If there is a God, why is there evil?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Ranvier
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Ranvier »

Steve3007

Not at all Steve, I enjoy your sound logic

Socrateaze

Come on, you can't have it both ways... Either refer to God as Energy of consciousness or a "Guy in the clouds". We are part of the consciousness (energy) and have a free will to choose our own evil. Intervention of any kind would violate our free will... and the laws of physics :)
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Socrateaze
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Socrateaze »

Steve3007 wrote:If that is the general gist of it, then I think Mr Hiett's point can be summarized like this:

In a field, weeds and crops grow together in such a way that it's difficult for the farmer to pull up a weed without also pulling up a crop. So he or she lets them all grow and, when it comes time for harvest, pulls them all up and puts them all in the barn. Then he can much more easily get rid of the weeds.

Translaton of the metaphor:

Weed = evil act
Crop = good act
Farmer = God
Harvest = death
Barn = the place we all go after we're dead

A possible objection that someone might come up with:

Farmers are not omnipotent. God is. So even though a farmer might find it difficult to pull up the weeds without accidentally pulling up the crops, God should have no trouble.

A possible objection to that objection:

God created a universe which is not chaotic - which follows universal laws. Given that He did that, He also accepted that there are complex webs of cause and effect in that universe. The evil acts of someone like Hitler (Godwin's Law alert) are part of that web. God does not want to destroy the order of the universe by intervening to stop specific evil acts and therefore create inconsistencies in the web, leading to a chaotic universe. i.e. Hitler exists as a direct result of the laws of physics and the order in the universe.

(Sorry Ranvier, I talked over you there. I was intending this to be a continuation of my previous post.)
Although I am an atheist/agnostic, I do have to say that even god would have to wait for people to live their lives and make their decisions. Tears and wheat, perhaps look the same ... and perhaps this means wheat can get tainted along with the tears, so they will need time to recover and regain a proper perspective, before making the "right" choice. If "god" were to judge them at the time they became corrupted, he would have to condemn the wheat as well, since they "look" like the tears. Hence, humanity have to recover from the infection of evil - those that do not eventually grow into hardened tears and remain that way.

Perhaps tears are people that never change, despite god's opportunities that he provide for them to do so. Whereas wheat, (that looks the same), can change over time and become something to be eaten/useful/productive. I think the parable is sound in that, but that still, admittedly, does not explain why an omniscient god could not know to remove the tears that would be causing all our headaches.

Perhaps a father is a tear and a son is a wheat. So to condemn the tears, would be to condemn all generations and people sometimes differ from their ancestors.

-- Updated August 27th, 2017, 8:54 am to add the following --
Ranvier wrote:Steve3007

Not at all Steve, I enjoy your sound logic

Socrateaze

Come on, you can't have it both ways... Either refer to God as Energy of consciousness or a "Guy in the clouds". We are part of the consciousness (energy) and have a free will to choose our own evil. Intervention of any kind would violate our free will... and the laws of physics :)
Nonsense,

We're interfering with each other now and we're not violating the laws of physics. :wink:

Since I am agnostic, I put my feelers out ... either something works, or it doesn't.
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Ranvier
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Ranvier »

Socrateaze

Fair enough

Think of God (energy) as a "sphere of consciousness" that became a flat surface of "creation" of our 3D space in our perception. Sphere has no "time" but our consciousness "chose" to exist on the "sheet of experience" of "time" to understand the "sphere".
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Socrateaze
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Socrateaze »

Ranvier wrote:Socrateaze

Fair enough

Think of God (energy) as a "sphere of consciousness" that became a flat surface of "creation" of our 3D space in our perception. Sphere has no "time" but our consciousness "chose" to exist on the "sheet of experience" of "time" to understand the "sphere".
And our consciousness buggers off when we sleep at night to a place totally bent out of shape ... AND ... it still is active in our minds while we are awake. AND if it is true that by looking at the universe, we create it, I wonder what it looks like where our eyes do not see.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Ranvier »

Ahh, use your imagination. You can dream up anything you want :)

The good news is... a fact actually... we do already exist, so there is no fear but the fear of itself. This reality is nothing but a bad dream... sometimes can be great though, smile.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Socrateaze »

Ranvier wrote:Ahh, use your imagination. You can dream up anything you want :)

The good news is... a fact actually... we do already exist, so there is no fear but the fear of itself. This reality is nothing but a bad dream... sometimes can be great though, smile.
So who's dreaming up all the evil? I find that when I dream, I can't read. Once tried to work my mobile in my dream and couldn't make heads or tails of it. Is that not the same with what is happening when we try to talk about the universe. I feel a bit dyslexic when I look at the numbers on the dial. Maybe we're in a dream now, looking at the universe and all this talk of good and evil is just blurry numbers on a phone we don't understand. :idea:
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

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Socrateaze, do you think with words and in sentences? Or is there no conversation in words in your mind. Do people talk in your dreams, or are they conversing just by a general understanding that this person said this concept, and that person said that?

And why do you drink wine or blood, as per your picture, when your name says "teas"? Socra Tea in my language means "sugar(ed) tea".
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Ranvier »

Socratease

The actual dreams that we experience in this reality is a "disconnect" from the actual consciousness as we move through "time". But this reality is a different type of dream.

If one really wants to find out, who one truly is, it's to play this most realistic "game" of our existence, where one can do anything one wants without limits. Question becomes: "what will one do"?

------

-1-

I can't get enough of your humor...
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Socrateaze
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

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-1- wrote:Socrateaze, do you think with words and in sentences? Or is there no conversation in words in your mind. Do people talk in your dreams, or are they conversing just by a general understanding that this person said this concept, and that person said that?

And why do you drink wine or blood, as per your picture, when your name says "teas"? Socra Tea in my language means "sugar(ed) tea".
Now you're "teazing" me; I like my tea, particularly fond of earl grey. I am not averse to drinking blood and you have a picture of a cat........

People speak the bear minimum in dreams and mostly we dream in symbols. And how does this relate to evil - we're off topic. I say people dream up good and evil as if they are asleep.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by -1- »

The questions were actually serious... There are two types of humans, one type has a constant dialogue going on in their conscious, and they can only shut it up by meditating. The other kind never thinks in language, and can't meditate.

There have been thinkers who claimed that intelligence and thought are language- and therefore culture dependent. They are convinced that people who don't know any language don't know how to think and reason. This is false, in the case of perhaps everybody (the theory has not been tested) but it is for sure false for those who never need language to think.
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Steve3007
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Steve3007 »

There are two types of humans, one type has a constant dialogue going on in their conscious, and they can only shut it up by meditating. The other kind never thinks in language, and can't meditate.
If this is true, then perhaps the second kind are actually constantly in the state of mind that the first kind seek to achieve by meditating. One hand clapping, 24/7. If so, I suspect that the second kind are happier.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Socrateaze »

Ranvier wrote:Socratease

The actual dreams that we experience in this reality is a "disconnect" from the actual consciousness as we move through "time". But this reality is a different type of dream.

If one really wants to find out, who one truly is, it's to play this most realistic "game" of our existence, where one can do anything one wants without limits. Question becomes: "what will one do"?

------

-1-

I can't get enough of your humor...
Isn't it Bruce Lee who said a fight is like a game, but only serious? Doesn't the song of "Row, row, row your boat" say "life is but a dream?" I say we dream up much, which isn't true. And for as long as we are dyslexic in this reality we will never be able to "work our mobile." What is the most you ever have accomplished with an electronic device in your dream - just about as much as we get from talking about god, good and evil, because it doesn't exist.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by -1- »

Socrateaze, the question was off-topic.

Evil: I already had my say in this topic. I'll repeat it for your sake:

1. Assumed that god is infinitely good.
2. Assumed that god is infinitely powerful.
3. Therefore evil and suffering ought not to be present in this world.
4. Therefore something has to give:
4.1. Maybe god is not infinitely good.
4.2. Maybe god is not infinitely powerful.
4.3. Maybe there is no evil and suffering in this world; it just seem so to us.
4.4. God does not exist in the first place

I find 4.4. most plausible,and 4.3. the least acceptable.

-- Updated 2017 August 27th, 9:48 am to add the following --
Steve3007 wrote:
There are two types of humans, one type has a constant dialogue going on in their conscious, and they can only shut it up by meditating. The other kind never thinks in language, and can't meditate.
If this is true, then perhaps the second kind are actually constantly in the state of mind that the first kind seek to achieve by meditating. One hand clapping, 24/7. If so, I suspect that the second kind are happier.
Does a tree make a sound when it falls in the forest?

Can a person measure up whether he is happier than the next person?

And I am sure the meditation only feels happy because it's relaxing. If someone keeps on relaxing all the time, then to him happiness will be excitement and action.

Also, those who don't think in words, still constantly think. They can't shut the thought process down. Only when they are asleep and dream are they at rest from thinking.

-- Updated 2017 August 27th, 9:52 am to add the following --
Socrateaze wrote:What is the most you ever have accomplished with an electronic device in your dream?
I zapped myself once with my electric blanket when I had a wet dream.
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Steve3007
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Steve3007 »

I think a lot of religious people take the view that 4.3 is a necessary consequence of 4.4.

If 4.2 is true, then the only power that God needs to lack in order for evil to exist is the power to dispense with the rules of logic and make the world chaotic and inconsistent. If the universe has to be logically consistent then things that we regard as bad have to happen.

If 4.1 is true but 4.2 is false, then I guess God prefers Order to the absence of evil. Maybe He's Swiss.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Ranvier »

Steve3007 wrote: If this is true, then perhaps the second kind are actually constantly in the state of mind that the first kind seek to achieve by meditating. One hand clapping, 24/7. If so, I suspect that the second kind are happier.
Lol, good stuff Steve...

-1-

1. Assumed that god is infinitely good.
2. Assumed that god is infinitely powerful.
3. Therefore evil and suffering ought not to be present in this world.
4. Therefore something has to give:
4.1. Maybe god is not infinitely good.
4.2. Maybe god is not infinitely powerful.
4.3. Maybe there is no evil and suffering in this world; it just seem so to us.
4.4. God does not exist in the first place

Purge such thoughts... it's not taking you any place good

God is good because we're here. Unless one wishes that one was never born... that would be an entirely different topic.
"Evil" is only evil in our selfish perception of our physical reality. If you ask bacteria or snail... well you won't get any answer.
Without "evil" there wouldn't be any evolution of life.

We are here just to learn :)
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