he seeks assistance from authoritative heritage.
Religious explanations stand outside the scope of proof or disproof. So they provide a peaceful and stable lodging for the unstable mind of human especially if it suffers from mental and physical pains and panic.
Last edited by romeo on January 13th, 2009, 3:16 am, edited 4 times in total.

Belinda
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Post by Belinda » January 12th, 2009, 8:14 pm

YSM, an excellent clear statement of the necessity within the theist myth for Free Will.

Trouble with it is that you did not write an argument to support your position. You restated the myth of Free Will which is an outstanding example of a myth past its sell-by date.

YSM
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Post by YSM » January 13th, 2009, 7:58 pm

Belinda wrote:YSM, an excellent clear statement of the necessity within the theist myth for Free Will.


Where is your argument for that claim?

You've only responded to me once, but I can already tell that I'm dealing with someone who is conceited and who gets their philosophy education solely from fortune cookies and Wikipedia.
Trouble with it is that you did not write an argument to support your position.


It's quite obvious that I don't believe that our universe is deterministic or completely deterministic; namely our decisions and actions. If you want to read about arguments against Determinism, why there's no conflict between a deterministic universe and free will, why our universe is not entirely deterministic, or even why that whole debate is largely irrelevant, then you should go to your local library and seek it. There's no point in me reiterating (and stealing) the points of real serious philosophers and scientists.
You restated the myth of Free Will which is an outstanding example of a myth past its sell-by date.
Where is your argument for that claim?

This is a grand demonstration of just how conceited and ignorant you are. The debate Determinism VS. Indeterminism has been going on for a long time and is still going on. And If anything Determinism is on its way out the door because of science (quantum mechanics). Have you read anything about quantum mechanics, Belinda?

Also, I still don't quite get what your problem is with my reasoning. I believe that there is a God. I believe that His way or side is good and objective for the mere fact that it precedes everything including our own beliefs. I also believe that He ingrained in all of us (even common animals) a moral compass--The Moral Law--which tells us what we should do, or in other words what His side is. I also believe and without doubt see that we can oppose what our hearts (ultimately God) tell us we should do. No matter how childish and pointless the option of opposing God may be, we still have it; that's what I meant by free will. I don't know what you're talking about. I think your argument may be purely based in semantics and at worst pointless.
Last edited by YSM on January 13th, 2009, 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Belinda
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Post by Belinda » January 14th, 2009, 8:59 am

Well bless you YSM but all of the people do not say 'Amen'.
Nobody here is impressed by all these ad hominems.I could do better myself to support the contention that 'There is a God and it is good'.

But I won't because 'God' is such a misunderstood and vague bit of terminology.

baselinemechanic
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god dosen't have the ability to prove itself

Post by baselinemechanic » January 20th, 2009, 1:03 pm

Why would someone think god would even have the ability to prove exsitance. God encompasses all things created then all things created would have to act at the exact same moment with the same goal of proving itself to,,,,itself.

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Post by wanabe » January 23rd, 2009, 7:24 pm

to demand FAITH from us. if in fact there is a god/gods. if we don't have faith there is no god, if we do have faith then there is a god...

personally I worship chance and probability, that is my god, I have faith in this. however the chance that god exists, I worship this, so in a way I also worship god, whether he is there or not.
Secret To Eternal Life: Live Life To The Fullest, Help All Others To Do So.Meaning of Life Is Choice. Increase choice through direct perception. Golden rule+universality principal+Promote benefits-harm+logical consistency=morality.BeTheChange.

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Post by Scott » January 25th, 2009, 7:27 pm

Why doesn't Santa Claus prove himself?

Please excuse my rhetorical and perhaps flippant question. It made me smile. :P

On a more serious note, the question, "Why doesn't god prove himself?" is meaningless and thus answerable unless the word god is defined. For that reason, I doubt those of you who disagree in your answer to the question will get much of anywhere until you first come to agreement on the question, "What is god?" or "What does the word 'god' mean?"
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Check it out: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often thought?

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Post by Felix » February 10th, 2009, 3:36 pm

"Why doesn't Santa Claus prove himself?"

But he has... to good little boys and girls. Perhaps you didn't qualify?

Grim

Post by Grim » February 11th, 2009, 1:06 am

Anyone seen that one Southpark?

df544
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Post by df544 » February 20th, 2009, 7:15 pm

God is the entirety of Earth.

Right now the highest manifestation of God is consciousness, particularly the consciousness that which America upholds: Freedom.

Because only in a system of Freedom (or poverty, particularly India) can the final truth be figured out.

God is proving himself. He attacked Afghanistan and Iraq. He challenged their beliefs. Their culture. God has not attacked India.

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Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by ape » April 7th, 2009, 10:39 pm

cynicallyinsane wrote:If there is a god, why doesn't he prove that he exists?
God does and must prove that he exists since, based on his own Golden Rules, he calls on all humans to prove all things, one of which things would include God's existence.

Matthew 7:12
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

God's best proof of himself is Love since he calls himself Love.
1 John 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Thus, it makes sense that since most people believe in hating this or that, most people would tend to discount Love as proof of God's existence and so would think that God does not prove and is not proving his existence to us.

But in the meantime God still loves himself as all atheists and so loves all atheists as himself.
Matthew 22:36-40

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him,
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
cynicallyinsane wrote:Why does he leave us without any compelling evidence of his existence?
By not looking at Love, most people wd conclude that there is no compelling evidence of his existence or that God is giving no compelling evidence of his existence.

And God also uses this apparent 'lack of compelling evidence of his existence' for good:
he substitutes any agnostics or atheists or etc for himself as a test to see if theists would love those atheists and so prove that they so really believed in God's existence as Love that they would love those atheists as God and so love God as those atheists.
Matthew 25:
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you,
Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

45Then shall he answer them, saying,
Verily I say unto you,
Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

1 John 4:
20 If a man say, I love God,
and hateth his brother, he is a liar:
for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

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Martin Ekdahl
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Post by Martin Ekdahl » July 15th, 2009, 8:13 am

The question why God doesn't prove itself (I prefer using the neutral "it") is based on the assumption that God have to be proven. But assume that God is everything. In that case it doesn't need any proofs. Just look at your hand and realize it is the hand of God and you will see that it has already proven itself.
"The meaning with life must be to do something meaningful with your life".

Simon says...
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Post by Simon says... » July 15th, 2009, 9:59 am

he doesn't because god is neither nessesarily existing, or observable...he is the result of pure speculation...

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Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by rayback » July 15th, 2009, 10:14 am

cynicallyinsane wrote:
If there is a god, why doesn't he prove that he exists?

Why does he leave us without any compelling evidence of his existence?
First sentence was nice.

Second smelled of a bad assumption.

:wink:

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