Which gods don't you believe in, and why don't you?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Re: Which gods don't you believe in, and why don't you?

Post by LuckyR »

This strikes me as a thread that would benefit from parsing the difference between God and religion.
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Re: Which gods don't you believe in, and why don't you?

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

LuckyR wrote:This strikes me as a thread that would benefit from parsing the difference between God and religion.
@LuckyR Will you please answer the questions in the OP?
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I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
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Re: Which gods don't you believe in, and why don't you?

Post by Belinda »

Yesterday evening I encountered a god in the damp dusk where fallen leaves were rotting and becoming scented earth. There was no breath of wind and the only other person I met told me that he too liked the peacefulness and that he often walked with his quiet dog at midnight. If I were to intellectualise the god of the rotting leaves at dusk I'd say it was a goddess who presided over natural and beneficial changes in nature.
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Re: Which gods don't you believe in, and why don't you?

Post by LuckyR »

Scott wrote:
LuckyR wrote:This strikes me as a thread that would benefit from parsing the difference between God and religion.
@LuckyR Will you please answer the questions in the OP?
Since I don't believe in (subscribe to) organized religion, I don't specifically "believe in" any of the 9,OTOH, I don't discount the existence of a superior being who might choose one name or backstory over another, so any could be technically correct.
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Re: Which gods don't you believe in, and why don't you?

Post by Ser10Rec1pr0 »

Scott wrote:If you can please answer all of the following 9 sets of questions:

1. Do you believe in Zeus and his parents Cronus and Rhea and the other gods of ancient Greek religion? If not, why not?
2. Do you believe Allah as described in Islam exists? If not, why not?
3. Do you believe Xenu and the thetans as described by Scientology exist?
4. Do you believe "God" as described by Christianity exists? If not, why not?
5. Do you believe in Amaterasu and Susanoo and the other gods of the Shinto religion? If not, why not?
6. Do you believe in Cai Shen the Chinese god of prosperity and Zao Jun the Chinese kitchen god as described by Chinese traditional religion?
7. Do you believe Adonai as described by Judaism exists? If not, why not?
8. Do you believe Vishnu, Indra, Agni and the other Hindu gods exist? If not, why not?
9. Do you believe in Waheguru the god of the Sikhism religion? If not, why not? ...
For the most part, I believe that the people by which all those gods are first described believed in those gods. I am convinced also that belief in a god & worship of one are not the same.

I can believe that the Old Testament Adonai or Lord of Hosts or Yahweh existed for those described in the O.T. But I cannot in good conscience worship that god that was at once impulsive & vindictive but had His reputation caressed & soothed by David's Psalms ("slow to anger"); this despite David's own experience to the contrary [the Uzzah incident; God's threat to destroy everything (again!)].

Too much of the O.T. after the Chronicles seems a vast propaganda ploy to convince the semi-faithful that Adonai wasn't the beast he's portrayed as in Exodus & the Kings. I mean, on several occasions (Moses, Abraham, David) God is rebuked for His spiteful ways. & In Amos 7, 8, God tells Amos He's done with them.

Then He appears (presumably) from Heaven in the N.T. more or less as a character witness for Jesus; & this despite that statement by Solomon that God is too big even for Heaven. The 19th-cent. romantic idealism turned the God of the Holy Bible into the omnipotent & omniscient character He's portrayed as today; after all, He's as shocked as Moses to discover Aaron (who still gets to be First Priest, despite contravening a Commandment) has fashioned the golden calf.
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Re: Which gods don't you believe in, and why don't you?

Post by TimLear »

Scott wrote:If you can please answer all of the following 9 sets of questions:

1. Do you believe in Zeus and his parents Cronus and Rhea and the other gods of ancient Greek religion? If not, why not?
2. Do you believe Allah as described in Islam exists? If not, why not?
3. Do you believe Xenu and the thetans as described by Scientology exist?
4. Do you believe "God" as described by Christianity exists? If not, why not?
5. Do you believe in Amaterasu and Susanoo and the other gods of the Shinto religion? If not, why not?
6. Do you believe in Cai Shen the Chinese god of prosperity and Zao Jun the Chinese kitchen god as described by Chinese traditional religion?
7. Do you believe Adonai as described by Judaism exists? If not, why not?
8. Do you believe Vishnu, Indra, Agni and the other Hindu gods exist? If not, why not?
9. Do you believe in Waheguru the god of the Sikhism religion? If not, why not?


I have to assume that your answer to at least 8 of those 9 questions is no. I'm curious to see what reasons people have for not believing in the existence of some gods, particularly if they believe in one or more other gods.

I am going say I used to be an atheist. Then I delved into some mystical philosophy.

I experienced some things and I will say I believe in all of the mentioned existence, due to said experiences.

The problem? Visions and dreams are not proof of their existence.

Proving their existence is not the point. The point is to use such concepts to transform one self into a better person. To know your self and master your self.
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Re: Which gods don't you believe in, and why don't you?

Post by Belinda »

LuckyR wrote:This strikes me as a thread that would benefit from parsing the difference between God and religion.
I wish that TimLear had taken this to heart before adding his list of several gods which presumably he takes to be an exhaustive list of gods. He doesn't even define 'gods' or differentiate them from spirits of place, revered ancestors, Roman Catholic saints, angels, or idols.
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Re: Which gods don't you believe in, and why don't you?

Post by Sy Borg »

TimLear wrote:
Scott wrote:If you can please answer all of the following 9 sets of questions:

1. Do you believe in Zeus and his parents Cronus and Rhea and the other gods of ancient Greek religion? If not, why not?
2. Do you believe Allah as described in Islam exists? If not, why not?
3. Do you believe Xenu and the thetans as described by Scientology exist?
4. Do you believe "God" as described by Christianity exists? If not, why not?
5. Do you believe in Amaterasu and Susanoo and the other gods of the Shinto religion? If not, why not?
6. Do you believe in Cai Shen the Chinese god of prosperity and Zao Jun the Chinese kitchen god as described by Chinese traditional religion?
7. Do you believe Adonai as described by Judaism exists? If not, why not?
8. Do you believe Vishnu, Indra, Agni and the other Hindu gods exist? If not, why not?
9. Do you believe in Waheguru the god of the Sikhism religion? If not, why not?

I have to assume that your answer to at least 8 of those 9 questions is no. I'm curious to see what reasons people have for not believing in the existence of some gods, particularly if they believe in one or more other gods.
I am going say I used to be an atheist. Then I delved into some mystical philosophy.

I experienced some things and I will say I believe in all of the mentioned existence, due to said experiences.

The problem? Visions and dreams are not proof of their existence.

Proving their existence is not the point. The point is to use such concepts to transform one self into a better person. To know your self and master your self.
Fair enough, Tim, although efficacy is not necessarily equal to ontological truth. Myths and delusions do have potency. For example, sports teams often aim to delude themselves into producing performances that are above their expected capabilities - to perform above their station, "punch above their weight". They effectively tell themselves sweet lies in order to boost confidence. What they tell themselves ("we're a better team") might not be not true, but it aids performance. The gods may be like that.

Then again, as your post suggests, rather than deluding themselves, maybe positive thinking exercises help sportspeople put aside self defeating narratives, eg. "We're not good enough", that previously prevented them from tapping into their potentials - and thus a deeper truth. The deeper truth in that instance is the miraculous biological machine of the body and mind and their frequent under-utilisation. It is something most of us tend to take for granted because we'd not get anything done if we spent all our time appreciating the miraculous nature of everything.

That's what religions, philosophies (and increasingly the sciences) do - they remind people of the miraculous nature of reality that the practicalities of life forces them to forget.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
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Re: Which gods don't you believe in, and why don't you?

Post by Londoner »

Scott wrote:If you can please answer all of the following 9 sets of questions:

1. Do you believe in Zeus and his parents Cronus and Rhea and the other gods of ancient Greek religion? If not, why not?
2. Do you believe Allah as described in Islam exists? If not, why not?...

As for me, I'm an atheist. My answer to all of those questions is no. I don't believe things without evidence, particularly supernatural things that would invalidate currently known natural laws concluded from valid inductive inference.
That last bit is circular; you are saying you believe in things, because you believe that the reason you believe those things is 'valid'.

Somebody who answered 'yes' to all your questions could say exactly the same thing.

(And obviously a belief in God will not be in accordance with 'natural laws' since a belief in God is the belief that 'natural laws' are not all there is. It is like saying 'The reason I do not believe in monism is because it contradicts dualism'.)

As it stands, it is not a philosophical question but only an opinion poll. For somebody to say 'I believe in Zeus' and another to say 'I don't' is not a contradiction, since both are describing themselves.

But if this was a discussion about the sort of evidence that might validate a belief, then we would need to know more precisely what that belief was. For example, if I believed that Zeus lived on Mt Olympus in the same way as any other material object, then we might agree that we could justify that belief by going to Greece and having a look. But If I believed in Zeus as a conceptual embodiment of the noumenal world, then such a belief would be justified by a philosophical argument around the noumenal.

Pending such an understanding, how would any yes/no answer be informative?'
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Re: Which gods don't you believe in, and why don't you?

Post by TimLear »

Greta wrote:
TimLear wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


I am going say I used to be an atheist. Then I delved into some mystical philosophy.

I experienced some things and I will say I believe in all of the mentioned existence, due to said experiences.

The problem? Visions and dreams are not proof of their existence.

Proving their existence is not the point. The point is to use such concepts to transform one self into a better person. To know your self and master your self.
Fair enough, Tim, although efficacy is not necessarily equal to ontological truth. Myths and delusions do have potency. For example, sports teams often aim to delude themselves into producing performances that are above their expected capabilities - to perform above their station, "punch above their weight". They effectively tell themselves sweet lies in order to boost confidence. What they tell themselves ("we're a better team") might not be not true, but it aids performance. The gods may be like that.

Then again, as your post suggests, rather than deluding themselves, maybe positive thinking exercises help sportspeople put aside self defeating narratives, eg. "We're not good enough", that previously prevented them from tapping into their potentials - and thus a deeper truth. The deeper truth in that instance is the miraculous biological machine of the body and mind and their frequent under-utilisation. It is something most of us tend to take for granted because we'd not get anything done if we spent all our time appreciating the miraculous nature of everything.

That's what religions, philosophies (and increasingly the sciences) do - they remind people of the miraculous nature of reality that the practicalities of life forces them to forget.
Delusion? You have to under stand. The idea is to use delusion to destroy one's delusions.

Not positive thinking exercises. Emotional health. Big differences. Positive thinking is one method.

Let's talk about Buddha, Jesus and St Anthony.

Each one of them before reaching their spiritual goal, ended up being tormented by demons or tempted by Satan.
These are not actual spirits, but psychological demons to be more accurate. Those were reflections of the side side of those men.

I cannot find the article, but I read also about an exorcist in training. He commented the common thread amongst the victims were people who suffered some sort of emotional trauma. May it be from war or being abused when growing up.

For me? The prayers and what not began the process of dredging up all my emotional baggage from child hood. The visions would get more intense and longer in duration. So would the nightmares. I had a choice. Either accept certain parts of myself, deal with the trauma or go permanently insane.

The whole point of worshipping god is the psychological equivalent of downloading an anti virus or of a more perfect, better, healthy you.

I dont like to talk about this cause it makes me look "kooky" but the OP did ask. Second, it is what it is.
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Re: Which gods don't you believe in, and why don't you?

Post by Sy Borg »

TimLear wrote:I am going say I used to be an atheist. Then I delved into some mystical philosophy.

I experienced some things and I will say I believe in all of the mentioned existence, due to said experiences.

The problem? Visions and dreams are not proof of their existence.

Proving their existence is not the point. The point is to use such concepts to transform one self into a better person. To know your self and master your self.
Greta wrote:Fair enough, Tim, although efficacy is not necessarily equal to ontological truth. Myths and delusions do have potency. For example, sports teams often aim to delude themselves into producing performances that are above their expected capabilities - to perform above their station, "punch above their weight". They effectively tell themselves sweet lies in order to boost confidence. What they tell themselves ("we're a better team") might not be not true, but it aids performance. The gods may be like that.

Then again, as your post suggests, rather than deluding themselves, maybe positive thinking exercises help sportspeople put aside self defeating narratives, eg. "We're not good enough", that previously prevented them from tapping into their potentials - and thus a deeper truth. The deeper truth in that instance is the miraculous biological machine of the body and mind and their frequent under-utilisation. It is something most of us tend to take for granted because we'd not get anything done if we spent all our time appreciating the miraculous nature of everything.

That's what religions, philosophies (and increasingly the sciences) do - they remind people of the miraculous nature of reality that the practicalities of life forces them to forget.
TimLear wrote:Delusion? You have to understand. The idea is to use delusion to destroy one's delusions.

Not positive thinking exercises. Emotional health. Big differences. Positive thinking is one method.
My post effectively talked about that - to "use delusion to destroy one's delusions". As I said, we are forced by practicalities to delude ourselves that life and existence are prosaic and dreary. We tell ourselves that we are weaker and more limited than we are, firstly to enjoy the safety of under-promising and over-delivering, and then repeated "safe transactions" can condition us to habitually limit ourselves. So our potentials, both subjective and objective, are greater than we usually realise.
TimLear wrote:Let's talk about Buddha, Jesus and St Anthony.

Each one of them before reaching their spiritual goal, ended up being tormented by demons or tempted by Satan.
These are not actual spirits, but psychological demons to be more accurate. Those were reflections of the side side of those men.
Yes, gods and spirits (and the saints of Catholicism's Hindu-esque polytheism) would seem to be the human experience of various tendencies and attributes of reality that lie in all of us. We all have within us an element of the saint, sinner, Madonna, whore, sage, fool, lover, warrior, creator, destroyer, merchant, dreamer and so on in varying degrees, and at varying times in our lives. These qualities float through and around us constantly like spirits. Sometimes we give them names.
TimLear wrote:... it makes me look "kooky" ...
Join the club. Never mind. You might also seem crazy if you were trying to explain orgasm to the chaste. Some experiences are beyond words and leave one with only fanciful-sounding superlatives to act as a weak and unrealistic representations of what occurred. For those who are yet to experience such things, skepticism is understandable and appropriate.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
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Re: Which gods don't you believe in, and why don't you?

Post by LuckyR »

Belinda wrote:
LuckyR wrote:This strikes me as a thread that would benefit from parsing the difference between God and religion.
I wish that TimLear had taken this to heart before adding his list of several gods which presumably he takes to be an exhaustive list of gods. He doesn't even define 'gods' or differentiate them from spirits of place, revered ancestors, Roman Catholic saints, angels, or idols.
Great minds think alike (and fools never differ). The crux of the thread isn't God 1 vs God 2, rather that once the religious fluff is stripped off most of the numerous gods fall out into a few categories and thus can be grouped for the sake of clarity.
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Re: Which gods don't you believe in, and why don't you?

Post by Belinda »

TimLear wrote:
The whole point of worshipping god is the psychological equivalent of downloading an anti virus or of a more perfect, better, healthy you.

There are other uses for worshipping a god some of which are communal uses such as inspiring fighting men with courage, protecting the land or water that are essential to the community's life, inspiring solidarity among an organised group of people, or conserving society's traditional values.

Apart from communal uses for god worship TimLear's point of worshipping a god , i.e. for one's own mental health, or to put it another way for one's own soul, is excellent. Some people have their own rituals for communing with their god while others adopt the conventions of some religion, such as Muslims' praying rituals, or the lighting of a candle, or the ritual of the mass or holy communion. Some people like to pray in solitude.

I think that the OP question is naïve. Unless people are worshipping for communal benefit their god to whom they pray is unique for each person and cannot be otherwise than unique to each person because the prayer is a humble plea for guidance .
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Re: Which gods don't you believe in, and why don't you?

Post by The Beast »

Hello. It looks like a list of traditions. I will introduce the Gods into my Pantheon with a footnote (I believe) assimilating the traditions into the one of my own just as the Romans did. It must be the philosophical content that is important. The love of wisdom and truth. As I was reading the ‘Apology’ of Plato (back when) I was designated the public defender for I believed that Socrates was innocent and all he was guilty of was his love of the truth. Today I pay more attention to the little details of being always drunk or why Plato wrote about Socrates leaving the house of his pupil in the wee hours of the morning. Was he an unbeliever or just human? What I said then is that his last words were to the vision of a God coming to take him. It was a God like the Phoenician Eshmun or the Greek Asclepius. How the truth changed? Philosophical tradition: Did Socrates saw the divine? It is the view of the divine that gives a form to the metaphysical mind. The word descendent comes to the front. Descend as in the ground and on the ground and on the shoulders. But, if they are on my shoulders why are they descendants and not ascendants? Why are the Gods in the Heavens and not in the Hades of the Earth?... like the Etruscan Vediovis. It is a long list. If there is no list then I have a vision of Hades coming to us. We cannot stop being who we are as the tradition said: “Blessed be He who has given the cock intelligence” or in Job 38:36 a little. As the cock sings three times perhaps Socrates saw a visible sign of the Divine prompting to tell Crito to sacrifice a rooster to the God he knew as the highest. It was tradition to do this when the wish was granted.
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Re: Which gods don't you believe in, and why don't you?

Post by TimLear »

Belinda wrote:TimLear wrote:
The whole point of worshipping god is the psychological equivalent of downloading an anti virus or of a more perfect, better, healthy you.

There are other uses for worshipping a god some of which are communal uses such as inspiring fighting men with courage, protecting the land or water that are essential to the community's life, inspiring solidarity among an organised group of people, or conserving society's traditional values.

Apart from communal uses for god worship TimLear's point of worshipping a god , i.e. for one's own mental health, or to put it another way for one's own soul, is excellent. Some people have their own rituals for communing with their god while others adopt the conventions of some religion, such as Muslims' praying rituals, or the lighting of a candle, or the ritual of the mass or holy communion. Some people like to pray in solitude.

I think that the OP question is naïve. Unless people are worshipping for communal benefit their god to whom they pray is unique for each person and cannot be otherwise than unique to each person because the prayer is a humble plea for guidance .
The OPs question is about spirits. One cannot talk about such things without having the paranormal being discussed. I have had paranormal experiences as a result directly from those practices.
I believe in such things due to these experiences. As in actual existence. The problem is there is no way to prove their existence due to the murky, multi faceted and subjective nature of the whole thing.

I have dealt with evil spirits before. -They are known as "parasites"
These beings feed on people who are emotionally unwell. The way I got rid of them was to get more healthy. '
These were manifestations of my psyche's wounds I acquired when I was a child. They were a result of having a mother who had some emotional baggage of her own and unwittingly passed them on to me.

Many people who had the same experiences, no matter what tradition say the same thing.
The best protection against alot of spiritual maladies is
good health.

I understand the op may see my claims as a sign of something amiss with me. Thats fine. However, the idea being healthy is the opposite of evil, is something to deeply consider.
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