Why doesn't god prove himself?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Post Reply
User avatar
Alun
Posts: 1118
Joined: July 11th, 2009, 8:55 pm

Post by Alun » July 16th, 2009, 8:13 pm

Belinda wrote:I don't understand why you winked, alun.
Hmm... and I did hesitate before putting the face in. I mean that we need faith most of the time, not just with respect to God directly. Faith in the dollar, faith in combustion engines, faith in tap water, faith in pills, and most importantly faith in people--including ourselves. I guess I winked because it also takes a lot of faith in God to think about Him teaching us--in a condescending parental kind of way--a lesson in faith by giving us so many problems to deal with apparently all on our own.

Was your whole post relevant to my wink? I'm not sure I followed it all wrt God proving Himself.
"I have nothing new to teach the world" -Mohandas "Mahatma" Gandhi

nameless
Posts: 1234
Joined: May 13th, 2008, 9:06 pm
Location: Here/Now

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by nameless » July 16th, 2009, 11:51 pm

cynicallyinsane wrote:If there is a god, why doesn't he prove that he exists? Why does he leave us without any compelling evidence of his existence?
I had a dream once.
I was quite lucid, knew clearly that it was a dream.
I was on an old railroad car; wood and leather and linseed oil and saddle soap old.
There were two people in the seat in front of Boopsie and me.
They were silently listening as I was telling Boopsie that this was my dream. She didn't believe me, 'knew' that it wasn't.
I told her that i would prove that it was my dream.
The people in front of us rolled their eyes waiting for the demonstration.
I told Boops to hold her hand aloft for a moment. I then proceeded to pass my hand right through her wrist and back out again. There was a slight 'hissing' sound.
She was stunned! Speachless!
The people in front of us saw what happened but immediately turned back around, disbelieving what they saw, and working on what might have 'really' happened more in accord with the 'reality' with which they were comfortable.
It only took a few moments for them to have 'interpreted' the 'reality' of what they saw and completely disregard and deny the actuality and the implications therefrom.
Besides, what do I have to 'prove' to people who only exist in my dream?

Perhaps, thats why.

User avatar
Juice
Posts: 1997
Joined: May 8th, 2009, 10:24 pm

Post by Juice » July 16th, 2009, 11:56 pm

Bravo nameless! The essence of realty is the essence of my realty.
When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.

An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis

Fight the illusion!

Belinda
Contributor
Posts: 13760
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Post by Belinda » July 17th, 2009, 3:45 am

Alun my comment about not understanding why you winked related to that sentence only. The rest of my post heartily agreed with your opinion about the nature of faith.

It's a shame that 'faith' has come to mean belief in impossibilites, and/or acceptance of a system of religious beliefs.

I second that 'Bravo nameless!"A concrete example is always more readable and more explanatory than theorising. It's why whitetrshsoldier's example of building operations at the World Trade Centre worked so well. (pun permitting ) It is also why science fiction and fantasy fiction if they are good are accessible entries into philosophy.
Last edited by Belinda on July 17th, 2009, 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

nameless
Posts: 1234
Joined: May 13th, 2008, 9:06 pm
Location: Here/Now

Post by nameless » July 17th, 2009, 3:47 am

Juice wrote:Bravo nameless! The essence of realty is the essence of my realty.
With no boundaries, everywhere is the center.

User avatar
Martin Ekdahl
Posts: 245
Joined: November 30th, 2008, 11:01 am
Location: Rostock
Contact:

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Martin Ekdahl » July 17th, 2009, 7:23 am

nameless wrote:
cynicallyinsane wrote:If there is a god, why doesn't he prove that he exists? Why does he leave us without any compelling evidence of his existence?
I had a dream once.
I was quite lucid, knew clearly that it was a dream.
I was on an old railroad car; wood and leather and linseed oil and saddle soap old.
There were two people in the seat in front of Boopsie and me.
They were silently listening as I was telling Boopsie that this was my dream. She didn't believe me, 'knew' that it wasn't.
I told her that i would prove that it was my dream.
The people in front of us rolled their eyes waiting for the demonstration.
I told Boops to hold her hand aloft for a moment. I then proceeded to pass my hand right through her wrist and back out again. There was a slight 'hissing' sound.
She was stunned! Speachless!
The people in front of us saw what happened but immediately turned back around, disbelieving what they saw, and working on what might have 'really' happened more in accord with the 'reality' with which they were comfortable.
It only took a few moments for them to have 'interpreted' the 'reality' of what they saw and completely disregard and deny the actuality and the implications therefrom.
Besides, what do I have to 'prove' to people who only exist in my dream?

Perhaps, thats why.
That was the best post that I have read on this forum until this date. Nameless, it's crazy, but I had exactly the same experience as you when I fell asleep last night. Reality is in the eyes of the beholder.
"The meaning with life must be to do something meaningful with your life".

User avatar
Martin Ekdahl
Posts: 245
Joined: November 30th, 2008, 11:01 am
Location: Rostock
Contact:

Post by Martin Ekdahl » July 17th, 2009, 7:24 am

nameless wrote:
Juice wrote:Bravo nameless! The essence of realty is the essence of my realty.
With no boundaries, everywhere is the center.
And everyone is the center.
"The meaning with life must be to do something meaningful with your life".

Mr. Pragmatism
Posts: 82
Joined: July 10th, 2009, 4:41 pm

Post by Mr. Pragmatism » July 17th, 2009, 8:31 am

Juice wrote:Bravo nameless! The essence of realty is the essence of my realty.
So you would agree with moral relativity then? Your reality, right?

User avatar
Juice
Posts: 1997
Joined: May 8th, 2009, 10:24 pm

Post by Juice » July 17th, 2009, 1:38 pm

MP- Please tell me how it is that you came to that conclusion by my statement?
When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.

An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis

Fight the illusion!

Belinda
Contributor
Posts: 13760
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Post by Belinda » July 17th, 2009, 2:39 pm

Juice, Mr Pragmatism can answer for himself.May I suggest however that if meanings are all subjective then there is neither objective fact nor objective good.

Mr. Pragmatism
Posts: 82
Joined: July 10th, 2009, 4:41 pm

Post by Mr. Pragmatism » July 17th, 2009, 8:49 pm

Close to what I was thinking Belinda. My thought process was: If each person's reality is a universe unto himself or herself, then all actions within each person's reality are subjectively moralto him to him or her. Or does this subjectivity only relate to god, and nothing else?

User avatar
Juice
Posts: 1997
Joined: May 8th, 2009, 10:24 pm

Post by Juice » July 17th, 2009, 9:00 pm

MP-The problem there is that we do experience a shared reality as is obvious by this dialog so do we take into consideration how we respond to that reality or how that reality responds to us? Likewise if there is an observable reality that should only be of an individual concern what would the sense be to relate to it at all?

Like Socrates said about piety and the Gods. Is good only good as good does or is good as good is? (my words)
When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.

An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis

Fight the illusion!

nameless
Posts: 1234
Joined: May 13th, 2008, 9:06 pm
Location: Here/Now

Post by nameless » July 17th, 2009, 11:10 pm

Martin Ekdahl wrote:
nameless wrote: With no boundaries, everywhere is the center.
And everyone is the center.
Exactly! Same thing!

nameless
Posts: 1234
Joined: May 13th, 2008, 9:06 pm
Location: Here/Now

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by nameless » July 17th, 2009, 11:26 pm

Martin Ekdahl wrote:That was the best post that I have read on this forum until this date. Nameless, it's crazy, but I had exactly the same experience as you when I fell asleep last night. Reality is in the eyes of the beholder.
Thanx, I'm glad that you could find some food for thought in there.
It certainly is!
@__@

Belinda
Contributor
Posts: 13760
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Post by Belinda » July 18th, 2009, 4:08 am

Juice wrote
Like Socrates said about piety and the Gods. Is good only good as good does or is good as good is? (my words
Jesus said it too. Man is not made for the Sabbath the Sabbath is made for man.

Post Reply