If there is a God, why is there evil?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Post Reply
User avatar
Diploid
Posts: 31
Joined: June 11th, 2015, 7:48 am

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Diploid »

Transmigration - metempsychosis - called 'gilgul' in Jewish mysticism (Kabbala) first appeared in the Sefer ha Bahir in 1180 A.D. Except for the passage attributed to Jesus in John 3:3, which is about a spiritual birth ("...Spirit gives birth to spirit"), there is no real doctrine of either reincarnation or rebirth in the New or Old Testaments. That certain Church fathers such as Origen, who was considered heretical later on, spoke of transmigration, and the doctrine thrown out of Christianity at the Council of Chalcedon in 553 A.D. (because it afforded too much time for the process of salvation), it has never had a real place in Christianity proper, and only in mystical Jewish circles. Jesus did not teach this for the good reason that the essence of Man (called the Inner Man by Paul) is of a spiritual nature, not a psychic nature. It is a 'psychic' understanding of man (as soul or psyche, not spirit) that understands man to be a discreet entity capable of transmigrating.

Meditation in a Biblical sense means a dwelling upon scriptural words. Contemplation of a wordless, imageless apprehension of God's immediate Presence, was never layed out systematicaly as it was in say, Indian religion. In Christianity, the Ultimate state is only partly available to us (partially realized eschatology it is called) unless we are mystics. John's Gospel, and moreso, Thomas' Gospel takes us to an contemplative awareness of God's presence, here and now. This is developed most systematically by the Greek Orthodox Hesychast (Tranquility) monks of Mt. Athos, Greece, who seek to 'find the Place of the Heart' by way of the Jesus Prayer.

It seems evident that there were those who thought John or Jesus to be Elias/Elijah, reborn. The doctrine of transmigration is not taught BY Jesus in the canonical Bible, but the belief system was clearly in place. The Bible as we have it in its canonical form is going to perpetuate the highly suspect agenda of Constantine, who worshipped Sol Invictus - the Mithraic god of the Roman soldiers, and who was forced to make a deathbed conversion. The Bible in this sense is thoroughly the propaganda device of the power-wielding priesthood who constructed it under Constantine. This is not to say that it isn't a vehicle for spiritual Truth, but that the existent Bible has had great spiritual treasure excised from it.

Transmigration is a notion based on experiences that are far older than Judaism. The Middle East had numerous traditions that held to transmigration, especially Plato's philosophy. The Platonic and Neoplatonic elements of Catholicism are unmistakable even if the transmigration is only hinted at. Everything in the Bible is not plain. Nowhere does it speak of Jesus' Bar Mitzvah, but He doubtlessly had one if He truly was a son of Israel, if not the Jewish Messiah. His visit at age 12 to the Temple was not His Bar Mitzvah. It is implied by the whole gestalt of Jewish life. That Jesus may have been married isn't mentioned anywhere and the lone wandering Holy Man image was perpetuated. Unmarried Jewish men were not allowed to speak publically in the Temple - they were not 'complete' men til their sexual nature was lawfully manifest - yet Jesus was said to have spoken in the Temple often in the NT. So it is entirely possible that Jesus was married. Mary called Magdalene most likely (but no, the most important disciple doesn't get to be called an Apostle, and gets called a whore until the 1960's - because she's a woman!)

I do not understand why many or most professing Christians blink their eyes at the source of the canonical Bible. The attitude which holds that GOD formed the canon is entirely naive. Any seeker of Truth has to come to terms with the most profound failures of Bible interpretation, like the fact that Paul was totally wrong about the immanent Apocalypse and the return of Christ. We also have to come to terms with the Nag Hammadi discovery. All those books portray very divergent forms of Christianity. Does one love Truth, or merely tradition?
User avatar
The Beast
Posts: 1403
Joined: July 7th, 2013, 10:32 pm

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by The Beast »

That Jesus did not appear at the Temple seems to imply a view rooted in yet another Docetism. “Christ assumed the psychic flesh of mankind as heirs to Adam” well… maybe Lambert will exhort us about the Tree of Knowledge. “The Word was made flesh” in the Gospel of John. Was not Pantaenus who said: “If you want this faith, this first thing you must receive is the knowledge of the Father”? The rest seems to be a battle of the image of love as the true Christ… a Virgin and her Child.
Ruskin
Posts: 1573
Joined: March 30th, 2014, 2:18 pm

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Ruskin »

Diploid wrote: We also have to come to terms with the Nag Hammadi discovery. All those books portray very divergent forms of Christianity. Does one love Truth, or merely tradition?
They all centre on Jesus his death by crucifixion and then his resurrection at least so we can assume all these divergent forms of Christianity were based on something that actually happened. Over the first couple of hundred years there were numerous Christian communities in different parts of the Roman Empire that developed and elaborated upon their own gospels to expand on their own beliefs. The form of Christianity that eventually became the state religion of Rome focussed on the earliest three gospels from the 1st century which roughly correlate with each other with some differences here and there. The gospel of John was written in the early 2nd century and is somewhat different from the other three but this more a spiritually inspired story about who Jesus was less a historical account.
User avatar
Jucalion
New Trial Member
Posts: 12
Joined: June 15th, 2015, 11:55 am

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Jucalion »

Ruskin: - Feel free to show me the non-Christian/Biblical historical account of Jesus

Book 20, Chapter 9 of the Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus Flavius. (c. 94 C.E.)

"Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned:"

The Roman historian Tacitus in The Annals, Book 15. (c.110 C.E.)

"Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus."

The Roman historian Seutonius, in Book VI of De Vitae Caesarum - The Life of Nero (c. 121 C.E.)

"Punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition."

There is another reference in Book 18 of the Antiquities, a whole paragraph, but the authenticity of this passage is heavily disputed. I have good grounds for believing it was a Christian interpolation placed between 250 and 325 C.E.

The Syriac version of this passage reads... "at this time there was wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."

Origin of Alexandria, a Church Father who died approx 250 C.E. never mentioned this passage in any of his works, despite repeatedly and directly referencing the much shorter statement in Book 20. (Three times in, "Against Celsus", and once in, "The Treatise on Matthew".) Origen uses the statement to support his account of why Jerusalem fell, "on account, as Josephus says, of the stoning of James the Just, the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ". (Against Celsus - Circa 248 C.E)

The first independent mention of the paragraph in Book 18 is made by the Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea, approx 321 C.E. not long before the council of Nicea and the formal legalisation of Christianity in Rome. The backing of the Roman Emperor Constantine would have made it much easier to insert such a blatant Christian interpolation into such an important historical work, which would explain why Origen never used it. :wink:

Hope this helps.
User avatar
Diploid
Posts: 31
Joined: June 11th, 2015, 7:48 am

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Diploid »

Ruskin wrote:
Diploid wrote: We also have to come to terms with the Nag Hammadi discovery. All those books portray very divergent forms of Christianity. Does one love Truth, or merely tradition?
They all centre on Jesus his death by crucifixion and then his resurrection at least so we can assume all these divergent forms of Christianity were based on something that actually happened. Over the first couple of hundred years there were numerous Christian communities in different parts of the Roman Empire that developed and elaborated upon their own gospels to expand on their own beliefs. The form of Christianity that eventually became the state religion of Rome focussed on the earliest three gospels from the 1st century which roughly correlate with each other with some differences here and there. The gospel of John was written in the early 2nd century and is somewhat different from the other three but this more a spiritually inspired story about who Jesus was less a historical account.
By the time Emperor Constantine decided to use Christianity instead of Mithraism as a banner around which the Roman Empire could continue, he was on his deathbed, and had murdered several of his family members who threatened his political agenda. Such was the character of the man who employed Christian myths instead of Pagan myths. Myths are very powerful structures in the psyche. They form a sort of psychic infrastructure around which cultures develop. The core myths are finite, and they are universal, but they take on the idiosyncratic 'clothing' of each culture, but it takes an individual of a certain typology to see the 'invariant features' of the core myths without being confused by the differences. Therefore, Dismemberment-Death-Resurrection must be found within the various myths in order to glean a universal, global perspective.

The Crucifixion of Iesous is not unique to this figure. On the cover of Freke & Gandy's The Jesus Mysteries, there is an illustration of a 'gem' with the illustration of a crucifixion that predates Iesous. Before that there is the myth of Prometheus, an earlier mythic savior who stole Fire from the gods and gave it to humankind out of compassion. For this, he was bound to a rock on a mountaintop where a bird of prey ate his liver (the one who lives, the organ of the soul back then and there), which grew back every night. This torment recurred until Prometheus was himself 'saved' by Heracles (Hercules). Earlier still was Osirus in Egypt, who was killed, dismembered, and scattered all around the world. He was gathered by his wife Isis - all but his phallus - which was replaced by the great god Thoth by a magickal phallus with which the resurrected Osirus gave Isis their son Horus. These three form the original basis of the holy family, later made into Yosef, Miriam and Iesous (Y'shua).

Now the among the droves of literalist Christians, which made up the multitudes at the time of Constantine, were Christians who were well aware of the myths of antiquity. Included among those Christians were the Gnostic Christians, who understood the metaphors and Hebrew midrash, and who asked themselves 'what do these stories really mean?' Among those philosophers, was, for example, Philo of Alexandria who wrote tons of stuff about the 'Logos,' the Word of God. The Logos was God's immanence, as opposed to God's incomprehensible transcendence. Philo lived contemporaneously with Iesous (if Iesous was a historical figure). In Egypt, the Logos was Thoth - the Heart and Tongue of Ra (God). The writer of the Gospel of John began his book with the Prologue (note the Logos root) in which he said "In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God..." In English, this Logos in Greek was translated as 'Word' which is one of its meanings. The Neo-Platonists philosophers of the time saw all this as no different from their own philosophy where their transcendent One emanates Nous (Mind/Logos), which emanates the World Soul (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

Meanwhile, the ignorant multitudes did not understand philosophy, or mythology, or the new formulation of creeds that became theology. They were very concrete-minded, sense-dominated people for whom it was necessary to write public relations stories which come down to us as the gospels, and which included the 'tomb narratives,' in which Resurrection becomes taught as a historical physical event. The gospels came later than the earliest Christian writings attributed to Paul, who NEVER taught about a resusitated corpse. Paul taught about a spiritual Mystery - Resurrection and the Resurrection Body. The Gnostics had their own internalized understanding of this Mystery - a psychospiritual reality, much like the Resurrection of ancient Egypt when one's Ba (soul) and Ka (spirit) come together after death of the body to form the Akh.

Belief (the psychic) in a resurrection of the body (physical) is what the Gnostics understood to be the superstitious, concrete understanding of the Psychic Christians, as opposed to their Self-Realization theology. The Gnostics have their parallels among all the esoteric (inner) members of most religions, not the exoteric (outer) multitudes who merely 'believe' that believing in a myth AS history, is salvific. The problem is that the Gnostic and otherwise esoteric 'Pneumatic' (spiritual) Christians were eventually stamped out, their books burned, and any sympathizers who remained (like the Cathars, Bougamils, Albigensians, etc.) were set upon by crusades, and the 'Holy Inquisition.' The Gnostics thoughts that Psychic Christians could become Pneumatic Christians, but there were clearly demarcations of typology, and of metaphysical destination (just as there are in Hindu and Buddhist metaphysics: various heavens).
User avatar
The Beast
Posts: 1403
Joined: July 7th, 2013, 10:32 pm

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by The Beast »

In Ezequiel and his vision of the sins of Jerusalem we have at the north gate of the Temple of Yahweh the women that were weeping for Tammuz and in the inner court the men that were worshipping the sun. In the psalms of Solomon (1st Century) “the Dragon punishes the Maccabees and installs the rightful heirs of the Davidic covenant. Many consider that the Dragon is Pompey. However, who are the rightful heirs? But, it was Gaius Sosius from the priestly cast of Rome with the Syrian cavalry and Cilician troops who entered Jerusalem and deposed the Maccabees. Or maybe the Dragon is not Pompey but Antony. In chapter 5 Josephus identifies Petrea as the birthplace of Antipater the father of Herod the Great and it was to Petrea where Herod the Great went before going to Rome to be declared King of the Jews. Perhaps, idumean was used by Jews to denote non Jews. Who is this former slave Antipater? It is logical that he is from a Greek speaking Macedonian aristocracy confined to Syria and eastern Cilicia... a Cilician? The first known mention of the mysteries of Mithras is by the Cilician Pirates. It was known that the Cilician Pirates were very active at Alexandria where it is possible that the cult of Mithras flourished. It is a fact that there was a Temple to Mithras at the Caesarea Maritima in Judaea. Of course, we could assume that the revolt of the Maccabees was due to the strange rituals performed in the Temple where pigs were being sacrificed as Antipater ruled with his sons and Hyrcarnus (the High Priest) was a peaceful old man. In that case it was Pompey the dragon that defeated the Cilician pirates in the Mediterranean Sea but had nothing to do with Mattathias the Maccabee being killed in 37 BCE. Herod then appointed the High Priests… Maybe the Dragon is Jesus.
Ruskin
Posts: 1573
Joined: March 30th, 2014, 2:18 pm

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Ruskin »

Diploid wrote:
By the time Emperor Constantine decided to use Christianity instead of Mithraism as a banner around which the Roman Empire could continue, he was on his deathbed, and had murdered several of his family members who threatened his political agenda. Such was the character of the man who employed Christian myths instead of Pagan myths.
The founder of Christianity was Jesus not Constantine. In any case he wasn't officially a Christian until his baptism which he held off just before his deathbed. Of course just having your head dunked into some water without any genuine repentance as a bet hedger won't really do anything so he's probably still in hell, not that's for me to say what happens to anyone after they die that's really more for God to know.

Myths are very powerful structures in the psyche. They form a sort of psychic infrastructure around which cultures develop.
Absolutely and the Christian story is a myth, just one that happens to be true as J.R.R Tolkien told C.S Lewis when he expressed similar views to yourself. There were plenty of very intelligent and learned people who were Christians you, all the Apollo Astronauts for example, some very clever people best not to think a Christian faith is for the simple minded or gullible.


Therefore, Dismemberment-Death-Resurrection must be found within the various myths in order to glean a universal, global perspective.
They never involved an actual historical man returning from the dead nor did they ever leave an empty tomb it's best not to confuse these ancient myths that are tied to the seasons with Christ they are not the same thing remotely at all. Many of the resurrection god myths involved the dismemberment and reconstruction of the body as a metaphor for the soul but Jesus was buried fully physically intact in his tomb with a boulder placed at the entrance so there isn't a comparison to be made between Jesus and Osirus who was murdered by his brother dismembered and thrown into a river. Many of these Christian to pagan deity comparisons were made in the 19th century and anti-semitism was a motivation as it took Jesus away from his Jewish roots by trying to make him into a kind of symbolic pagan resurrectional deity. Also some of the top Nazi's viewed Christ as being originally an Aryan pagan god who was corrupted by some Jewish cult to fit as this fitted with their Germanic racial ideology. So you do have to look a little more deeply into the motivations behind these pagan god to Christian Christ comparisons they're not necessarily accurate or wholesome. The resurrection is an incredible and out of the ordinary thing to happen but then a revelation from God would have to be if you think about it. If this isn't convince you nothing will really. If you want to say it didn't happen you will still have to explain exactly what did you don't necessarily get to dismiss Christ that easily some effort has to be made.

The Crucifixion of Iesous is not unique to this figure. On the cover of Freke & Gandy's The Jesus Mysteries
I have read that book it isn't really on the high end of scholarship (they deny Jesus ever existed at all this is conspiracy theory nuttery even Dawkins accepts his physical Earthly existence) there are better books you can read, I would particularly recommend some C.S Lewis for you. You can start with Mere Christianity if all these different brands of Christian faith are a concern for you. Of course he was also well aware of pagan myths of dying and rising gods but he saw this as God preparing the world for the real thing which is another way of seeing it.

*insert a load of text about pagan gods that are supposed to be like Jesus*
That's been covered and I know all about them so moving on.


Belief (the psychic) in a resurrection of the body (physical) is what the Gnostics understood to be the superstitious, concrete understanding of the Psychic Christians, as opposed to their Self-Realization theology. The Gnostics have their parallels among all the esoteric (inner) members of most religions, not the exoteric (outer) multitudes who merely 'believe' that believing in a myth AS history, is salvific.
I would encourage understanding at least some of the Bible as parable and symbol including the New Testament but to be clear Jesus was a real man, he was executed under Pilate, there was an empty tomb (which women discovered had it been pure fiction they would have had men discover this as they would have been viewed as more reliable eyewitnesses at the time) and people did experience the risen Christ. When Saint Paul was writing 20 years after the event he claimed there were literally hundreds of people living in his community who experienced the risen Christ first hand. Someone would have called him out on this if no-one had experienced this event people weren't stupid just because they happened to live a couple of thousand years ago. Also no-one would have historically experienced the resurrection of Osiris who was a purely fictional god who never actually existed that no-one ever met. We ultimately need a God who will manifest himself in reality not just in symbolic parables inspired by the Holy Spirit.



The problem is that the Gnostic and otherwise esoteric 'Pneumatic' (spiritual) Christians were eventually stamped out, their books burned, and any sympathizers who remained (like the Cathars, Bougamils, Albigensians, etc.) were set upon by crusades, and the 'Holy Inquisition.' The Gnostics thoughts that Psychic Christians could become Pneumatic Christians, but there were clearly demarcations of typology, and of metaphysical destination (just as there are in Hindu and Buddhist metaphysics: various heavens).
The Gnostics believed that salvation was through attaining knowledge of God not just through claiming to have faith in God or follow a religion. Also this knowledge is something that comes from within you don't need an external authority to do this for you as your relationship with God is direct. Of course the Catholic Church as a human power based structure didn't take too kindly to Gnostics. But the Gnostics did have the right general idea. They believed in reincarnation as well much like the eastern religions do and I agree with this though I get from the Western Esoteric tradition and the Kabbalah. I have read the Nag Hammdi library and there is a section in there in the form of a letter that does confirm that they viewed the resurrection as a historical rather than a metaphorical event. If you go to actual authentic the source material rather that Freke & Gandy's buggery you'll get a better idea of what they were about. One of the the main points that differentiated the Gnostics is that they believed the creator of the universe was Satan or an evil demon called Yaldabaoth and this explains the problem of evil. Personally I think God created the universe and suffering exists as a consequence of life being a certain way to allow freewill so I'm more an esoteric Christian than a Gnostic.
Belinda
Premium Member
Posts: 13818
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belinda »

Ruskin wrote:

A lot more than what I'm about to quote. I abstracted this little bit because it's typical of Ruskin's reasoning.
Many of these Christian to pagan deity comparisons were made in the 19th century and anti-semitism was a motivation as it took Jesus away from his Jewish roots by trying to make him into a kind of symbolic pagan resurrectional deity
Being 19th century does not automatically condemn. That antisemitism was a motivation is unsubstantiated. The facts include that Greek ideas were scattered throughout the Roman empire. Jesus himself may have been influenced by Greek ideas including myths. Ruskin, you seem to not understand that religions are often constituted of a mix of previous religions from a variety of sources. Christianity is a prime example of such a religion. The early promoters of Christianity in Britain, for instance, were wise enough to build their little churches upon pagan holy sites. The pagan story of Christmas is a dearly revered part of the Gospels and long may it continue thus say I :)
Socialist
User avatar
Diploid
Posts: 31
Joined: June 11th, 2015, 7:48 am

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Diploid »

Ruskin wrote:
Diploid wrote:
By the time Emperor Constantine decided to use Christianity instead of Mithraism as a banner around which the Roman Empire could continue, he was on his deathbed, and had murdered several of his family members who threatened his political agenda. Such was the character of the man who employed Christian myths instead of Pagan myths.
The founder of Christianity was Jesus not Constantine. In any case he wasn't officially a Christian until his baptism which he held off just before his deathbed. Of course just having your head dunked into some water without any genuine repentance as a bet hedger won't really do anything so he's probably still in hell, not that's for me to say what happens to anyone after they die that's really more for God to know.

Indeed, but you misunderstood/misread me. It's what Emperor Constantine decided to use as a banner around which the HRE could continue, I didn't state that Christianity was created by Emperor Constantine.
Myths are very powerful structures in the psyche. They form a sort of psychic infrastructure around which cultures develop.
Absolutely and the Christian story is a myth, just one that happens to be true as J.R.R Tolkien told C.S Lewis when he expressed similar views to yourself. There were plenty of very intelligent and learned people who were Christians you, all the Apollo Astronauts for example, some very clever people best not to think a Christian faith is for the simple minded or gullible.
The Gnostic myths are also myth. The difference is that most of the Gnostics recognize the mythical, metaphorical, and metaphysical meanings of scriptural writings without necessarily believing they are historical events. Spiritual stories among he Jews was called midrash. There are many schools of Gnostic thought (Valentinians, Sethians, Ophites, Naasenes, etc.) and pseudo-Gnostic though (like the Gospel of Thomas, or Marcion). The main problem they all dealt with was theodicy, how can there be such evil given that God is good? The Gnostics sometimes had a completely different take on characters like Judas Iscariot (whose last name might simply suggest that he belonged to the 'Sicari,' Jewish assassins), as well as the serpent in Eden, which instead of being evil was sometimes seen as a symbol of wisdom ("..be wise as serpents and innocent as doves" - Matthew 10:16) whereas the humanoid God walking in the garden was the Demiurge who had trapped divine sparks of The Pleroma in bodies of flesh.

Therefore, Dismemberment-Death-Resurrection must be found within the various myths in order to glean a universal, global perspective.
They never involved an actual historical man returning from the dead nor did they ever leave an empty tomb it's best not to confuse these ancient myths that are tied to the seasons with Christ they are not the same thing remotely at all. Many of the resurrection god myths involved the dismemberment and reconstruction of the body as a metaphor for the soul but Jesus was buried fully physically intact in his tomb with a boulder placed at the entrance so there isn't a comparison to be made between Jesus and Osirus who was murdered by his brother dismembered and thrown into a river. Many of these Christian to pagan deity comparisons were made in the 19th century and anti-semitism was a motivation as it took Jesus away from his Jewish roots by trying to make him into a kind of symbolic pagan resurrectional deity. Also some of the top Nazi's viewed Christ as being originally an Aryan pagan god who was corrupted by some Jewish cult to fit as this fitted with their Germanic racial ideology. So you do have to look a little more deeply into the motivations behind these pagan god to Christian Christ comparisons they're not necessarily accurate or wholesome. The resurrection is an incredible and out of the ordinary thing to happen but then a revelation from God would have to be if you think about it. If this isn't convince you nothing will really. If you want to say it didn't happen you will still have to explain exactly what did you don't necessarily get to dismiss Christ that easily some effort has to be made.
I do not adhere to the notion of the Demiurge inasmuch as it was a not-so-veiled doctrine of antisemitism. Marcion the Gnostic wanted to do away with the entire OT. Valentinus' entire creation myth is an alternative mythos far removed from the Hebrew-Babylonian (Gilgamesh epic) sources. Y'shua, AKA Isso, AKA Jesus (Hebrew-Aramaic-Greek) was a real human being, belonging to a Hebrew lineage. Whatever His ontological status is, He is connected to the Old Testament in an integral way, and cannot be legitimately distilled out.

A much greater antisemitic force - Nazism - attempted to do this via Hegelian metaphysics. The theology of the Lutheran Church was targeted to [bracket] the eternal Christ out from a Jewish man - split the existential (human) and ontological (Divine) natures. This of course was only an intermediarry step in the replacement of the cross with the swastika.

The recognition that genuine religious experience can come from within the believer is definately a Gnostic stance, and one that I hold in a defining way. The external institution of Sacramental theology, controlled by a priesthood who claims the power to excommunicate heretics, thereby damning individuals, is as most here agree, nothing more than terror-tactics and tyranny. The movie 'Stigmata' was an overly dramatic version of this threat to Catholicism (in particular) with regard to the Gospel of Thomas. The once-popular 'Celestine Prophesy' was a sort of take-off on this theme as well. The real Demiurge today is not 'the blind god' Samael, but the same false god of the New Testament, ''Mammon," or money. Rudolf Steiner identified Greed with the devil Ahriman. It may be an Aristotelian 'efficient cause' of change in this world, but it is regarded as 'Absolute cause' - as God - when of course it is simple idolatry.
The problem is that the Gnostic and otherwise esoteric 'Pneumatic' (spiritual) Christians were eventually stamped out, their books burned, and any sympathizers who remained (like the Cathars, Bougamils, Albigensians, etc.) were set upon by crusades, and the 'Holy Inquisition.' The Gnostics thoughts that Psychic Christians could become Pneumatic Christians, but there were clearly demarcations of typology, and of metaphysical destination (just as there are in Hindu and Buddhist metaphysics: various heavens).
The Gnostics believed that salvation was through attaining knowledge of God not just through claiming to have faith in God or follow a religion. Also this knowledge is something that comes from within you don't need an external authority to do this for you as your relationship with God is direct. Of course the Catholic Church as a human power based structure didn't take too kindly to Gnostics. But the Gnostics did have the right general idea. They believed in reincarnation as well much like the eastern religions do and I agree with this though I get from the Western Esoteric tradition and the Kabbalah. I have read the Nag Hammdi library and there is a section in there in the form of a letter that does confirm that they viewed the resurrection as a historical rather than a metaphorical event. If you go to actual authentic the source material rather that Freke & Gandy's buggery you'll get a better idea of what they were about. One of the the main points that differentiated the Gnostics is that they believed the creator of the universe was Satan or an evil demon called Yaldabaoth and this explains the problem of evil. Personally I think God created the universe and suffering exists as a consequence of life being a certain way to allow freewill so I'm more an esoteric Christian than a Gnostic.
The first God, of the Lower Countanence, is the Demiurge, the Architect in 'The Matrix' whose face forms of metal 'sqigglies' in the sky before Neo.

The True GOD, the Fullness (the Pleroma), the Reality of which Neo intuits when he flies above the Demiurgic creation, above the clouds of doom into the pure atmosphere and sunlight.

The Demiurge, in Gnosticism, was born of a 'cosmic cataclysm' when the last of 30 Eternal Intelligences (Aeons) in the Pleroma named 'Wisdom,' decided to create Life without the consent of her consort (Aeons were paired, or married). The result was the Demiurge which became equated with the Creator, or with the God of the Old Testament, and who 'entrapped' divine 'sparks' or spirits of the True GOD within human beings. Some humans become aware of this and wish to return to the Pleroma to which they 'KNOW' they belong. This awareness or awakening was agreed upon in the last of the Matrix films when the Architect makes concession for those humans who awaken from the Matrix to do so, join Zion, and live their lives and deaths in Freedom (which includes a spiritually awakened life aimed at transcendence). A great clue in the first Matrix film is a shot of the hovercraft's model number 'Mark IV No. 11.' Check out Mark 4:11 - it is the number one Gnostic message in the New Testament.

A Gnostic reading of Paul, like most Gnostic interpretations does not make the mainstream doctrine of the Vicarious Sacrifice the center of Christian belief - all that language (that my Lady's mother often uses) about 'being cleansed in the blood of the Lamb.' The Vicarious Sacrifice doctrine is that a cruel execution served as the 'rending of profane history' that allowed a specific Divine process to enter the Human condition, available to anyone who believes in the Name of Jesus. My Greek Orthodox friend points out that it is the Resurrection that defines Christianity, not the crucifixion-death. The Resurrection is described as a historical event, but many Gnostics understand, once again, that 'midrash' - Jewish story-telling of spiritual ideas - are NOT to be read as historical, empirical events. Resurrection, in its essence is Christian Mystery.

The Gnostic understanding sees the historical storyline (factual or mythic) to symbolize a continual process of crucifixion of the self - the same notion as 'ego-death', often spoken in Jungian psychology, mysticism, psychedelics or entheogens. For Gnostics there are 3 divisions of spiritual development: the Hylics or Sarkics [sarx=flesh] who are essentially materialists, sensualists and basically living a mammalian existence.

The next division, an intermediary level, are the Psychic Christians who understand scriptures in terms of the Vicarious Sacrifice doctrine, and whose discipline is living by faith and doing good works. Psychics can develop to the next level.

The final division are the Pneumatic [pneuma=spirit] Christians, who comprise the Gnostics. Gnosis, unlike the word 'Episteme' (which refers to knowledge about phenomenon, scientific, empirical knowledge), refers to a form of Knowing that is experiential. More specifically, Spiritual Experience, including but not limited to what we call Entheogenic Experiences (Psychedelic Experiences). It is uncertain whether substances were employed by Gnostics, but there are ancient mosaics that illustrate the Amanita Muscaria mushroom. Gnostic Christianity, widely practiced until Constantine came down on them and destroyed their scriptures, had doctrines that approximate the Self-Realization doctrines of Indian thought. GOD is Present, and His/Her Presence is to be Realized within. This understanding leaves no need for sacraments and the holders of the sacraments, the priests, and by extension, the whole Church. The movie 'Stigmata' was about this. Some Docetic Gnostics maintained that Jesus was not a Human and had only a 'phantom body,' among other things, and this was the main problem that the new Catholic Church condemned. Alternatively, other Gnostics believed that someone else had died in Jesus' place. This, BTW is how Jesus is presented in the Qu'ran.

The Divinity of Jesus (Iesus, Issa, Y'shua) does not have to be compromised by His Humanity, but today as in the past, it is important to fully understand the notion of 'midrash.' Educated Buddhists, for example, understand that the story about lotus blossoms springing up from the baby Buddha's first steps, is mythos, is spiritual 'highlighting' and not historical. The same with stories of the Buddha's Virgin Birth. The Sacrality of Jesus and Buddha are not in any way diminished by an understanding of the mythic overlays. For the best Christian explanation (non-Gnostic but enlightening) is the book 'Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes' by John Shelby Spong. The title 'Son of God' was used throughout the OT for the Divine Right of Kingship -all the OT kings were considered to be Sons of God. Gentiles, unfamiliar with Judaism continue to misunderstand the term as being unique to Jesus, whom they called "King of the Jews" in mockery. Later, the metaphysical overlay that occurred with Trinitarian doctrine (something no 1st century Jew would've known about) changed Matthew's "Anointed" [Christed] Son of Man (Jesus) into John's version of Christ which was 'God clothed in flesh' - Very Very different status!! This theology has overtaken Matthew's, Mark's and Luke's versions of Jesus as a man "Anointed" by GOD, and turned Him into GOD Incarnate. Hellenistic mythology - a Hero born of a god and a mortal woman!
User avatar
The Beast
Posts: 1403
Joined: July 7th, 2013, 10:32 pm

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by The Beast »

All gnostic and esoteric reaction or what is an evolution of thought in Judea can be traced to shortly before or during the 1st century. Efforts by the Romans via the Syrians to Hellenized the Jews can be seen in the actual instruction given to Herod by Nicolaus of Damascus. It is known that Nicolaus lived in Judea for 30 years and his influence extended to Herod’s sons. Nicolaus philosophy can be said to be Aristotelian. During the times of Christ, Judea could have been two different philosophical countries divided by the Jordan river as west bank and east bank.The transfiguration of Christ and his baptism came at the region of Perea just before Jesus triumphant entrance in Jerusalem. It is in Perea where Jesus has the most followers from the Reuben, Gad and Menasseh tribes and, it could be that Bethany of the west bank was the last place he visited before entering Jerusalem. For years after his death, his followers attended Temple ceremonies together with the other Jews until the Temple’s destruction following the great revolt. The geography of thought after the diaspora is interesting as we have Kabbalah followers in Spain and Gnostics in South France together with the overall evolution of the Middle East centered at Syria and Alexandria. It is hard to say where the others were or if they were slaves... mostly slaves.
Platos stepchild
Posts: 545
Joined: July 19th, 2014, 9:58 pm

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Platos stepchild »

The argument is that, if there's a God then why does evil exist. My question is, why do we suppose that God and evil must preclude one another? First demonstrate to me why that should be the case, and then maybe I can answer the titular question .
User avatar
Clive Staples Lewis
Posts: 351
Joined: August 18th, 2013, 1:36 pm

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Clive Staples Lewis »

Platos stepchild wrote:The argument is that, if there's a God then why does evil exist. My question is, why do we suppose that God and evil must preclude one another? First demonstrate to me why that should be the case, and then maybe I can answer the titular question .
Precisely.
Platos stepchild
Posts: 545
Joined: July 19th, 2014, 9:58 pm

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Platos stepchild »

I ask that this group consider the following two statements as being true: (1): that God, as traditionally understood in such philosophical discussions does exist; and that, (2): evil also exists. Surely the titular question presumes that a purely good and perfect God would only create a purely good and perfect world. Actually, I lied. I want you to consider a third statement to be true: most people believe that our world is sorely imperfect.

Hence the problem of evil. It is predicated upon the tacit assumption that imperfection cannot arise from perfection. This has put countless true believers in quite the quandary: how to justify their faith in light of the **** going on all around them. While I do not deny or trivialize evil, or even the possibility of a good God, I do deny that tacit assumption which has long bedeviled theodicy. I contend that perfection is nothing of the sort if imperfection cannot flower from it.

How can God be all-knowing if (He) doesn't know what imperfection is like? And, if God knows what imperfection is like, that's only because such exists, in order for (Him) to know it. The admittedly counter-intuitive conclusion is that if evil didn't exist, there could be no God. That's because God wouldn't therefore be all-knowing. This certainly isn't the "God as traditionally understood in [p]hilosophical discussions".

-- Updated July 24th, 2015, 4:11 am to add the following --

Please do not reply to this post. its a mistake.
Ruskin
Posts: 1573
Joined: March 30th, 2014, 2:18 pm

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Ruskin »

If God created a perfect paradise of a universe where evil didn't exist then there would be no freewill and a universe where there is no freewill would be worse than the one God actually created. Not that atheists believe in freewill so it's a moot point for them.
User avatar
Alec Smart
Posts: 671
Joined: June 28th, 2015, 12:28 pm

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Alec Smart »

Ruskin wrote:If God created a perfect paradise of a universe where evil didn't exist then there would be no freewill
How did you arrive at this conclusion?
Smart by name and Alec by nature.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021