If there is a God, why is there evil?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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JBH74
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by JBH74 »

My failure to manage life on my own as an atheist opened my mind and led me to Christianity. Once I started praying and become religious, I discovered that my religion offered new answers to the perennial philosophical questions such as this one. The reason most people don't understand the existence of evil is that they believe that there is only one supernatural power at work in the world. The truth is, there are two. One of them is determined to destroy each and every one of us. The is Satan, which means "Enemy". All of the suffering and wrongs in the world (that make us skeptical) are the result of his actions. God is the other, benevolent power. All of the good and wonderful things in life that keep us hopeful are the work of God. He is the creator. Life is a war between these two powers for the destruction or salvation of every person on earth. Satan wants to destroy us, and God wants to protect and nurture is. This spiritual belief provides a framework by which the world and life can be understood, evil can be reconciled, and morality is then possible.
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LuckyR
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by LuckyR »

JBH74 wrote:My failure to manage life on my own as an atheist opened my mind and led me to Christianity. Once I started praying and become religious, I discovered that my religion offered new answers to the perennial philosophical questions such as this one. The reason most people don't understand the existence of evil is that they believe that there is only one supernatural power at work in the world. The truth is, there are two. One of them is determined to destroy each and every one of us. The is Satan, which means "Enemy". All of the suffering and wrongs in the world (that make us skeptical) are the result of his actions. God is the other, benevolent power. All of the good and wonderful things in life that keep us hopeful are the work of God. He is the creator. Life is a war between these two powers for the destruction or salvation of every person on earth. Satan wants to destroy us, and God wants to protect and nurture is. This spiritual belief provides a framework by which the world and life can be understood, evil can be reconciled, and morality is then possible.
I am happy to hear that you found a belief system that had a practical benefit for you.

A couple of things: First, a huge number of folks don't suffer from what bothered you when you were an atheist, and they don't "need" religion to fill that role. Second, if someone were to have a problem similar to your's and sought advice from a professional in behavioral or emotional crises, the advice might take the form of a Mental exercise or "trick" such as: "imagine that there are two forces in the universe, one evil and one good. OK now imagine that the force for good does this and that, therefore blah, blah, blah..." Thus it is not required to actually believe in a god to reap the benefits of you personal view of how the universe works, which as it happens includes a god.
"As usual... it depends."
Fooloso4
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Fooloso4 »

LuckyR:
Second, if someone were to have a problem similar to your's and sought advice from a professional in behavioral or emotional crises, the advice might take the form of a Mental exercise or "trick" such as: "imagine that there are two forces in the universe, one evil and one good. OK now imagine that the force for good does this and that, therefore blah, blah, blah..." Thus it is not required to actually believe in a god to reap the benefits of you personal view of how the universe works, which as it happens includes a god.
I think the real trick, at least for some, is not simply to imagine it but to believe that it is not something imagined but something real. If one is aware that he only imagines a force of evil then it loses the power one imagines it holds over him. If one is aware that he only imagines that there is a force of good that can come to his rescue then it too loses the power he imagines it holds for him.
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JBH74
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by JBH74 »

Exactly the point I was going to make. You can't fool yourself. In your soul you know the truth, so it won't work if you don't genuinely believe it. And by the way the reason this irrational belief does work is because there really is a power out there helping us. Also, Most people need God because Satan will lead them down the wrong path if they don't have divine help.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Fooloso4 »

JBH74:
Exactly the point I was going to make. You can't fool yourself. In your soul you know the truth, so it won't work if you don't genuinely believe it. And by the way the reason this irrational belief does work is because there really is a power out there helping us. Also, Most people need God because Satan will lead them down the wrong path if they don't have divine help.
This is not the point I was trying to make. We can and do fool ourselves. What I said was:
I think the real trick, at least for some, is not simply to imagine it but to believe that it is not something imagined but something real.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belindi »

Fooloso4 wrote:LuckyR:
Second, if someone were to have a problem similar to your's and sought advice from a professional in behavioral or emotional crises, the advice might take the form of a Mental exercise or "trick" such as: "imagine that there are two forces in the universe, one evil and one good. OK now imagine that the force for good does this and that, therefore blah, blah, blah..." Thus it is not required to actually believe in a god to reap the benefits of you personal view of how the universe works, which as it happens includes a god.
I think the real trick, at least for some, is not simply to imagine it but to believe that it is not something imagined but something real. If one is aware that he only imagines a force of evil then it loses the power one imagines it holds over him. If one is aware that he only imagines that there is a force of good that can come to his rescue then it too loses the power he imagines it holds for him.
Is it dangerous for our sense of reality to escape from it from time to time in a book, or a Shakespeare comedy? Probably not. There is a difference between temporary suspension of disbelief, and signing up to the edict of some religion.

It's a good story of the two forces in the Universe, one good and one bad . It's a good story for inspiring us to decide upon what is good and what bad, and for inspiring us with courage. The danger in the story is believing that all will be good in the end whatever we do. Fatalism is not good.
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LuckyR
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by LuckyR »

JBH74 wrote:Exactly the point I was going to make. You can't fool yourself. In your soul you know the truth, so it won't work if you don't genuinely believe it. And by the way the reason this irrational belief does work is because there really is a power out there helping us. Also, Most people need God because Satan will lead them down the wrong path if they don't have divine help.
Of course post# 2090 answers itself. In addition, perhaps you missed (intentionally?) my point that despite your unsubstantiated protestations, folks can and do reap the benefits of therapy each and every day, thus why professionals in this area use these sorts of techniques.

As a nit to be picked, please define your use of the red "really".
"As usual... it depends."
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captain_crunk wrote:
Bk2Kant wrote:My idea of what God is does not feed into this apparent contradiction. I think of God as the creater I think God developed us, gave us free will, and left us to our own ruin or prosperity. No need to think God is all good because God is all powerful (or at least more powerful than us...presumably)
Yeah I'm pretty much in agreement with you on this one. Well put. Although I personally do believe God is all good, I'm with you all the way in terms of free will. 8)
How does free will answer the problem of evil? If God is all-knowing, then presumably he knew what you would choose ahead of time. Thus, if God knew for example, that Hitler would kill millions of people in death camps, then by allowing Hitler to be created with a free will to do that, makes God responsible. If I create a robot knowing that the robot would probably kill people, then I'd be responsible. Saying that God gave us free will, and that God created us, then God is responsible for the evil. It doesn't matter if you have free will or not.
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Re: Re:

Post by LuckyR »

Sam26 wrote:
captain_crunk wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Yeah I'm pretty much in agreement with you on this one. Well put. Although I personally do believe God is all good, I'm with you all the way in terms of free will. 8)
How does free will answer the problem of evil? If God is all-knowing, then presumably he knew what you would choose ahead of time. Thus, if God knew for example, that Hitler would kill millions of people in death camps, then by allowing Hitler to be created with a free will to do that, makes God responsible. If I create a robot knowing that the robot would probably kill people, then I'd be responsible. Saying that God gave us free will, and that God created us, then God is responsible for the evil. It doesn't matter if you have free will or not.
Wow, where to start? If outcomes are able to be known ahead of time, by an omniscient god for example, then that is the definition of predetermination. So free will evaporates in a puff of smoke.

So which is more likely : free will or a omniscient god? I vote for free will. Omniscience (and omnipotence, for that matter) are somewhere between illogical and impossible.
"As usual... it depends."
Belindi
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belindi »

Yeah I'm pretty much in agreement with you on this one. Well put. Although I personally do believe God is all good, I'm with you all the way in terms of free will. 8)
(Sorry that I cannot make out who wrote this)

That God is all good is how we all define God and so adds nothing to how we should live good lives.

The practical question about how we should live good lives and thus please/obey God is that we take responsibility for our behaviour including what we think and what we say, and not expect God to step in and sort us all out when we are stupid.

If anybody decides to live their lives in the trust and belief that God will make all things good again no matter what we do, we have made the decision to relinquish responsibility. It is even less responsible to accept the doctrines of a religious sect without fore -thought or reservation.
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Re: Re:

Post by Sam26 »

LuckyR wrote:
Sam26 wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

How does free will answer the problem of evil? If God is all-knowing, then presumably he knew what you would choose ahead of time. Thus, if God knew for example, that Hitler would kill millions of people in death camps, then by allowing Hitler to be created with a free will to do that, makes God responsible. If I create a robot knowing that the robot would probably kill people, then I'd be responsible. Saying that God gave us free will, and that God created us, then God is responsible for the evil. It doesn't matter if you have free will or not.
Wow, where to start? If outcomes are able to be known ahead of time, by an omniscient god for example, then that is the definition of predetermination. So free will evaporates in a puff of smoke.

So which is more likely : free will or a omniscient god? I vote for free will. Omniscience (and omnipotence, for that matter) are somewhere between illogical and impossible.
It doesn't follow that if a being is all-knowing, including having knowledge of the future, that that in itself makes things predetermined. I have heard this argument before, but I don't see how the conclusion follows. I know for example that the sun will rise tomorrow, but my knowing it doesn't cause it to happen, i.e., it's not determined by my having the knowledge of the sun's rising. There are many things that we know will happen in the future, but my knowing it doesn't lead me to believe that my knowledge of it will some how make it predetermined. The same is true of an all-knowing being. Just because that being knows that x,y, and z will happen in the future, that in itself doesn't cause x,y, and z to happen. If knowledge of the future causes a deterministic outcome, then one would have to show that that knowledge has a causal connection to the event or events in question.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belindi »

It doesn't follow that if a being is all-knowing, including having knowledge of the future, that that in itself makes things predetermined.
It makes things predetermined if the Being is also all-powerful to do what His will says will be done

-- Updated June 28th, 2017, 5:37 am to add the following --
It doesn't follow that if a being is all-knowing, including having knowledge of the future, that that in itself makes things predetermined.
It makes things predetermined if the Being is also all-powerful to do what His will says will be done

-- Updated June 28th, 2017, 5:37 am to add the following --
It doesn't follow that if a being is all-knowing, including having knowledge of the future, that that in itself makes things predetermined.
It makes things predetermined if the Being is also all-powerful to do what His will says will be done
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Sam26 »

Belindi wrote:
It doesn't follow that if a being is all-knowing, including having knowledge of the future, that that in itself makes things predetermined.
It makes things predetermined if the Being is also all-powerful to do what His will says will be done

-- Updated June 28th, 2017, 5:37 am to add the following --
It doesn't follow that if a being is all-knowing, including having knowledge of the future, that that in itself makes things predetermined.
It makes things predetermined if the Being is also all-powerful to do what His will says will be done

-- Updated June 28th, 2017, 5:37 am to add the following --
It doesn't follow that if a being is all-knowing, including having knowledge of the future, that that in itself makes things predetermined.
It makes things predetermined if the Being is also all-powerful to do what His will says will be done
Wrong! Only if the being uses his power to cause the outcome to happen. The question isn't "Does the being have the power to make X happen." The question is, "Does God's knowing future events, cause the event to happen?"
Belindi
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belindi »

Sam26 wrote:
Wrong! Only if the being uses his power to cause the outcome to happen. The question isn't "Does the being have the power to make X happen." The question is, "Does God's knowing future events, cause the event to happen?"
No. God's knowing future events is not a cause of what happens. God's A. knowing future events and God's B. absolute agency to cause the future are both together effects of God.

If either A. or B . is absent it's not God.
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Sam26
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Sam26 »

Belindi wrote:Sam26 wrote:
Wrong! Only if the being uses his power to cause the outcome to happen. The question isn't "Does the being have the power to make X happen." The question is, "Does God's knowing future events, cause the event to happen?"
No. God's knowing future events is not a cause of what happens. God's A. knowing future events and God's B. absolute agency to cause the future are both together effects of God.

If either A. or B . is absent it's not God.
I'm not sure what you mean by "absolute agency," but the way some theologians and philosophers have thought of this, is that if God knows X is going to happen at T1, then necessarily X will happen at T1. If X is necessarily going to happen, then it seems to be a deterministic event. But I don't agree with this, as per my other posts, viz., that my knowledge that an event will happen at T1 doesn't cause the event to happen. You seem to be saying, if I correctly understand you, that God's omniscience coupled with his "absolute agency" causes a deterministic outcome.
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