If there is a God, why is there evil?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Belinda
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Post by Belinda »

James1951, I agree that pain and suffering can stimulate beneficial change. However, please refer to the sufferings of Biblical Job whose sufferings were non-productive, as one famous example of the many sufferings in the world that are non-productive and many of which cannot be relieved by medical, engineering, political, empathetic or any other means.

Perhaps the one exception that can relieve suffering the practice of yoga when it is as thorough as the original yoga. Unfortunately to do yoga of this quality is a long study, often over a lifetime, and is incompatible with living in the world. I can provide a reference for this.
It is interesting however that much of the goodness Jesus taught involved easing suffering. If we have no suffering how do we express ourlove. If no one hungers or thirsts who is there to give drink and food to? WHo is there to comfort in sickness or in prison?
The claim that suffering is justifiable because it provides the opportunity for more fortunate persons to be charitable is obscene. Jesus never taught that suffering is justifiable for this reason.The miraculous cures wrought by Jesus are nowadays often held to be regrettable inclusions in the Gospels.
Last edited by Belinda on August 20th, 2009, 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ape
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Post by ape »

whitetrshsoldier wrote:If the bible can't be read literally, then it means whatever I want it to.
And then your reading is included as one of the right readings!:)
WTS: If that's true, it's worthless.
ape: Or it is worthmost!
If you have ALL religion, you might as well have NONE!
If you have none, you might as well have all!
That is why a person who respect ALL is described as being NO Respector of persons!
Is why KIDS know if no one speaks when ONE is guilty, than ALL might as well be and ARE guilty!!!!
See?
SO THE KEY Q IS still the same:
DO YOU LOVE YOURSELF AS WORTHLESS OR WORTH LESS and as worthy?
Are you still worth something when you are worth less than me?
I am!
My worthlessness is worthy!
My worth is unimaginable, off the charts!
In other words, wts, without the Worth of Love for YOURSELF, you can't win even when you win, you are still wrong to you even when you are right, you are still worthless to you when you are worthy! Well, if your worthiness is worthless, what worthlessness is your worthlessness worth?
So even when God is good and not evilto you, you still can't take it!
Why?
You know why!
You MUST have a prior problem! Your problem is not God at all, right?
You know who it is!
I know how hard it is, my friend, to give up hating myself when loving me meant that i wd automatically by default also love my former hated enemy!
God once offered a man anything he wanted but God wd give his hated neighbor double. The man thought for just a few moments longer of his hated neighbor, then replied to God: Poke out one of my eyes!
wts:
If the bible is worthless, so is everything it preaches. If everything it preaches is worthless, so is the person who 'supposedly' preached it.
ape: But in Love of the worthless and the worthy, what you throw away is what I will make into a diamond, what you ditch i will make into pitch, who you think is a nobody I will see as everybody, who you think is rubbish I will make in to royal british, what you away fling, I will make into bling!:)
WTS:End of story.
ape: See? The same end of yours is the very beginning of mine!:)That was the end of the beginning of the beginning of the beginning!
Start of story!SOS!Story just beginning!
whitetrshsoldier wrote:p.s. Ziggy Marley should go hit the bong some more. Then maybe he could go and die off like his idiot father, and I would never have to hear him speak or sing again. Mindless idiots.
ape: Hmmmm Another valid opinion among an infinity of valid opinions, :) ---the only problem being if we have the Idiocy of Hate or Disrespect for mindless idiots.:(
Last edited by ape on August 24th, 2009, 12:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
Belinda
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Post by Belinda »

If the bible can't be read literally, then it means whatever I want it to. If that's true, it's worthless.
(Whitetrshsoldier)

The Bible can be read literally, but would you not get more sense out of it when you know what the writers of the Bible intended by what they wrote?What a writer intends is not the same as what a reader understands.
Would you not get more benefit from the Bible if you know what Jesus is most likely himself to have said, and what is more likely to have been inserted by persons other than Jesus, but attributed to Jesus? And why such other persons inserted these extra bits? And what use if any these extra bits are to a modern person struggling to understand life?

Whatever you want the Bible to mean is coloured by your experience of interpretation of the Bible. Your interpretation of the Bible(or any other famous text) is got from your background of peers, teachers, family etc. What is the best background for a Biblical scholar to have ?
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whitetrshsoldier
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Post by whitetrshsoldier »

Belinda wrote:
If the bible can't be read literally, then it means whatever I want it to. If that's true, it's worthless.
(Whitetrshsoldier)

The Bible can be read literally, but would you not get more sense out of it when you know what the writers of the Bible intended by what they wrote?What a writer intends is not the same as what a reader understands.
Would you not get more benefit from the Bible if you know what Jesus is most likely himself to have said, and what is more likely to have been inserted by persons other than Jesus, but attributed to Jesus? And why such other persons inserted these extra bits? And what use if any these extra bits are to a modern person struggling to understand life?

Whatever you want the Bible to mean is coloured by your experience of interpretation of the Bible. Your interpretation of the Bible(or any other famous text) is got from your background of peers, teachers, family etc. What is the best background for a Biblical scholar to have ?
Belinda,

I understand what you mean, but if that's true, it could not be the "word" of god. In this case, it would be whatever I felt it should be at any given time. Suppose I mature and need a passage or scripture to mean something new with age; does it?

That is nonsense! If it were true, what a meaningless text it would be. I have no use for another loosely strung together document containing poems and indictements of me as a worthless man. I hear enough of that in this world already between Ape and anybody who doesn't agree with my political ideology!!!
"I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings! I'm obviously just insecure with the ineptitudes of my logic and rational faculties. Forgive me - I'm a "lost soul", blinded by my "ignorant belief" that there's such a thing as reality and truth in the world"
ape
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Post by ape »

whitetrshsoldier wrote:.. I hear enough of that in this world already between Ape and anybody who doesn't agree with my political ideology!!!
I KNOW you are worth everything to me!:)
So your worthlessness is quite priceless: more priceless than any priceless pearl!:)
Faith
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Post by Faith »

Belinda-

What the doos is progressive Christianity??!!!!! That's the most bogus thing I've ever heard. Christianity or Christian stanslates to "Christ Follower" meaning you believe in Jesus Christ coming down to Earth from god the father as a propition for our sin. And Jesus was a manifestation of God trinity. You can't be "Christian" and not believe in Christ and therefore the God who sent him and the characteristics hre claims.

THAT WOULDN'T BE CALLED CHRISTIAN!! that would be some newage bish.
Faith
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Post by Faith »

Ape- I respect that everything you write is backed up by scripture.
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Alun
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Post by Alun »

Belinda wrote:I have not.

Presumably if God is all-powerful he could do anything including making a world devoid of suffering.Since there is no known world that is devoid of suffering then there is no such entity as an all-powerful God.
Your previous argument was indeed making the fallacy pretty directly. This one makes it implicitly. Evil, to us, is not necessarily absolute evil; perhaps, from God's perspective, it is better (good) for the universe to have evil as it appears to us. Therefore, again, you cannot conclude that God is not good just because we see evil.
whitetrshsoldier wrote:If the bible can't be read literally, then it means whatever I want it to. If that's true, it's worthless.

If the bible is worthless, so is everything it preaches. If everything it preaches is worthless, so is the person who 'supposedly' preached it.

End of story.
Err...? Is a poem worthless? Fantasy story? Philosophical argument? The bible has all of these things even if it wasn't meant literally.
"I have nothing new to teach the world" -Mohandas "Mahatma" Gandhi
Belinda
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Post by Belinda »

Belinda,

I understand what you mean, but if that's true, it could not be the "word" of god.
(Whitetrshsoldier)

Is the Bible the word of God, or is that just what some people say about the Bible?
Belinda
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Post by Belinda »

Your previous argument was indeed making the fallacy pretty directly. This one makes it implicitly. Evil, to us, is not necessarily absolute evil; perhaps, from God's perspective, it is better (good) for the universe to have evil as it appears to us. Therefore, again, you cannot conclude that God is not good just because we see evil.
Are you saying that this is the best of all possible worlds, or are you saying that God moves in mysterious ways?

I conclude that neither of those gods are good. Good is a human category.If God fits one of those two descriptions, then God is not good. The God that is worthy of worship, for me, is a God of love, not a God who justifies suffering.
Belinda
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Post by Belinda »

Belinda,

I understand what you mean, but if that's true, it could not be the "word" of god.
(Whitetrshsoldier)

Is the Bible the word of God, or is that just what some people say about the Bible?

The story of God as somewhat confusingly told through the Bible,
is not a story of an unchanging idea of God.
The creator God (referred to in earlier Biblical texts as 'El') is a distant character,
a sky god. Later, God is known as Jahweh who is personal, ethical,
and walks on the Earth and meets and talks to Moses and other prophets.
This may seem incredible to us today, but at the time when the beliefs were held,
it was common for gods to be present on the Earth, often on holy hilltops,
or sometimes in thunder and lightning.Or so it was thought.

Jahweh began as a god of a warrior nation fighting for its life.
He was characterised, however, unlike the gods of other nations in the Middle East,
as the only god who would not tolerate the worship of other gods within his own community.
This monotheism gave the Jews and Israelites national strength.

Later still at the time when the brightest and best Israelites were deported to Babylon,
the prophet Jeremiah explained how the sorrows of the deportees could be used
to internalise Jahweh as a god of not only justice (which he always had been, )
but also as a god of peace, pity, reconciliation, mercy, wisdom and tolerance--
'love' to put it briefly.

This was a big change in thinking which was revived by Jesus about four centuries later,
and is due, I hope, to be revived again.
Suppose I mature and need a passage or scripture to mean something new with age; does it?
Not for me, Soldier, and I guess , not for you. For me what satisfies me is the interpretation by a great historian of religion and ideas. Others are satisfied with the poetry in the Bible or other literature. Others are satisfied with religious rituals. There are others who are satisfied with religious art and music. Some people are satisfied with obedience to some doctrine or other. What lights your candle?
That is nonsense! If it were true, what a meaningless text it would be. I have no use for another loosely strung together document containing poems and indictements of me as a worthless man.
According to Jesus and Buddha no person is worthless. You yourself are, to me, very worthwhile because you are so honest and express yourself clearly and with sincerity.I don't remember that much about the Bible texts;is there a text that indicts you and me as worthless?Are you referring to original sin?

As for original sin, we all have feet of clay, you and me included.This does not make us worthless, as Jesus would be quick to point out.

Whitetrshsoldier, I copied this from you in another thread. I do hope you don't mind and that this is not against forum rules.
There is no compelling argument that explains an obligation for me to serve others. I am free to do it voluntarily, which I have and continue to do. But I am not required, by anybody at anytime.
This is what I mean by internalising God, and it seems to me that you are advanced enough to have done just that.
Last edited by Belinda on August 21st, 2009, 8:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
Belinda
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Post by Belinda »

What the doos is progressive Christianity??!!!!!
Faith , you have to find out for yourself if you want to learn about it.It is your choice whether or not you stick with a fixed idea, or embrace change.
james1951
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Post by james1951 »

Belinda wrote:James1951, I agree that pain and suffering can stimulate beneficial change. However, please refer to the sufferings of Biblical Job whose sufferings were non-productive, as one famous example of the many sufferings in the world that are non-productive and many of which cannot be relieved by medical, engineering, political, empathetic or any other means.

Perhaps the one exception that can relieve suffering the practice of yoga when it is as thorough as the original yoga. Unfortunately to do yoga of this quality is a long study, often over a lifetime, and is incompatible with living in the world. I can provide a reference for this.
It is interesting however that much of the goodness Jesus taught involved easing suffering. If we have no suffering how do we express ourlove. If no one hungers or thirsts who is there to give drink and food to? WHo is there to comfort in sickness or in prison?
The claim that suffering is justifiable because it provides the opportunity for more fortunate persons to be charitable is obscene. Jesus never taught that suffering is justifiable for this reason.The miraculous cures wrought by Jesus are nowadays often held to be regrettable inclusions in the Gospels.
Any suffering can be beneficial. We learn from suffering. We learn patience. We learn endurance. If it don't kill you it will make you stronger.
It does not mean that suffering is good. It just means that sometimes when life gives you lemons you can use that as an opportunity to make lemonade.

That is the mistake so many people make of taking things in the wrong context.

People might think god sends people to hell for not doing what he says. Not true. The things he tells us not to do will cause us harm and all god does is keep saying dont do that it will hurt you.

I find this analagy useful.

A mother tells her child "do not play on the street". The child disobeys a truck comes along and kills him.

The mother did not look out the windows see her child disobey, call a trucking company to run over her child for disobeying her. That is how people think of god.

The mother told her child not to do that because it was dangerous and harmful just like god tells us not to do bad things because it is dangerous and harmful. When we do them and get hurt we blame god for it when all along god was just trying to warn us.

If the child gets off with cuts and cruises that suffering may be good if it teaches him not to play on the road.

Or a needle. I hear children scream as if they are being killed when doctors try to give them a needle. But that little pain and suffering could prevent them from getting a horrible or deadly disease.

I am not saying suffering in and of itself is good. But we can benefit from it if we are wise.

Suffering pain often is a warning to fix something that could be very harmful or even deadly if we do not tend to it.

I am sure there is a bible verse something to that effect about but i cant remember it right now.

The bible is full of such wise information if you are willing to look at it in the right context.
james1951
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Post by james1951 »

Belinda wrote:
Belinda,

I understand what you mean, but if that's true, it could not be the "word" of god.
(Whitetrshsoldier)

Is the Bible the word of God, or is that just what some people say about the Bible?
Satan tempted Jesus with the bible (gods words) the serpent tempted adam and eve with gods words.

Its not who says the words or where they are written, but the spirit in which those words are read which is important.

The bible is the word of god because many of the people who wrote those words were trying to the best of their ability to understand what the "right\good" thing was to do. And they wrote what they thought the spirit of goodness and rightness was telling them. But they were only people. God can only speak to us, inasmuch as we are able and willing to hear and understand him.

We are like children , it takes time for a child to grow up and learn from experience and wisdom that which the parents sometimes has to enforce with stern measures when they do not yet understand and must simply obey because the parent says so "or else".
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Alun
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Post by Alun »

Belinda wrote:Are you saying that this is the best of all possible worlds, or are you saying that God moves in mysterious ways?
I am saying that it is possible this is the best of all possible worlds.
Belinda wrote:I conclude that neither of those gods are good. Good is a human category.If God fits one of those two descriptions, then God is not good. The God that is worthy of worship, for me, is a God of love, not a God who justifies suffering.
Love would not be what love is if suffering did not exist, so I find that to be a pretty strange statement.
"I have nothing new to teach the world" -Mohandas "Mahatma" Gandhi
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