Welcome to the Philosophy Forums! If you are not a member, please join the forums now. It's completely free! If you are a member, please log in.

Why doesn't god prove himself?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

Xris

  • Posts: 5893
    ( View: All / In topic )

  • Joined: December 27th, 2010, 11:37 am
  • Location: Cornwall UK

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post Number:#121  PostApril 17th, 2012, 10:25 am

Fanman wrote:Jklint,

Is it logical to believe in the placebo-effect? it doesn't seem logical to me, to believe that if a placebo is given to someone that has an illness. That the mere thought of being better will make that person better? Evangelistic preachers, preach that very same thing "mind-over-matter" only they call it having faith... If the placebo effect is real and works, then it is something which defies logic, because the person has been given no actual medicine, but gets better.

Xris,

I don't think the loss of my life would indicate that there is no God. The fact that he saved me once, does not mean that he will save me again. We all have to leave this world sometime and somehow...
So it is pure faith that makes you believe he saved you and you alone. Why would he be so secretive about it and why does he not save the child from being brutally raped and murdered? O I remember we have not the ability to understand gods will? So why make out you know so much but know so little? Point to the beautiful flower as evidence of gods goodness but ignores the nasty little worm that burrows into a young child's brain. Selective beliefs and understanding only undermines your determination to prove your god. Why should god not indicate his existence in real terms. There is more evidence of Robin Hood or King Arthur than Jesus Christ, they are treated as simple myths, with moral values we can all admire. You do not need magical figures to teach you morality or become a better man Fanman. The ethics Christ taught are older than his myth are you honestly telling me you would be evil without biblical education?

Did you know?

  • Once you join the forums and log in you will get to enjoy an ad-reduced experience. It's easy and completely free!

Offline

Jklint

  • Posts: 617
    ( View: All / In topic )

  • Joined: February 23rd, 2012, 3:06 am

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post Number:#122  PostApril 17th, 2012, 3:46 pm

Fanman wrote:Jklint,

Is it logical to believe in the placebo-effect? it doesn't seem logical to me, to believe that if a placebo is given to someone that has an illness. That the mere thought of being better will make that person better? Evangelistic preachers, preach that very same thing "mind-over-matter" only they call it having faith... If the placebo effect is real and works, then it is something which defies logic, because the person has been given no actual medicine, but gets better.

Xris,

I don't think the loss of my life would indicate that there is no God. The fact that he saved me once, does not mean that he will save me again. We all have to leave this world sometime and somehow...


There are many different manifestations of mind over matter. I'm surprised you would question this! The "placebo effect" is merely one instance of this. Your's is also a specimen of that called mind over matter-of-fact which yields unquestioning faith, its reasons completely impervious to analysis which is a must if it is to retain its independence.

Faith is a much harder nugget than any fact which, if necessary, can be re-factualized whereas faith stands its ground regardless of whether or not there's a Mongol horde of facts facing it. If you want to believe that Jesus is your Saviour, that he performed miracles (he was in good company, there were plenty of them), that he rose from the dead (you'd think the Romans would have noticed), so be it. You definitely have the right - that is a fact.

What I'm confused about is why write about it on a philosophy forum? Why not just live with your faith or consort with people who believe as you do. Why advertise what to most people - especially on philosophy and science sites - is nothing more than a whole range of non sequiturs. There is virtually nothing in faith which can be justified by what is already known and understood. It is its own endorsement, a closed loop. I don't mean any disrespect but what's there to talk about. It's all yours and completely subject to YOUR validation. No one needs to know your reasons. They're already well known and held by those who believe as you do. If Christ is the be all and end all and you know that for sure, what's left to say? You can't justify anything to anyone who acknowledges history and we can't convince those who, for reasons of their own, run counter to it...and there's nothing in between.
Offline
User avatar

Fanman

Moderator

  • Posts: 2162
    ( View: All / In topic )

  • Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post Number:#123  PostApril 18th, 2012, 8:33 am

Xris,

My belief that God saved me, is based on a combination of faith and logic. You are making things up now, when did I say that God saved only me? I don't know why God allows bad things to happen to children, but I do note that you worship a god who allows those things to happen to children. You then justify your belief by stating that your god "nature" is non-sentient. Thus, you have talior made "a god" to suit your agenda. What is your excuse for that? I believe in God knowing that he created both good and evil. There is nothing ”selective” about my belief in him. God does not have the burden of proving his existence to you, in a way that you feel he should. He has proven himself already, whether we choose to believe with the evidence that is present is our free choice. As such, I choose to believe; whilst you choose not to, it is that simple.

I am not saying that without the bible in my life I would be evil, but the bible has certainly taught me a great deal about morality, and made me a better person, that is a fact. Not to mention the wisdom that I have gained from it. You don't have to accept what I am saying, but it is true.

Jklint,

Firstly, I was not "advertising" my faith as you incorrectly indicate, I was giving my input into the topic question. Do you not think it normal that a topic regarding God, and why he doesn't prove himself, might bring up the subject of faith? Did I go off-topic? You are the one waxing lyrical about faith. Furthermore, you have completely avoided the questions I raised about the "placebo effect" not being logical or the concept of mind-over-matter also not being logical. Yet you believe in them. How is that logical?
Wisdom and understanding are necessary requisites of life, but in order to acquire them, we must have good teachers. I believe the art of philosophy is one such teacher, if not the best. E.M.Bedeau aka The Reader.
Offline

Xris

  • Posts: 5893
    ( View: All / In topic )

  • Joined: December 27th, 2010, 11:37 am
  • Location: Cornwall UK

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post Number:#124  PostApril 18th, 2012, 8:50 am

Fanman my concept of god is a practical matter that simply accepts that nature is force that created us all. Do you refuse to accept nature created us? You have given nature substance and describe it by use of the bible. If the bible describes the god that uses nature you have to explain why god saves you but lets millions of children die every day. You can not shy away from the very questions that belief depends on. You can not believe in a caring god but then accept he lets children die constantly. If he has entered your life you must have accepted him as the truth but how can you when you accept ignorance of him?
Offline
User avatar

Fanman

Moderator

  • Posts: 2162
    ( View: All / In topic )

  • Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post Number:#125  PostApril 18th, 2012, 10:02 am

Xris,

I cannot explain exactly why God chose to save me, yet allows millions of children to die, but like I explained to you when we were discussing this on a prior occasion, maybe he (God) wanted me to give a testimony of him, based upon my experiences, which I have done in my book. Also, why can't I believe that God can be caring yet allow millions of children to die, because it is not logical?
Wisdom and understanding are necessary requisites of life, but in order to acquire them, we must have good teachers. I believe the art of philosophy is one such teacher, if not the best. E.M.Bedeau aka The Reader.
Offline

Xris

  • Posts: 5893
    ( View: All / In topic )

  • Joined: December 27th, 2010, 11:37 am
  • Location: Cornwall UK

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post Number:#126  PostApril 18th, 2012, 12:33 pm

Fanman wrote:Xris,

I cannot explain exactly why God chose to save me, yet allows millions of children to die, but like I explained to you when we were discussing this on a prior occasion, maybe he (God) wanted me to give a testimony of him, based upon my experiences, which I have done in my book. Also, why can't I believe that God can be caring yet allow millions of children to die, because it is not logical?

So your god saved you to give testament to his existance but could have done it so much more convincingly by saving those children. You tell me how you can believe in a god who can idly stand back and constantly watch thousands upon thousands of children die for some unfathomable reasoning. Have you ever considered he might not just be there and you are deluded?
Offline
User avatar

Fanman

Moderator

  • Posts: 2162
    ( View: All / In topic )

  • Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post Number:#127  PostApril 18th, 2012, 1:01 pm

Xris, because God doesn't live up to your expectations and doesn't do what you think he should (how arrogant are you?) does not mean that he does not exist. You shouldn't be so quick to call others deluded, when you believe that nature is a god and worship it as such...
Wisdom and understanding are necessary requisites of life, but in order to acquire them, we must have good teachers. I believe the art of philosophy is one such teacher, if not the best. E.M.Bedeau aka The Reader.
Offline

Xris

  • Posts: 5893
    ( View: All / In topic )

  • Joined: December 27th, 2010, 11:37 am
  • Location: Cornwall UK

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post Number:#128  PostApril 18th, 2012, 2:07 pm

Fanman wrote:Xris, because God doesn't live up to your expectations and doesn't do what you think he should (how arrogant are you?) does not mean that he does not exist. You shouldn't be so quick to call others deluded, when you believe that nature is a god and worship it as such...

So god is not to be expected to care for children? We should accept he is aloof to their suffering for century after century? I think it is arogant to expect any logical thinking human to believe god can help one individual to spread his message but ignore thousands of children because they do not serve his purpose. My god does not make claims of benevolence and then allow untold millions of children to die of hunger and decease. I admit my god is immune to suffering or joy it does not even have the ability of awareness. My god is callous cruel and gifted. Is yours any different? If so tell how he differs?
Offline
User avatar

Fanman

Moderator

  • Posts: 2162
    ( View: All / In topic )

  • Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post Number:#129  PostApril 18th, 2012, 4:20 pm

Xris, I expect God to care for who he chooses to care for. I just hope that I come under that umbrella. Like I've stated on numerous occasions I do not know why he allows children to suffer, so I think that you can stop asking me that question, about children... Logic what a tool! It destroyed your faith and constructed a god for you from the system of nature, that you now worship. How is that any different to faith? My faith is a great asset to me, and I think that I have a good relationship with God. Therefore, I think i'll keep my faith and recognise logic for what it is, a good problem solving tool, but not perfect as the chicken and the egg problem so beautifully illustrates.
Wisdom and understanding are necessary requisites of life, but in order to acquire them, we must have good teachers. I believe the art of philosophy is one such teacher, if not the best. E.M.Bedeau aka The Reader.
Offline

Xris

  • Posts: 5893
    ( View: All / In topic )

  • Joined: December 27th, 2010, 11:37 am
  • Location: Cornwall UK

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post Number:#130  PostApril 18th, 2012, 4:53 pm

Fanman wrote:Xris, I expect God to care for who he chooses to care for. I just hope that I come under that umbrella. Like I've stated on numerous occasions I do not know why he allows children to suffer, so I think that you can stop asking me that question, about children... Logic what a tool! It destroyed your faith and constructed a god for you from the system of nature, that you now worship. How is that any different to faith? My faith is a great asset to me, and I think that I have a good relationship with God. Therefore, I think i'll keep my faith and recognise logic for what it is, a good problem solving tool, but not perfect as the chicken and the egg problem so beautifully illustrates.

Someone told me if you could reason with faith then there would be no reason to reason. I will not stopping asking you crucial questions Fanman. They may be difficult, they maybe impossible but you do need to confront them. Logic set me free from the lie that is god. Faith without reason is like a man fishing knowing there is no fish to catch. You can not answer one of the most important questions you should be asking yourself and you can not reason a reply. You arrogantly proclaim that god saved you to spread his message but you have no idea why he ignores the most vulnerable of his creation. Imaging being an omniscient god and watching child after child in terrible pain and not even finding the will to explain why. Why you stand by and watch impassively. Ignorance of his intentions only magnifies your faith as blind. If he gave you life to transmit his message Fanman you are not really living up to his expectations.
Offline

Jklint

  • Posts: 617
    ( View: All / In topic )

  • Joined: February 23rd, 2012, 3:06 am

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post Number:#131  PostApril 18th, 2012, 5:42 pm

You believe God intervened and saved your life which convinced you of God's existence, of Jesus' divinity, of the validity of the Bible, etc. Fine! so now what! That was the critical event for you - in which you're not alone - but really have nothing more to say on the subject than this.

Some people's minds are just wired for God and accept any "special" occurence as proof of its existence. But the mind still demands a "story" and the scriptures serve that purpose.

Like a placebo, a pill, an injection with nothing in it, its effectiveness - at least for awhile - is based on belief only like faith itself. But to be accurate the Placebo Effect has nothing to do with Mind Over Matter. That is really a different subject even though there does seem to be an alliance. Not that the following will mean anything to you but here are a few links:

http://phys.org/news105029324.html
scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=p ... n-the-mind
cancer.org/Treatment/TreatmentsandSideE ... ebo-effect

If I "wax lyrical about faith" it's only because one has to wonder at anything which is so hermetically sealed to outside influence to facts long discovered which is precisely the precondition to any Act of Faith. In short, there's no point to discussion because you won't let anything else in. As you said
I think i'll keep my faith and recognize logic for what it is, a good problem solving tool, but not perfect as the chicken and the egg problem so beautifully illustrates.
Case closed! If that's all there is what's it doing on a philosophy forum? Any ideas thrown thrown your way are a total waste if you think "the chicken and the egg" is still a problem.


This is my last remark but if a human behaved the way God does, hiding himself, depending on humans to endorse him through faith alone, causing more misery than even the devil himself is willing to claim - but in all fairness even the Nazis behaved reasonably well on occasion - then I would consider that human the ultimate coward and scumbag. But strangely enough it all makes sense when God is simply removed and not factored in at all.

Unlike Xris, I don't think there's any point in continuing with someone whose faith is more in the nature of an inert gas completely incapable combining with anything else. The Chicken and the Egg is the final proof of that!
Offline
User avatar

Fanman

Moderator

  • Posts: 2162
    ( View: All / In topic )

  • Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post Number:#132  PostApril 19th, 2012, 7:09 am

Xris,

Are you saying that faith is not reasonable or that an individual with faith cannot reason? You can ask me any questions you like, but if you ask me the same questions over and over again, then you can expect the same answers over and over again, isn't that logical? When you say "You can not answer one of the most important questions you should be asking yourself and you can not reason a reply." What question is that? And there you go again making things up. I didn't arrogantly proclaim anything, I merely stated one of the reasons that I had faith. You asked me "why do I think God saved me?" And I explained to you that perhaps he wanted me to give a testimony about him. Where do you perceive arrogance in that? You, the same person who doesn't believe in God and calls me arrogant for merely reciting an event and adding a purpose to it, states that that I am not living up to God's expectations?

Jklint,

I understand what the placebo effect is, the question I have been asking you, is if you think that the placebo effect is logical? Also, do you genuinely believe that you solved the chicken and the egg problem? The answer you gave last time left us with the dilemma of what came first the reptile or the egg? Furthermore, logic has led you to believe that Nazi's behaved reasonable at times, when did this reasonable behaviour from Nazi's occur?
Wisdom and understanding are necessary requisites of life, but in order to acquire them, we must have good teachers. I believe the art of philosophy is one such teacher, if not the best. E.M.Bedeau aka The Reader.
Offline

Xris

  • Posts: 5893
    ( View: All / In topic )

  • Joined: December 27th, 2010, 11:37 am
  • Location: Cornwall UK

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post Number:#133  PostApril 19th, 2012, 7:39 am

Fanman as long as you keep refering to your experience as a valid reason to believe in god I will continue to ask the same questions. It is an act of arrogance to believe god saved you for a known reason but you can not logically reply why god allows children to suffer and die. What if I put a child in your arms and asked you watch it die of hunger. What would you do?
Offline
User avatar

Fanman

Moderator

  • Posts: 2162
    ( View: All / In topic )

  • Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post Number:#134  PostApril 19th, 2012, 8:15 am

Xris,

Xris wrote:Fanman as long as you keep refering to your experience as a valid reason to believe in god I will continue to ask the same questions. It is an act of arrogance to believe god saved you for a known reason but you can not logically reply why god allows children to suffer and die. What if I put a child in your arms and asked you watch it die of hunger. What would you do?


That's just your opinion, I see no arrogance in believing and testifying that God saved me, why you do I don't know? That's fine, you can keep on asking me the same questions, but don't be surprised if you get the same answers or I ignore the questions, for lack of wanting to have a circular argument with you. It is obvious what point you are trying to make using logic, but I am not God, nor can I answer for him, Just because I would try to save a childs life, does not reflect badly upon God because he allows a child to suffer and die. God could have a myriad of reasons for allowing that to happen, which are deeper than the situation taken at face value.
Wisdom and understanding are necessary requisites of life, but in order to acquire them, we must have good teachers. I believe the art of philosophy is one such teacher, if not the best. E.M.Bedeau aka The Reader.
Offline

Xris

  • Posts: 5893
    ( View: All / In topic )

  • Joined: December 27th, 2010, 11:37 am
  • Location: Cornwall UK

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post Number:#135  PostApril 19th, 2012, 8:18 am

Fanman wrote:Xris,

Xris wrote:Fanman as long as you keep refering to your experience as a valid reason to believe in god I will continue to ask the same questions. It is an act of arrogance to believe god saved you for a known reason but you can not logically reply why god allows children to suffer and die. What if I put a child in your arms and asked you watch it die of hunger. What would you do?


That's just your opinion, I see no arrogance in believing and testifying that God saved me, why you do I don't know? That's fine, you can keep on asking me the same questions, but don't be surprised if you get the same answers or I ignore the questions, for lack of wanting to have a circular argument with you. It is obvious what point you are trying to make using logic, but I am not God, nor can I answer for him, Just because I would try to save a childs life, does not reflect badly upon God because he allows a child to suffer and die. God could have a myriad of reasons for allowing that to happen, which are deeper than the situation taken at face value.

Well if there are that many possible reasons why god ignores their plight, surely you could name just a few.
PreviousNext

Return to Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Philosophy Book of the Month Updates

The January book of the month is The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. Discuss it here or buy it here.

The February book of the month is Moral Tribes by Joshua Greene. Pick it up, read it and discuss it with us as a group!