If there is a God, why is there evil?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Lacewing
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Lacewing »

Fanman wrote: Does it matter if the Bible verses are correct?
Okay, I'm not understanding why you would ask this, or what it has to do with what has been said. I think we're talking on two different channels. But yes, I would say that it's valuable for there to be accuracy and authenticity in whatever someone is basing their beliefs on and directing others to do as well.
Lacewing wrote:...god believers are continually interpreting and proclaiming what their idea of god sees and thinks and wants and feels, as well as what "his" plans were and are and continue to be.
Fanman wrote: I think they do this because God's plans are stated in the Bible.
So, which is it? A) Your earlier statement of "Men cannot with the limitations, expect see what God would see – neither are his plans known", or B) Your current statement that men can figure it out because "God's plans are stated in the Bible"?
Fanman wrote:What if they interpret God's plans correctly and in a way which makes sense?
So are we now dismissing your earlier statement: "Men cannot with the limitations, expect see what God would see – neither are his plans known"?
Vijaydevani
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Vijaydevani »

Fanman,

Can you see the contradiction inherent in the three statements of yours Lacewing has pointed out?

1.Men cannot with the limitations, expect see what God would see – neither are his plans known.

2.I think they (men) do this because God's plans are stated in the Bible.

3.Does it matter if the Bible verses are correct?

So there is no need for the bible verses to be correct. They must be followed.

Men must follow God's plan and try to follow God's plan.

However, God's plan cannot be known to man because of man's limitations.

But still man must follow God's plan. Which is unknown and cannot be known because of the limitations of man and because it is not important that the bible verses are correct.

Is this a fair summary?
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
Londoner
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Londoner »

Greatest I am
I do not want to be treated as God treats others just for not believing in him.

That eternal hell idea is quite vile.

When scriptures show God living by what he says then I will listen.

For now, a God who says do as I say and not as I do is not worthy of my spit.

As above, so below.

Would you condemn your children to eternal punishment just for not following you?

You will if you are as vile as your God.
If you do not think that the idea of a good God is consistent with this idea of eternal hell then you don't have to accept it. You are allowed to disagree with other theists; plenty do.

But if you ditch the idea of the good God altogether you just leaving yourself in a purely material universe. In that case, what are you doing when you use all that Old Testament language and describe the idea of Hell as being 'not worthy' or 'vile'? Do you think those descriptions are true? That they refer to transcendental values that are real? (Or are you just expressing your psychological state, with no suggestion that anyone else need agree with you?)

Ideas like eternal Hell are the consequence of people like yourself making judgements. If you assert there is something more than the material 'what is', i.e. if there also exist transcendental values like 'good', then (unlike the material world) they will be eternal. And since within this transcendental value 'good' (i.e 'in heaven') there can be no evil, then those that aren't good can't ever be there. (As to what 'not being in heaven' would be like, that is a matter of speculation, sometimes involving fire and demons etc., sometimes not.)

Maybe you don't like that argument, but you need to come up with an alternative if you expect people to take your moral judgements seriously. Maybe you can do so - maybe you can't.

Meanwhile, I cannot tell if you have thought this through. Reading through your post as it stands, you just come across as a meta-god issuing a thundering condemnation of an inferior god of your own creation. But this is philosophy; you need to show your reasoning!

-- Updated December 11th, 2014, 5:48 am to add the following --

Fanman
God warned man that there would be consequences for knowing good and evil.
No he didn't.

He said not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil 'for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die' (which didn't happen).

He did not tell man the consequences of knowing good and evil, he couldn't since before they ate the fruit they would not have understood what he was talking about!

The actual consequences were two; what God did to them (expel them from Eden) but also:

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil

(He expels them from Eden so they did not become entirely like God by eating from the Tree of Life and living forever.)

So man has the knowledge. He does not require God's instruction book. Whether he can learn to live by that knowledge is another matter.
How and why he deals with those who commit evil is clearly evident in the Bible.
That just isn't true either.

First, the way God deals with those who commit evil is highly variable, it ranges from forgiveness to floods and fire. As such, it reflects different ideas amongst humans about how we should respond to evil.

Second, that evil deeds have evil consequences is a tautology, and not a helpful one. The problem we have in real life is that we do not necessarily recognise which deeds are evil. We can be mistaken or deceived, we can fool ourselves, often all our available choices seem to involve evil.

If the Bible just told 'clearly evident' stories it would be no use, because real life isn't 'clearly evident'. Instead, it provides a rich mix of stories - not always consistent - which we can use as tools when reflecting on our own situations. But the point is that we have to do the work.

So, that the BIble isn't 'clear' is blindingly obvious, from page 1. I think that those who refer most often to the Bible often trust that those they are talking to have never opened one, so they will be in no position to dispute their claims. I think that sometimes it is the other way round; those that most quote the Bible have rarely actually read it.
Fanman
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Fanman »

I've stated my case, by way of my comments and it seems that neither Lacewing, Vijaydevani or Londoner are capable of understanding what it is I'm saying in those comments. After re-reading my comments, I see no valid reason to continue this line of discussion. As it seems as though each of you cannot understand the simplicity of the way which God of the Bible deals with good and evil. Even though I've explained it to you.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Vijaydevani
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Vijaydevani »

Fanman wrote:I've stated my case, by way of my comments and it seems that neither Lacewing, Vijaydevani or Londoner are capable of understanding what it is I'm saying in those comments. After re-reading my comments, I see no valid reason to continue this line of discussion. As it seems as though each of you cannot understand the simplicity of the way which God of the Bible deals with good and evil. Even though I've explained it to you.
You have not stated your case. You have made a few contradictory statements which you do not seem to be able to clarify. But it is okay. A cop out is an acceptable form of evasion in any debate.
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
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Greatest I am
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Greatest I am »

Fanman wrote:Vijaydevani,
why does it matter? Do you agree with it? If not, why?
God warned man that there would be consequences for knowing good and evil. How and why he deals with those who commit evil is clearly evident in the Bible.
What is the consequence of not knowing good and evil?

Scriptures indicate that man would be mentally blind and too stupid to even know he is naked. Right?

Does almost all knowledge not need good and evil as adjectives for us to evaluate them?

Why did your God want to keep man stupid?

Regards DL

-- Updated December 11th, 2014, 9:48 am to add the following --

Londoner

Short answer. The Godhead I know cures all those he thinks defective. He does not kill or torture them like your God does.

Who has a good God and who has an evil God?

My God overcomes evil with good yet your God, from what you say, cannot even follow scriptures and allows evil to overcome him and makes him do evil.

Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Regards DL




Regards DL
Fanman
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Fanman »

Vijaydevani,
You have not stated your case. You have made a few contradictory statements which you do not seem to be able to clarify. But it is okay. A cop out is an acceptable form of evasion in any debate.
I disagree.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Vijaydevani
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Vijaydevani »

Fanman wrote:Vijaydevani,
You have not stated your case. You have made a few contradictory statements which you do not seem to be able to clarify. But it is okay. A cop out is an acceptable form of evasion in any debate.
I disagree.
Okay. Then why don't you clarify the contradictions I pointed out? Anyone will agree that the three statements you made are contradictory. I would love to know how you think they make sense together.
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
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LogicReasonEvidence
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by LogicReasonEvidence »

Because God is evil too.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Kacie
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Kacie »

Floyd wrote:If there is a God, why is there evil? Why do bad things happen to good people? Why is there so much needless suffering in the world, from natural disasters and such? Why would a loving God do this?
I think God gave us evil so that we can see the opposite of that. It's to open our minds and see alternatives to things. For example, if you only ever saw rocks, you would never know that trees existed. That would be sheltering our minds and one cannot exist without the other. If evil doesn't exist, then neither does good exist. Bad things happen to everyone, though you see it more in good people simply because they are good. They are purer than evil people, so to see something bad happen to a good person is extremely noticeable, because it isn't part of who they are. On the other hand, you don't really notice when bad things happen to bad people because the bad already IS a part of who they are. Now if you see something good happen to a bad person, you really notice it because as I said before, it isn't who they are. So it's not really that more bad things happen to good people than they do to bad people; it's just more noticeable in the good ones. Needless suffering...I'm not sure how to respond to that one. The term itself is something to ponder on: "needless suffering." It begs the question: "is suffering necessary?" That's the root of the issue, and if you think about it long enough, the answer is in what I said earlier. A loving God...well He is also a lonely God. Perhaps He needs some of us to return to His home, so that is why death exists.

I hope that answers your questions.
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LogicReasonEvidence
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by LogicReasonEvidence »

Kacie wrote:
Floyd wrote:If there is a God, why is there evil? Why do bad things happen to good people? Why is there so much needless suffering in the world, from natural disasters and such? Why would a loving God do this?
I think God gave us evil so that we can see the opposite of that. It's to open our minds and see alternatives to things. For example, if you only ever saw rocks, you would never know that trees existed. That would be sheltering our minds and one cannot exist without the other. If evil doesn't exist, then neither does good exist.
Nonsense! There could be a 'zero point' of equilibrium -neither good or bad just static against which we could know good exists. i.e. If the norm lacked evil we wouldn't necessarily need evil to know good is real.

Or if you disagree God could allow a little 'bad' (but not evil) to exist against which we contrast good. But he doesn't (assuming he is real) he allows massive evil to exist. If you were a good father would you stand by & let one of your children torture & murder a brother or sister because it might infringe on his free will? No of course you wouldn't! Not if you loved those children. So why should God if he really exists then?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by ByTor96 »

MyshiningOne wrote:
Floyd wrote:If there is a God, why is there evil? Why do bad things happen to good people? Why is there so much needless suffering in the world, from natural disasters and such? Why would a loving God do this?
I'm not trying to persuade anyone to follow a certain religion, but here's my idea on this:

When you look into a dark closet, what is usually the first thing you do? Turn on a light, maybe? You couldn't see without it, so now you are able to see everything around you. Everything's not quite as scary as before. I see that God works in a similar fashion.

If there was no darkness in the world, would there be any need for a higher power? There would be need for prayer, compassion, etc... It would be a world devoid of suffering, but there would also be no joy. Happiness cannot exist without sadness, just like a light in a hallway or closet cannot exist without the darkness to greet it.
I'm not so sure that's true. We are completely subjective when it comes to this because we can not know a world without suffering. I suppose the closest thing to paradise on Earth (and therefor an objective view a the world without suffering) would be a very long vacation that makes one forget anything else like the world one is accustomed to that holds work, responsibilities, etc. During this time one knows only bliss and relaxation. Each individual reacts differently to this situation however. For example, one man may be content with the same paradise for the rest of his life while another man may become extremely bored and feel as if he's in hell. Perhaps there isn't a possibility of a world without suffering because man creates suffering for himself. The world would be paradise if man was content with the blissful world that was given to him. ( Sorry I didn't mean to rant on your comment it just happened and the second part isn't directed at you necessarily).
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Greatest I am
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Greatest I am »

Kacie wrote:
Floyd wrote:If there is a God, why is there evil? Why do bad things happen to good people? Why is there so much needless suffering in the world, from natural disasters and such? Why would a loving God do this?
I think God gave us evil so that we can see the opposite of that. It's to open our minds and see alternatives to things. For example, if you only ever saw rocks, you would never know that trees existed. That would be sheltering our minds and one cannot exist without the other. If evil doesn't exist, then neither does good exist. Bad things happen to everyone, though you see it more in good people simply because they are good. They are purer than evil people, so to see something bad happen to a good person is extremely noticeable, because it isn't part of who they are. On the other hand, you don't really notice when bad things happen to bad people because the bad already IS a part of who they are. Now if you see something good happen to a bad person, you really notice it because as I said before, it isn't who they are. So it's not really that more bad things happen to good people than they do to bad people; it's just more noticeable in the good ones. Needless suffering...I'm not sure how to respond to that one. The term itself is something to ponder on: "needless suffering." It begs the question: "is suffering necessary?" That's the root of the issue, and if you think about it long enough, the answer is in what I said earlier. A loving God...well He is also a lonely God. Perhaps He needs some of us to return to His home, so that is why death exists.

I hope that answers your questions.
Your is the dualistic view. Yin and Yang thinking.

You should remember that Yin and Yang are compliments to each other. Like inside and outside. They are not opposite to each other as good and evil are.

Regards DL
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Cogito ergo sum »

Greatest I am wrote:
Kacie wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


I think God gave us evil so that we can see the opposite of that. It's to open our minds and see alternatives to things. For example, if you only ever saw rocks, you would never know that trees existed. That would be sheltering our minds and one cannot exist without the other. If evil doesn't exist, then neither does good exist. Bad things happen to everyone, though you see it more in good people simply because they are good. They are purer than evil people, so to see something bad happen to a good person is extremely noticeable, because it isn't part of who they are. On the other hand, you don't really notice when bad things happen to bad people because the bad already IS a part of who they are. Now if you see something good happen to a bad person, you really notice it because as I said before, it isn't who they are. So it's not really that more bad things happen to good people than they do to bad people; it's just more noticeable in the good ones. Needless suffering...I'm not sure how to respond to that one. The term itself is something to ponder on: "needless suffering." It begs the question: "is suffering necessary?" That's the root of the issue, and if you think about it long enough, the answer is in what I said earlier. A loving God...well He is also a lonely God. Perhaps He needs some of us to return to His home, so that is why death exists.

I hope that answers your questions.
Your is the dualistic view. Yin and Yang thinking.

You should remember that Yin and Yang are compliments to each other. Like inside and outside. They are not opposite to each other as good and evil are.

Regards DL


I'm curious as to why life and death are not complements to each other? Complement is meaning that it makes complete. I can see no other thing that completes life other than death. Life would be meaningless without death and death would meaningless without life. That is the epitomy of yin and yang.

-- Updated February 3rd, 2015, 11:05 pm to add the following --

The same is said with good and evil. They is no good without evil and no evil without good,they complete eachother.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Greatest I am »

Cogito ergo sum wrote:
Greatest I am wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Your is the dualistic view. Yin and Yang thinking.

You should remember that Yin and Yang are compliments to each other. Like inside and outside. They are not opposite to each other as good and evil are.

Regards DL


I'm curious as to why life and death are not complements to each other? Complement is meaning that it makes complete. I can see no other thing that completes life other than death. Life would be meaningless without death and death would meaningless without life. That is the epitomy of yin and yang.

-- Updated February 3rd, 2015, 11:05 pm to add the following --

The same is said with good and evil. They is no good without evil and no evil without good,they complete eachother.
Simplistically. Not in reality.

Do you hate those you love as much as you love them?

I did not think so.

No simplistic thinking please.

Regards DL
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