If there is a God, why is there evil?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Ranvier
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Ranvier »

We are used to talking about "God" in certain terms (religious perspective), where often we forget "what" we want to learn to "understand". As the equation indicates, "God" is the energy from which the human consciousness had risen. It's that consciousness that may allow us to perceive the good and evil of physical existence that we "chose" to experience as "creation" and because of it, we choose to become better to evolve to become more conscious, more like God in our wisdom... good.

There can't be nothingness... can't because energy exists and can't be destroyed, and since we are part of the energy neither can we be "destroyed". Even the concept of "zero" is illusive to us, where having "zero apples" on the palm of our hand, is NOT nothingness because we are left with the word for such concept and the "taste" in our mind. Our being, was, is, and will always be... only wake up to a different "dream" of consciousness.

-- Updated August 26th, 2017, 10:12 pm to add the following --

... had anyone ever wondered, how come we "learn" certain knowledge without any real effort in learning. Some things just come to be, as in a 4 year old beginning to play an instrument. Sure, we can attribute such phenomena to genetics but is that really all that is?

-- Updated August 26th, 2017, 10:34 pm to add the following --

It's difficult to prove such hypothesis because our human consciousness did not have that much time to evolve but such conclusions "naturally" come to my mind without any effort. It can be due to imagination that may come from genetics because that's what offers the most logical conclusion. But there are times in life that one can be fooled by own mind in perception that one had the knowledge that was temporarily "forgotten", as in forgetting the name of the famous actor that is at the tip of the tongue. But all one has to do is to close ones eyes for a moment and concepts appear out of "nowhere", sometimes quite brilliant in case of Einstein or Tesla.

-- Updated August 26th, 2017, 10:45 pm to add the following --

I'm reading my own words... I would never compare myself to Einstein or Tesla. I was just "brainstorming" and content may appear as self indulgent.
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Socrateaze
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Socrateaze »

Misty wrote:God "IS" "I AM" --- "I AM" created time as humans know time, therefore, not subject to time, "I AM" is not subject to his creation. Creation is subject to "I AM"
I don't believe in God, I'm more agnostic. "I AM" should rather be "We Create." We shape god in our image, which detracts his true existence. This is why we ask the question "If there is a God, why is there evil?" The universe has its own laws, yet when we put it in our "religion box" we come up with these silly questions. If we were to approach the OP question from an agnostic point of view, it won't hold water and we would see it for the foolish question it is.

We create god and for some reason I think the true god is out there unable to break through to us because of the way we anthropomorphize him/her. We shouldn't be asking questions to god, we rather should shut up and try to figure out why things are exactly the way they are. Instead we have the conceit to think the fault lies with "god" whereas the fault actually lies with us. To me there are two "gods," twins if you will. The one is a shadow from the minds of men and pleases us most of the time; the other is the real "god," which because of this just cannot break through to us.
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Ranvier
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Ranvier »

Socrateaze

Well said... although... "I AM" should rather be "We Create." is more getting into the Atheistic realm, rather than Agnostic. You must agree that the Universe was here before "our creation" of "God".

What Misty wrote, is beautiful in simplicity and accuracy.

-- Updated August 27th, 2017, 6:08 am to add the following --

General recipient

We are "of Energy" (God) and our destiny is to participate in that creation or descend to the chaos of "darkness" in abyss of entropy of the "dark space".
Does this help in interpreting "God's "purpose" or will there be a myriad of contention?

*Entropy used as the natural tendency of matter (particle-wave) to shift towards the kinetic energy.
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Socrateaze
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Socrateaze »

Ranvier wrote:Socrateaze

Well said... although... "I AM" should rather be "We Create." is more getting into the Atheistic realm, rather than Agnostic. You must agree that the Universe was here before "our creation" of "God".

What Misty wrote, is beautiful in simplicity and accuracy.

-- Updated August 27th, 2017, 6:08 am to add the following --

General recipient

We are "of Energy" (God) and our destiny is to participate in that creation or descend to the chaos of "darkness" in abyss of entropy of the "dark space".
Does this help in interpreting "God's "purpose" or will there be a myriad of contention?

*Entropy used as the natural tendency of matter (particle-wave) to shift towards the kinetic energy.
Yes, I cannot quite find a box to put myself in. I find my views shifting from time to time and have a hard ... time confining myself to one credo or path. Maybe god just doesn't see evil the way we do. Again, our wishes get in the way. You said you "painted the wind" once, wherein you stated that good cannot exist without evil and that god has to be good. But what if all that we see as evil just passes by god as an act of nature, where we create theater to appeal against nature?
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Misty
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Misty »

If there is a God, why is there evil?

youtube.com - type in: Peter Hiett Why does God tolerate evil?
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.
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Socrateaze
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Socrateaze »

Misty wrote:If there is a God, why is there evil?

youtube.com - type in: Peter Hiett Why does God tolerate evil?
So you're telling me god and the angels were asleep when the "enemy" did this? Don't we have a better explanation? Maybe things just are the way they are, because that's the way the universe works. Like I say, we anthropomorphize god and that's why we're confused.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Ranvier »

I don't want to do it but it's easier to describe things in terms that we already know, so let me use religious perspective for a moment...

Take Adam and Eve story as the "choice" of human consciousness to bite the apple from the "tree of understanding". "Knowledge" of something is not the same as "understanding" of that knowledge. We can easily "understand" that we can't get through a glass window without breaking it or opening a window. Whereas we can observe a fly continuing to strike the glass indefinitely in an attempt to get through. Similarly, we all know that killing each other is not a good idea but how many wars must be fought before we can actually "understand"? One actually has to participate in a war to comprehend. This is the human experience that we "choose" in the process to gain understanding of the "God's" mechanism of creation. Good and evil means something to us only because we are mortal in our physical form but "God" or energy just "creates" the beauty of our Universe for our consciousness to witness such creation and learn in this physical form.

Two millennia have past and Christians still don't understand "why" Jesus had to "die" for our inherent "sin". How in the world would a death of Jesus supposed to absolve humanity from that sin? Well, the sin is the inherent desire of all life to persist (in spite of the 5 extinction level events on our planet) in self preservation of "feeling" superior or better than some other life form. We actually had to kill the "God" himself to understand the audacity of selfishness of our human existence.

Does this help?
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Socrateaze
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Socrateaze »

Ranvier wrote:I don't want to do it but it's easier to describe things in terms that we already know, so let me use religious perspective for a moment...

Take Adam and Eve story as the "choice" of human consciousness to bite the apple from the "tree of understanding". "Knowledge" of something is not the same as "understanding" of that knowledge. We can easily "understand" that we can't get through a glass window without breaking it or opening a window. Whereas we can observe a fly continuing to strike the glass indefinitely in an attempt to get through. Similarly, we all know that killing each other is not a good idea but how many wars must be fought before we can actually "understand"? One actually has to participate in a war to comprehend. This is the human experience that we "choose" in the process to gain understanding of the "God's" mechanism of creation. Good and evil means something to us only because we are mortal in our physical form but "God" or energy just "creates" the beauty of our Universe for our consciousness to witness such creation and learn in this physical form.

Two millennia have past and Christians still don't understand "why" Jesus had to "die" for our inherent "sin". How in the world would a death of Jesus supposed to absolve humanity from that sin? Well, the sin is the inherent desire of all life to persist (in spite of the 5 extinction level events on our planet) in self preservation of "feeling" superior or better than some other life form. We actually had to kill the "God" himself to understand the audacity of selfishness of our human existence.

Does this help?
I'm sure Christ didn't die for our sins. I don't have sin, just experience.

Perhaps the reason a fly keeps bumping against the window, is because it doesn't have thumbs to open it. If you didn't have arms, how would you open a window? Flies often find holes to crawl through; I hope we find one to escape this religious paradise-prison.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Misty »

Socrateaze wrote:
Misty wrote:If there is a God, why is there evil?

youtube.com - type in: Peter Hiett Why does God tolerate evil?
So you're telling me god and the angels were asleep when the "enemy" did this? Don't we have a better explanation? Maybe things just are the way they are, because that's the way the universe works. Like I say, we anthropomorphize god and that's why we're confused.

Did you listen to the whole sermon? By your reaction I venture to say you did not.
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.
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Ranvier
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Ranvier »

Socratease

...I admit, I did not :oops:

Previous post
I would ask someone for help... certainly I wouldn't try to break it with my head. It's a short prison sentence to be sure, especially in the perspective of billions of years of our planet's history or the Universe.

I will go to the video now...
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Socrateaze
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Socrateaze »

Misty wrote:
Socrateaze wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


So you're telling me god and the angels were asleep when the "enemy" did this? Don't we have a better explanation? Maybe things just are the way they are, because that's the way the universe works. Like I say, we anthropomorphize god and that's why we're confused.

Did you listen to the whole sermon? By your reaction I venture to say you did not.
You assume correctly. I have a vast knowledge of the bible and the occult and follow a left-hand, agnostic/atheistic path. I prefer to steer clear from the practice of religion or the belief in anything. I know the parable well and also the arguments. Therefore, I do not wish to be directed to scripture, since I probably know it better than most on this forum. I stand by what I say: as long as we anthropomorphize god, we will never understand anything.

The OP question shouldn't be "If there is a God, why is there evil?" it should be, "If YOUR god exists, why is there evil." Clearly THAT god does not exist.

-- Updated August 27th, 2017, 8:04 am to add the following --
Ranvier wrote:Socratease

...I admit, I did not :oops:

Previous post
I would ask someone for help... certainly I wouldn't try to break it with my head. It's a short prison sentence to be sure, especially in the perspective of billions of years of our planet's history or the Universe.

I will go to the video now...
You will ask someone to open it for you? A fly cannot ask someone to open it for him. But ... someone can see the fly is trying to get out and open it for him. ........

Why don't we open the windows for the flies?
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Steve3007
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Steve3007 »

Misty. I watched the whole sermon and tried to make some brief notes:


The metaphor is: weeds and crops = evil and good. He talks a lot about "tears", which apparently means weeds.

Let both grow together until harvest. Then store both in the barn. Then get rid of the weeds once they're in the barn. Don't pull up the weeds before that because in so doing you might accidentally pull up the good crops too.

There's no point in anybody being tortured in hell for their evil acts. The evil acts (the weeds) simply need to be destroyed. The evil is in the act, not in the person. So God will destroy the act not the person.


It was difficult to glean much else from the sermon because of the guy's shouty style of delivery. But have I got the gist of it there?
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Ranvier »

Misty

I watched the video... another sermon about trust in the judgement.

I rather return to my Agnostic logic apart from the Theistic interpretation of religious texts.
Simply put, I can't fight evil without becoming evil myself but to allow evil to "understand" on its own. You can teach people knowledge but you can't make them understand. Perhaps that's why we still have so many "believers" in the military.

Beside, the issue that Atheists raise is the "Natural Evil" of Earthquakes; Hurricanes; Flood etc. I don't want to debate religion, I respect everyone's perspective. I just think that we were "given" a brain to be used, not just follow teachings dedicated to a different target audience of people thousands of years ago.

-- Updated August 27th, 2017, 8:31 am to add the following --
Socrateaze wrote: Why don't we open the windows for the flies?
Because we're human, we are better.

I'm sure that alien species wouldn't try to open windows for us either. That would actually be interesting to see, from a scientific point of view as to the "mindset" parallel evolutionary path of far more advanced civilization (since it's not us getting to them)
Steve3007
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Steve3007 »

If that is the general gist of it, then I think Mr Hiett's point can be summarized like this:

In a field, weeds and crops grow together in such a way that it's difficult for the farmer to pull up a weed without also pulling up a crop. So he or she lets them all grow and, when it comes time for harvest, pulls them all up and puts them all in the barn. Then he can much more easily get rid of the weeds.

Translaton of the metaphor:

Weed = evil act
Crop = good act
Farmer = God
Harvest = death
Barn = the place we all go after we're dead

A possible objection that someone might come up with:

Farmers are not omnipotent. God is. So even though a farmer might find it difficult to pull up the weeds without accidentally pulling up the crops, God should have no trouble.

A possible objection to that objection:

God created a universe which is not chaotic - which follows universal laws. Given that He did that, He also accepted that there are complex webs of cause and effect in that universe. The evil acts of someone like Hitler (Godwin's Law alert) are part of that web. God does not want to destroy the order of the universe by intervening to stop specific evil acts and therefore create inconsistencies in the web, leading to a chaotic universe. i.e. Hitler exists as a direct result of the laws of physics and the order in the universe.

(Sorry Ranvier, I talked over you there. I was intending this to be a continuation of my previous post.)
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Socrateaze »

Ranvier wrote:Misty

I watched the video... another sermon about trust in the judgement.

I rather return to my Agnostic logic apart from the Theistic interpretation of religious texts.
Simply put, I can't fight evil without becoming evil myself but to allow evil to "understand" on its own. You can teach people knowledge but you can't make them understand. Perhaps that's why we still have so many "believers" in the military.

Beside, the issue that Atheists raise is the "Natural Evil" of Earthquakes; Hurricanes; Flood etc. I don't want to debate religion, I respect everyone's perspective. I just think that we were "given" a brain to be used, not just follow teachings dedicated to a different target audience of people thousands of years ago.

-- Updated August 27th, 2017, 8:31 am to add the following --
Socrateaze wrote: Why don't we open the windows for the flies?
Because we're human, we are better.

I'm sure that alien species wouldn't try to open windows for us either. That would actually be interesting to see, from a scientific point of view as to the "mindset" parallel evolutionary path of far more advanced civilization (since it's not us getting to them)
It is more likely that aliens will open windows than god would. Or perhaps there are open windows, but we're not interested in them?
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