If there is a God, why is there evil?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Fooloso4
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Fooloso4 »

Eaglerising:
One thing I have noticed about the discussions about whether God exists or not is that neither side has considered the possibility that they are both are based upon belief and are wrong! What if what is commonly called “God” is an illusion created by thought? What if the primal source of everything is an unsolvable mystery that cannot be described, conceptualized, or imagined. Can we really imagine or conceptualize anything that has no beginning, always existed? The same applies to “infinity.”
One problem is that there is a tendency to move from the mystery to conceptualizing it and making claims about what follows from it. It is what is known as effing the ineffable. The ball starts rolling down the hill as soon what we do not know is called the “primal source”.
Eaglerising
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Eaglerising »

Fooloso4 – I totally agree with you there. Thought being the authority it is, has great difficulty in admitting it doesn't know something. So it has something to work with such as a name or image. This is why the "primal source" has to remain a mystery. There is a possibility that it is a mystery unto itself.

Another fault with thought is that everything that exists is governed by a set of immutable laws as opposed to some entity. IN other words, these laws cause life to be "self-governing."

And finally, thought cannot accept that everything serves a purpose, even what is viewed as being bad, wrong, and evil.
Belindi
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belindi »

Eaglerising wrote:
And finally, thought cannot accept that everything serves a purpose, even what is viewed as being bad, wrong, and evil.
But there are lots of things that don't purpose. In order to purpose the subject that purposes has to conceptualise what they purpose to do.
Eaglerising
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Eaglerising »

Anyone who understands life understands nothing in life is ever wasted.
Belindi
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belindi »

Eaglerising wrote:
Anyone who understands life understands nothing in life is ever wasted.
God! I so wish that were so.
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Felix
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Felix »

Eaglerising: And finally, thought cannot accept that everything serves a purpose, even what is viewed as being bad, wrong, and evil.
I would say everything has a reason for being which is not the same as saying everything has or serves a purpose. If you were to understand the purpose of everything, you would earn the right to make that claim, until then it's just a quaintly polished idea.
Anyone who understands life understands nothing in life is ever wasted.
That's good to know, I will stop bothering with recycling....
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Eaglerising
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Eaglerising »

Didn't the amount of trash we were accumulating eventually help us realize it's wise and profitable to recycle? A lot can be seen if we ask ourselves, "what purpose does this serve?" as opposed to judging it good, bad, or evil.

-- Updated May 21st, 2017, 7:00 am to add the following --

Couldn't a red traffic light, or the blare of a smoke alarm, or the reading on clock, or gossip be information? What separates information from data is the ability of it being comprehended. Finally, comprehension isn't the same thing as understanding. Comprehension is a product of thought, understanding isn't.
Fooloso4
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Fooloso4 »

Eaglerising:
And finally, thought cannot accept that everything serves a purpose, even what is viewed as being bad, wrong, and evil.
But this too is a thought, and one against which a lot of evidence can be gathered from nature. But of course, one can always think of some purpose to ascribe to what happens.
Eaglerising
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Eaglerising »

Fooloso4 – good point, because of the dichotomy of thought. Thus, we need to move beyond thought and use the absence of thought, consciousness.
Thought is fragmented and incomplete. On the other hand consciousness is whole, complete, and multidimensional. Once you start asking what is the purpose of illness or famine, you will be amazed at how many purposes both serve. Not only that, because you experienced it, it no longer becomes an issue of belief or disbelief. Understanding will replace thought, opinion and knowledge.
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KC43
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by KC43 »

Ok, so I joined this forum a few minutes ago and I'm not going to spend my night reading through 138 pages of text, but I would like to chuck in my 2 cents so I skipped to the last page. (By the way I'm christian so it comes from that point of few.)

I think the reason there is pain and suffering, and good and evil is simple. (Maybe because I got a watsapp message that my mom sent me but its still valid.) God didn't create the universe and all that so that humans could be happy. He made the universe to point back to him, to elevate his magnificence. ("For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him." -Colossians 1:16.) "God is more interested in Your character than he is in your comfort" a statement made by Rick Warren. It perfectly explains why we have Free will, Why there are trials, losses, gains, achievement, suffering and all such jazz and halapaloza. God created the universe, and humans are here now to be tested if I can put it like that. Who wants to spend an eternity with someone who happily commits murder, theft and other such things?

- Check out the interview by Paul Bradshaw with Rick Warren. Like I said I'm still new so I cant post URL's but check out "Mark corner's space" a small blog probably on the first page If you search "interview by Paul Bradshaw with Rick Warren."
Belindi
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belindi »

KC43 wrote:
"God is more interested in Your character than he is in your comfort" a statement made by Rick Warren. It perfectly explains why we have Free will, Why there are trials, losses, gains, achievement, suffering and all such jazz and halapaloza. God created the universe, and humans are here now to be tested if I can put it like that.
You did put it like that so obviously you can do so.

If your version of God is responsible for the full horrors of life , of which you are perhaps ignorant, then your God is not good but is a monster. I wonder if you are actually blaspheming God that you accuse Him of creating unimaginable suffering for the purpose of teaching someone a lesson.
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KC43
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by KC43 »

Belindi wrote:KC43 wrote:
"God is more interested in Your character than he is in your comfort" a statement made by Rick Warren. It perfectly explains why we have Free will, Why there are trials, losses, gains, achievement, suffering and all such jazz and halapaloza. God created the universe, and humans are here now to be tested if I can put it like that.
You did put it like that so obviously you can do so.

If your version of God is responsible for the full horrors of life , of which you are perhaps ignorant, then your God is not good but is a monster. I wonder if you are actually blaspheming God that you accuse Him of creating unimaginable suffering for the purpose of teaching someone a lesson.
I see your point and its my fault for not elaborating a bit more. I don't believe my God created evil and suffering and according to my Bible its humans who do (discounting natural disasters and such) but he does tolerate it. If there were no trials in a test it wouldn't be one. Freewill has its ups and downs; rich philanthropists spend their hard earned money not because someone told them to but because they want to, same with pedophiles, same with charities, same with scientists.
God loves his children but he is still Just and fair. There is a reason why Justice and Love appear together more often than not when the Bible talks about God.

Imagine yourself running a massive company put you have to hold every single persons hand showing them what to do, step by step, and do that maybe every single day for the rest of eternity. Not that that isn't possible but if there where no self autonomy then you might as well just fire everybody that works for you.

On your point about the infinite wrongs that exist, I believe that its a large matter pertaining to Point of view.
scenario one: A loved parent died two weeks ago, too early according to the doctors. "Why God have you taken my loved one from me!?, Its obvious that you hate me! You must be evil!"
scenario two: A loved parent died two weeks ago, too early according to the doctors. "Thank you God for ending the suffering that my parent has been living through for the last two months. I pray that you guide him to a better place than the one he was at."

See the point? Tragedy can be looked at through different lenses. And although real pain, sacrifice and Tragedy is way more gray than Illustrated here, it all boils down to how you take it and move on with it. Do you sulk and eventually sink into depression, or do you step back and recognize the possibility to move forward?
Belindi
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belindi »

Tragedy can be looked at through different lenses.
The Holocaust cannot be looked at through different lenses. The plagues that visited Job cannot be looked at through happy lenses.

-- Updated May 31st, 2017, 3:37 pm to add the following --

KC43, God is usually taken to be the Creator of everything so He did create suffering.

The best answer to the OP question is the Book of Job. You need to be able to understand this book , not as providing a standard answer(there isn't a standard answer) but as recommending that eternal God is too different from us for our comprehension to cope with the difference. It is therefore a waste of time looking for supernatural reasons for suffering which we can understand .
Eaglerising
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Eaglerising »

Belindi –
The Holocaust cannot be looked at through different lenses.
Suggestion for whatever it is worth. Rather than judge something, look to see what purpose the Holocaust served. If you do that you will see it entirely different. For example:

1. It allowed the world to see what happens when we are fearful of differences and blindly follow someone who wants to create a perfect race.
2. It allowed us to see the what happens when we are taught "what to think" rather than "how to think."
3. It provided the world an opportunity to see and learn the importance of compassion.
4. It allowed us to see the importance for not remaining silent about injustices and/or to oppose them.

These are just some of the purposes it served. Because people judge it rather than discover the lessons it served, they mistakenly "thought" there would never be another genocide. In turn, genocides continued, especially in Asia and Africa.

Eelindi – The plagues that visited Job cannot be looked at through happy lenses.
Most of the contents of the Bible need to be taken figuratively rather than literally. Most of the Bible is a collection of metaphors, allegories, parables, and symbolism. You are able to see this better if you take into consideration that most people were uneducated. Most doctors, scientist and lawyers understands the importance of SIMPLIFYING something when they are communicating with those less educated.
KC43, God is usually taken to be the Creator of everything so He did create suffering.
Humans created suffering, not God. Fear is the cause of suffering. We are fearful of not obtaining what we want. And if we obtain it, we are fearful of losing it.
Likewise, it was humans that created God and the Devil.
Belindi
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belindi »

Belindi –
The Holocaust cannot be looked at through different lenses.

Suggestion for whatever it is worth. Rather than judge something, look to see what purpose the Holocaust served. If you do that you will see it entirely different. For example:

1. It allowed the world to see what happens when we are fearful of differences and blindly follow someone who wants to create a perfect race.
2. It allowed us to see the what happens when we are taught "what to think" rather than "how to think."
3. It provided the world an opportunity to see and learn the importance of compassion.
4. It allowed us to see the importance for not remaining silent about injustices and/or to oppose them.
But none of those, or indeed any possible rationalisations, justifies the Nazi Holocaust. If God could have saved those people from the gas chambers then He should have done so. Rather say " I love God despite His powerlessness to save the people from the gas chambers".

Not, for Heavens sake, "because of His powerlessness to save people from the gas chambers "!

-- Updated June 1st, 2017, 3:17 am to add the following --

The plagues that visited Job have to be literal plagues or the story of Job is meaningless. There is no escape from the knowledge of suffering except by losing your soul to Pollyanna. Job did not ignore or escape suffering, Job was forced to accept suffering as we all must, and Job loved God despite suffering.
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